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***2021-2022 NBA Season Thread***


RonArtest15
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4 hours ago, Ball Security said:

Nine figures for Jalen Brunson?  I don’t know about that.  He was great last year on such a small contract.  But paying a guy 27.5M for a guy who’s never averaged 17 points a game?

 

NBA is ridiculous these days.

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10 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

Embiid and Jokic are AT LEAST as good post-defenders as the average center in Shaq's prime.

 

And in his prime Shaq didn't regularly have games with 30 points on 75% shooting against the worse centers in the league.

 

Are you really saying that Shaq would do better against the best centers in this era than he did against the worse centers when he played?

 

Shaq was a very good offensive rebounder in his day (e. g. in 1999 he had 4.3 ORBs per a game, tied with Elton Brand for the league lead which I believe is his highest ranking), but it isn't like he was head and shoulders above everybody else in the league (he tied Elton Brand in his highest rated year).  It is hard to believe that now he's going to come in an easily dominate the best centers in the league on the boards.  And 4.3 is his average so sort of what you'd expect him to do against an average player.  His best year is 4.7 ORBs/game but he's behind Rodman for the league lead and that's when is 21 and still in Orlando.

 

It isn't like Embiid and Jokic are small guys even by the standards of the guys that Shaq was playing against.  Vin Baker was the starting 5 on a good Seattle team in that era.

 

I'm sorry, but the idea that Shaq would somehow dominate the best centers today in a way that he didn't dominate the worse or even average centers during his career just isn't credible.  You are making Shaq into something he never was.

 

And just generally a player at the basket can't warp the defense a way the 3 point shooter does for two reasons:

 

1.  The 3 point shooter is warping over a larger area (anywhere along the 3 point line).  Somebody at the basket only warps in the direction of the basket.

 

2.  Because of the importance of shots close to the basket and rebounds warping away from the basket has more value.  When you bend the defense to the basket, you clog up the paint for the other players.

Shaq averaged 30.1 ppg and 15.4 rpg in the 2001 playoffs on 55.5% from the field. Off the top of my head I don’t know which centers he played. But he absolutely dominated in the playoffs in a way Embiid and Joker haven’t proved they can.


can we agree Shaq elevated his performance when it counted the most? 
 

Shaq was a transcendent player who shaped how other teams operated. Teams would sign big men to throw bodies at Shaq. Shaq would have to adjust to this current era (probably stay around the Orlando playing weight) but teams would also have to adjust to him. I don’t know the data on pace (which could skew rebounds one way or the other, if teams take more shots but shoot the same percentage it would still result in an increase of total rebounds in a game, who’s to say current players in this era could average the same rebound back then, which is why I don’t take that rebound stat you mentioned into account, it seems irrelevant due to lack of context, I digress) back then to now but I believe transcendent players transform the era they are in. The same way LeBron made heliocentric basketball a thing or Curry with elite 3 point shooting on ridiculous volume. 

 

Jokic had a great series this year tho.  Shaq killed Philly in the finals. Do you want to argue Embid and Jokic are better post defender than Mutumbo? 
 

TLDR

 

i agree Shaq would have to change on defense, I think his offensive impact would change the league enough that teams would have to adjust to him and he would still be a transcendent player. 

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21 hours ago, Ball Security said:

Nine figures for Jalen Brunson?  I don’t know about that.  He was great last year on such a small contract.  But paying a guy 27.5M for a guy who’s never averaged 17 points a game?


The Knicks like paying a premium for players coming off career best stats in contract years. 
 

They have no idea how to construct a roster. They just plug holes.

 

An incredibly frustrating team to follow.

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15 hours ago, Dr. Do Itch Big said:

Shaq averaged 30.1 ppg and 15.4 rpg in the 2001 playoffs on 55.5% from the field. Off the top of my head I don’t know which centers he played. But he absolutely dominated in the playoffs in a way Embiid and Joker haven’t proved they can.


can we agree Shaq elevated his performance when it counted the most? 
 

Shaq was a transcendent player who shaped how other teams operated. Teams would sign big men to throw bodies at Shaq. Shaq would have to adjust to this current era (probably stay around the Orlando playing weight) but teams would also have to adjust to him. I don’t know the data on pace (which could skew rebounds one way or the other, if teams take more shots but shoot the same percentage it would still result in an increase of total rebounds in a game, who’s to say current players in this era could average the same rebound back then, which is why I don’t take that rebound stat you mentioned into account, it seems irrelevant due to lack of context, I digress) back then to now but I believe transcendent players transform the era they are in. The same way LeBron made heliocentric basketball a thing or Curry with elite 3 point shooting on ridiculous volume. 

 

Jokic had a great series this year tho.  Shaq killed Philly in the finals. Do you want to argue Embid and Jokic are better post defender than Mutumbo? 
 

TLDR

 

i agree Shaq would have to change on defense, I think his offensive impact would change the league enough that teams would have to adjust to him and he would still be a transcendent player. 

 

He dominated Mutumbo at 33 points/game and 57.3% FG.

 

The next year in the finals they played the Nets.  In the Nets top 5 for minutes, the tallest player is 6'9 Kenyon Martin.  Todd MacCulloch is the person you'd call a center with the most minutes as the 6th most minutes.  Shaq averaged 36 points at 59.5% FG.

 

I don't think Embiid or Jokic are better than Mutumbo, but in terms of defending somebody like Shaq, I'm pretty sure they are both better than the likes of Todd MacCulloch Kenyon Martin.

 

And 59.5% is far from 75%.  

 

Do you really believe that Shaq would do better against those guys than he did Todd MacCulloch?  And that's based on 2001 rules and coaching.

 

And much of his scoring in those series doesn't come from lobs, ally ops, and ORB.  His offense in those series looks nothing like how Robert Williams scores.  He's playing as a traditional post center.

 

My points about ORB was that Shaq wasn't that dominant compared to his peers.  It is unlikely he'd be that dominant compared to the best centers today on the ORB any more than the likes of Elton Brand would.  If you were drafting players from the past given their past skills to play in a game, nobody would say "Oh, get Elton Brand.  He'd totally dominate the ORB."

 

I was going to write in my other post, Shaq would best in today's NBA when he was younger and playing at the weight he was in Orlando.  But you are just assuming he'd be able to do that.  You can't take Shaq with his game in LA and project it onto the Shaq at Orlando levels of fitness and weight.  The Shaq in LA was dominant partly because he was just so big and he his experience.  You can't say that you'd have a guy playing at the Orlando weight that could have the same game with the same experience and physicality.

 

And no, Emiid and Jokic don't dominate the way Shaq does.  But it is harder today to dominate like that in the post because it is easier to double and triple into the post and orient your other defenders to defend the shooters.

 

If you took the 2001-2002 Lakers and Nets and gave them today's NBA rules and defensive schemes but didn't change their skills at all, Shaq would not average 36 points at 59.5% FG.  His numbers would not be as good and that series would be closer.  Shaq would still dominate.  The Lakers would still win.  But he wouldn't dominate to the tune of 36 points on 59.5% shooting.

 

And you aren't even saying he'd do that.  You are saying he'd do BETTER than that.

 

Edited by PeterMP
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8 minutes ago, Destino said:

Time to put the Shaq discussion on the back burner because the sport with the most drama in the off-season has delivered again.  
 

 

I can't really blame him.  Kyrie and Ben Simmons must be two of the biggest head cases in the league.

 

If I had to work with those two guys where you were counting on them to be there and to preform, I'd want out too.

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7 minutes ago, Destino said:

So why did Durant wait until after Kyrie opted in for his final year with the nets to demand a trade?  

Maybe Kyrie knew he was going to ask for a trade, sign get his money and Kyrie also asks for a trade?

 

curry wrecking homes by being faithful and stay home. 

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2 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

Watch him try and get traded back to Golden State.

 

Also what's going on with Harden?  I've never seen a supposed top five player disintegrate so fast before.  His free agency has been completely overlooked.

He opted out, but wants to stay in Philly.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

Watch him try and get traded back to Golden State.

 

Also what's going on with Harden?  I've never seen a supposed top five player disintegrate so fast before.  His free agency has been completely overlooked.

 

A lot of Hardens game was running into defensive players and getting foul calls. The NBA moved away from rewarding that play..thankfully.

 

And yes he opted out but wants to stay. 

 

 

Edited by The Evil Genius
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21 minutes ago, Dr. Do Itch Big said:

Maybe Kyrie knew he was going to ask for a trade, sign get his money and Kyrie also asks for a trade?

 

curry wrecking homes by being faithful and stay home. 

That only makes sense if Kyrie didn’t expect another big contract.  If he had opted out, he’d be able to sign a long term deal anywhere he wanted.  Now he’s stuck on essentially a one year deal with no control where he ends up if traded. 

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What picks did Brooklyn give Houston in the Harden trade?

 

You could tell from the start of this Nets build that it was doomed, especially when KD and Kyrie talked about HOA they didn't really want a coach.  But goddamn this collapse was fast.  Kyrie Irving is the most radioactive team cancer in the league.

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9 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

Watch him try and get traded back to Golden State.

 

Also what's going on with Harden?  I've never seen a supposed top five player disintegrate so fast before.  His free agency has been completely overlooked.

He got fat and injured right as Father Time decided to drop by.  The only players that stay great are the ones that take great care of their bodies.  Harden hasn’t been doing that, and it was easy to see that he was struggling to drive against a single defender last season.  

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1 minute ago, Destino said:

He got fat and injured right as Father Time decided to drop by.  The only players that stay great are the ones that take great care of their bodies.  Harden hasn’t been doing that, and it was easy to see that he was struggling to drive against a single defender last season.  

 

Honestly, it makes his game look like a gimmick and it tarnished his legacy.  He needs a big bounce back season next year to change the way he's going to be remembered.  He needs things to end well in Philadelphia.

 

One thing this generation of superstars will find out is that, unless they are of the stature of LeBron, they're going to be hurt by all of the team hopping they did.  It occurred to me during this Shaq debate that there is a reason he feels underrated today.  Ditto for Moses Malone.  You need to be a beloved figure for a fan base and for them to go to bat for you in the All Time debates and keep your Q rating high.  You need to keep getting invited back to the Arena and be a beloved figure in the broadcast booth and have your career symbolized by a jersey in the rafters.  Curry is going to get a massive legacy bump for what he's accomplished to the point where in like five years, it's going to be considered ridiculous that Harden and Westbrook and Kawhi were ever considered his peers.

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10 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

What picks did Brooklyn give Houston in the Harden trade?

 

You could tell from the start of this Nets build that it was doomed, especially when KD and Kyrie talked about HOA they didn't really want a coach.  But goddamn this collapse was fast.  Kyrie Irving is the most radioactive team cancer in the league.

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Remember when folks lost their minds about superteams when the Nets hot together and they were guaranteed to be in the Finals, etc.  Nary even a conference final did they make.  That's why you play the games.  Anything can happen. Injuries, personalities, general bad mix, etc.

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You would think two phenomenal players like Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant would be more interested in putting aside their egos and trying to make things work. Do they want to win a championship or not? Because if they truly focused and worked hard they could have a shot. Bunch of primma donna millionaires.

 

By the way, watching these dudes on ESPN speculating on trades is hilarious. Guaranteed none of them happen. Paul George for Kevin Durant? Not a chance. Windhorst just suggested that maybe KD and Irving could go to the Lakers together. 

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On 6/29/2022 at 9:31 AM, Ball Security said:

Nine figures for Jalen Brunson?  I don’t know about that.  He was great last year on such a small contract.  But paying a guy 27.5M for a guy who’s never averaged 17 points a game?

 

I mean, I wouldn't do it, but you're paying for what he will do in the future, not for what he did in the past.

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KD is going to be remembered as a Robin at best at this rate, never a bus driver.

 

Bless his heart for trying to prove he could win without being on an overloaded Golden State team. But picking a flat-earth anti-vaxxer as his complimentary star in one of the toughest media markets in the country went about as bad as it possibly could.

 

And instead of trying to make it work, he's crying like a little ***** to get out of there.  What happens to his legacy if he holds out to try to get traded?

 

F it, offer Beal in a package for KD.

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