CNN.com: NSA leaker fears for democracy

[SnyderShrugged]

I do have to say, I am impressed by the establishment media and defenders of the President, they have made the story about Snowden and not about the illegal spying the NSA does. Bravo establishment bravo. Nixon wishes he had this complicity in 1973.

While you do have a point there, lets be honest...Snowden's attention whoring is at the very least partially to blame for that as well. He turned the whole thing into a drama about himself and essentially took a lot of the focus off of the actual meat of what he revealed. Instead of admitting he leaked the info and shutting up to let it unfold and keep the focus on the NSA program, he started doing interviews, disappearing, reappearing, going to this country and that country, giving them info about the USA's spying on them. ostensibly in exchange for safe passage, etc etc. 

I'd still like to know what his alternatives would have been and still remained free and alive.   What would have been a better approach?

[zoony]

Seriously, he's starting to sound like he wears a tin foil hat at night. And even though Obama is getting the heat and snowden the hate, its the private sector that's really dissapointed me on this one. GD, guys...

Like most tinfoil hat types, he has a highly inflated sense of self and a passive aggressive stance towards the world.

He sounds like just another victim of the Internet. What a ****ing nerd.

I do have to say, I am impressed by the establishment media and defenders of the President, they have made the story about Snowden and not about the illegal spying the NSA does. Bravo establishment bravo. Nixon wishes he had this complicity in 1973.

Your slide into full blown paranoia over the last 2 years has been troubling

[SnyderShrugged]

Thats a real shame to see someone say that.  Personally, I think SHF is one of the most intelligent and well thought out posters here and I admire his convictions.   I have never once seen him show rudeness nor disrespect to another member here.    He's one of the good guys.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I agree about the clearance process. There is pressure everywhere to get these things done yesterday. We either need to change our expectations (meaning that we as contractors/government agencies allow the process to take the required time) or we need to give the companies more funding/resources to do a more thorough job. We can't always have it both ways.

 

If you expect someone to go through years/decades of work experience, school, neighbors, friends, etc. and really get a comfort level with an individual, then you have to allow for the appropriate time.

[mistertim]

 

I do have to say, I am impressed by the establishment media and defenders of the President, they have made the story about Snowden and not about the illegal spying the NSA does. Bravo establishment bravo. Nixon wishes he had this complicity in 1973.

While you do have a point there, lets be honest...Snowden's attention whoring is at the very least partially to blame for that as well. He turned the whole thing into a drama about himself and essentially took a lot of the focus off of the actual meat of what he revealed. Instead of admitting he leaked the info and shutting up to let it unfold and keep the focus on the NSA program, he started doing interviews, disappearing, reappearing, going to this country and that country, giving them info about the USA's spying on them. ostensibly in exchange for safe passage, etc etc. 

I'd still like to know what his alternatives would have been and still remained free and alive.   What would have been a better approach?

As I noted, why not just leak the info and stay low profile? Even if he felt the need to give his identity he could have done that, said "This is me, I leaked this info because..." and then stepped back and let the leaked info be the main story. Instead of that he came out, did interviews, started drama by disappearing and then reappearing, started incrementally releasing statements saying that he had more data and would be releasing it, started giving info to other countries about how the US spies on them, and has now started releasing propaganda-ish statements blasting the US after they had the audacity to treat him like a criminal for, you know, committing a crime.

 

So he has been, intentionally or not, instrumental in making sure the information he released has been somewhat overshadowed by his own numbskullery.

[SnyderShrugged]

 

 

I do have to say, I am impressed by the establishment media and defenders of the President, they have made the story about Snowden and not about the illegal spying the NSA does. Bravo establishment bravo. Nixon wishes he had this complicity in 1973.

While you do have a point there, lets be honest...Snowden's attention whoring is at the very least partially to blame for that as well. He turned the whole thing into a drama about himself and essentially took a lot of the focus off of the actual meat of what he revealed. Instead of admitting he leaked the info and shutting up to let it unfold and keep the focus on the NSA program, he started doing interviews, disappearing, reappearing, going to this country and that country, giving them info about the USA's spying on them. ostensibly in exchange for safe passage, etc etc. 

I'd still like to know what his alternatives would have been and still remained free and alive.   What would have been a better approach?

As I noted, why not just leak the info and stay low profile? Even if he felt the need to give his identity he could have done that, said "This is me, I leaked this info because..." and then stepped back and let the leaked info be the main story. Instead of that he came out, did interviews, started drama by disappearing and then reappearing, started incrementally releasing statements saying that he had more data and would be releasing it, started giving info to other countries about how the US spies on them, and has now started releasing propaganda-ish statements blasting the US after they had the audacity to treat him like a criminal for, you know, committing a crime.

 

So he has been, intentionally or not, instrumental in making sure the information he released has been somewhat overshadowed by his own numbskullery.

I'd imagine anything anonymously reported would likely be swept under the rug as "conspiracy theory" like most things that aim at Government wrong doing end up being painted as.

 

The way he went about it is likely one of the very few ways he could..

 

A) be seen as a credible whistleblower

B  ) stay alive and free

[Corcaigh]

How could he be a "whistleblower" and follow channels if the program is (as we've been told)

1. entirely legal
2. authorized and reauthorized by the current (and former President) and
3. under the full and detailed ongoing scrutiny of both Congress and the Judicial branch?

[pointyfootball]

How could he be a "whistleblower" and follow channels if the program is (as we've been told)

1. entirely legal
2. authorized and reauthorized by the current (and former President) and
3. under the full and detailed ongoing scrutiny of both Congress and the Judicial branch?

By assuming the "whistleblower" title, he's legitimizing his treason.  IMO anyway.

[mistertim]

 

 

 

I do have to say, I am impressed by the establishment media and defenders of the President, they have made the story about Snowden and not about the illegal spying the NSA does. Bravo establishment bravo. Nixon wishes he had this complicity in 1973.

While you do have a point there, lets be honest...Snowden's attention whoring is at the very least partially to blame for that as well. He turned the whole thing into a drama about himself and essentially took a lot of the focus off of the actual meat of what he revealed. Instead of admitting he leaked the info and shutting up to let it unfold and keep the focus on the NSA program, he started doing interviews, disappearing, reappearing, going to this country and that country, giving them info about the USA's spying on them. ostensibly in exchange for safe passage, etc etc. 

I'd still like to know what his alternatives would have been and still remained free and alive.   What would have been a better approach?

As I noted, why not just leak the info and stay low profile? Even if he felt the need to give his identity he could have done that, said "This is me, I leaked this info because..." and then stepped back and let the leaked info be the main story. Instead of that he came out, did interviews, started drama by disappearing and then reappearing, started incrementally releasing statements saying that he had more data and would be releasing it, started giving info to other countries about how the US spies on them, and has now started releasing propaganda-ish statements blasting the US after they had the audacity to treat him like a criminal for, you know, committing a crime.

 

So he has been, intentionally or not, instrumental in making sure the information he released has been somewhat overshadowed by his own numbskullery.

I'd imagine anything anonymously reported would likely be swept under the rug as "conspiracy theory" like most things that aim at Government wrong doing end up being painted as.

 

The way he went about it is likely one of the very few ways he could..

 

A) be seen as a credible whistleblower

B  ) stay alive and free

I never said anything about it having to be anonymous. I actually specifically said if he felt that he needed to be open about who he was he could do that without going to the media stunt-like lengths that he has been ever since this story broke. Like it or not, the dude seriously seems to like keeping himself in the spotlight and in doing so he takes focus away from what he revealed and shifts it back to himself. Add to that the whole "giving/offering other countries info about the US spying on them in exchange for safe passage" stuff he was apparently doing and he is increasingly making himself look worse and taking away from his own credibility. 

 

That sort of stuff makes him look much less like a "courageous whistleblower" and much more like an opportunistic attention seeker who is willing to sell out whoever in order to save his own skin. 

 

As for your point B, that just boils down to personal opinion and interpretation of his actions and the reaction from the US government. Personally I don't think he was or is really in any danger of being assassinated or whatever. I know it could be tempting to see that sort of situation, especially if you're (general "you're", not you specifically) very distrustful of the government already but this isn't an action movie; I see it as a huge long shot. What would be gained? The info is already leaked. Even if he tried to stay more low key, tons of people would still know exactly who he was and a sudden death or disappearance would likely cause an uproar. The benefits simply don't justify the risks.

[SnyderShrugged]

 

 

 

 

I do have to say, I am impressed by the establishment media and defenders of the President, they have made the story about Snowden and not about the illegal spying the NSA does. Bravo establishment bravo. Nixon wishes he had this complicity in 1973.

While you do have a point there, lets be honest...Snowden's attention whoring is at the very least partially to blame for that as well. He turned the whole thing into a drama about himself and essentially took a lot of the focus off of the actual meat of what he revealed. Instead of admitting he leaked the info and shutting up to let it unfold and keep the focus on the NSA program, he started doing interviews, disappearing, reappearing, going to this country and that country, giving them info about the USA's spying on them. ostensibly in exchange for safe passage, etc etc. 

I'd still like to know what his alternatives would have been and still remained free and alive.   What would have been a better approach?

As I noted, why not just leak the info and stay low profile? Even if he felt the need to give his identity he could have done that, said "This is me, I leaked this info because..." and then stepped back and let the leaked info be the main story. Instead of that he came out, did interviews, started drama by disappearing and then reappearing, started incrementally releasing statements saying that he had more data and would be releasing it, started giving info to other countries about how the US spies on them, and has now started releasing propaganda-ish statements blasting the US after they had the audacity to treat him like a criminal for, you know, committing a crime.

 

So he has been, intentionally or not, instrumental in making sure the information he released has been somewhat overshadowed by his own numbskullery.

I'd imagine anything anonymously reported would likely be swept under the rug as "conspiracy theory" like most things that aim at Government wrong doing end up being painted as.

 

The way he went about it is likely one of the very few ways he could..

 

A) be seen as a credible whistleblower

B  ) stay alive and free

I never said anything about it having to be anonymous. I actually specifically said if he felt that he needed to be open about who he was he could do that without going to the media stunt-like lengths that he has been ever since this story broke. Like it or not, the dude seriously seems to like keeping himself in the spotlight and in doing so he takes focus away from what he revealed and shifts it back to himself. Add to that the whole "giving/offering other countries info about the US spying on them in exchange for safe passage" stuff he was apparently doing and he is increasingly making himself look worse and taking away from his own credibility. 

 

That sort of stuff makes him look much less like a "courageous whistleblower" and much more like an opportunistic attention seeker who is willing to sell out whoever in order to save his own skin. 

 

As for your point B, that just boils down to personal opinion and interpretation of his actions and the reaction from the US government. Personally I don't think he was or is really in any danger of being assassinated or whatever. I know it could be tempting to see that sort of situation, especially if you're (general "you're", not you specifically) very distrustful of the government already but this isn't an action movie; I see it as a huge long shot. What would be gained? The info is already leaked. Even if he tried to stay more low key, tons of people would still know exactly who he was and a sudden death or disappearance would likely cause an uproar. The benefits simply don't justify the risks.

Your last sentence is precisely why it was wise to go the media route.  

[visionary]

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/07/edward-snowden-dad-paul-revere-93667.html

Edward Snowden dad letter: Son like Paul Revere

 

Calling his son a “modern day Paul Revere,” Lon Snowden and his lawyer Bruce Fein called on Edward Snowden to reach out directly to his father in an open letter posted online Tuesday.

 

“You are a modern day Paul Revere: summoning the American people to confront the growing danger of tyranny and one branch government,” the letter states.

 

“The history of civilization is a history of brave men and women refusing to bow to government wrongdoing or injustice, and exalting knowledge, virtue, wisdom, and selflessness over creature comforts as the North Star of life,” the letter continues. “We believe your actions fall within that honorable tradition, a conviction we believe is shared by many.”

 

[skinsmarydu]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for your point B, that just boils down to personal opinion and interpretation of his actions and the reaction from the US government. Personally I don't think he was or is really in any danger of being assassinated or whatever. I know it could be tempting to see that sort of situation, especially if you're (general "you're", not you specifically) very distrustful of the government already but this isn't an action movie; I see it as a huge long shot. What would be gained? The info is already leaked. Even if he tried to stay more low key, tons of people would still know exactly who he was and a sudden death or disappearance would likely cause an uproar. The benefits simply don't justify the risks.

Your last sentence is precisely why it was wise to go the media route.  

I agree, SS.  I would think my life & the secrets would be valuable, therefore my life is.  If we hadn't had this wild goose chase, we'd be chasing a ghost, who could reveal no more.

[The Evil Genius]

The minute he leaked the info and it was connected to him publicly, he was safe and sound here.

 

Everything else has been grandstanding on his part and him not wanting to face the repercussions of his actions. Now that he's getting turned down for asylum left and right, I suspect the writing on the wall is getting more and more legible for him.

 

[mistertim]

I agree, SS.  I would think my life & the secrets would be valuable, therefore my life is.  If we hadn't had this wild goose chase, we'd be chasing a ghost, who could reveal no more.

Do you honestly believe that if Snowden had not created the 3 ring media circus he did then he would have been assassinated by the United States government on the orders of the President of the United States? 

[SnyderShrugged]

I agree, SS.  I would think my life & the secrets would be valuable, therefore my life is.  If we hadn't had this wild goose chase, we'd be chasing a ghost, who could reveal no more.

Do you honestly believe that if Snowden had not created the 3 ring media circus he did then he would have been assassinated by the United States government on the orders of the President of the United States? 

added a wee bit of extra specifics in that loaded question didnt you?  lol.    rememeber we said both safety and freedom were his goals.   

[mistertim]

 

I agree, SS.  I would think my life & the secrets would be valuable, therefore my life is.  If we hadn't had this wild goose chase, we'd be chasing a ghost, who could reveal no more.

Do you honestly believe that if Snowden had not created the 3 ring media circus he did then he would have been assassinated by the United States government on the orders of the President of the United States? 

added a wee bit of extra specifics in that loaded question didnt you?  lol.    rememeber we said both safety and freedom were his goals.   

Ok that's a fair criticism; yes my post was intentionally over-specific with the intent of pointing out what I personally see as the absurdity of the position. Then again, who else would order such a thing when dealing with a high level national security risk? Who else besides the US government would be doing it? I guess they could outsource it.

 

Either way, remember, you were the one who brought up the assassination stuff some pages back when you said that him being so public might be the only thing keeping him alive. And to be honest, if freedom was one of his main goals he should have factored that in before knowingly breaking the law and then fleeing. Being a fugitive generally doesn't come with a ton of wiggle room.

[visionary]

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/putin-says-snowden-must-pick-country-and-leave/482571.html

Putin Says Snowden Must Pick Country and Leave

 

President Vladimir Putin on Monday reiterated his stance that former U.S. intelligence analyst Edward Snowden needs to choose a country to seek asylum in and leave, amid reports that the American fugitive had officially applied for safe haven in Russia and more than a dozen other countries.

 

In only his second public comments on the case, Putin said Snowden could stay in Russia but only if he stopped damaging "our American partners."

 

"Since he considers himself a human rights activist, it seems he doesn't want to stop his work. Therefore, he should choose a country he wants to go to and move there, but I don't know when this is going to happen," Putin said at a news conference following a meeting of the Gas Exporting Countries Forum in Moscow.

 

[visionary]

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/bolivian-leaders-plane-rerouted-snowden-fear

Bolivian leader's plane rerouted on Snowden fear

 

Bolivia's foreign minister says the plane bringing President Evo Morales home from Russia was rerouted to Austria after France and Portugal refused to let it to cross their airspace because of suspicions that NSA leaker Edward Snowden was on board.

 

David Choquehuanca has denied that Snowden was on the plane, saying "we don't know who invented this lie, but we want to denounce to the international community this injustice with the plane of President Evo Morales."

 

[Larry]

Sigh. 

 

What really frustrates me is that the only reason I can see for such melodramatics, is if WE are SERIOUSLY leaning on countries. 

 

I hope it's not true.  But I'm having trouble thinking of another explanation. 

[Renegade7]

 

Reuters has an article about discrepancies in his resume that both USIS and Booz Allen overlooked. Thats should've been enough to say "hey, lets just be on the safe side here and say NO". I think Booz Allen wanted him and USIS was more then happy to help him get hired. There's no doubt in my mind the dollar signs hide what could've been found if they actually tried.

 

It isn't nearly as sinister as that (having had contacts and associations at both companies)

 

BAH wants to place a guy and the gov't says yes. They probably wouldn't have hired him unless he had the clearance, which was probably issued a few years earlier when he was a govy. Private companies prefer NOT to pay the bill for clearances.

 

USIS people are simply overworked and pushed to meet ridiculous deadlines. Considering how we give out clearances like candy, I am not surprised this slipped

 

I do have to say, I am impressed by the establishment media and defenders of the President, they have made the story about Snowden and not about the illegal spying the NSA does. Bravo establishment bravo. Nixon wishes he had this complicity in 1973. 

 

I respect you defending your friends at USIS. The issue still remains that the decision to overwork and underpay them was made at the top of the company, and now they're being seriously questioned about it. Telling the government that they're doing double checks when they aren't is unacceptable; they've been lying to keep up with the demand, SHF.

And don't lump all the Obama supporters together for trying sweep this under the rug for him. A lot of people were in hot water over this, including Google, Verizon, etc. Out of respect for the OP, this thread is supposed to be about Snowden, who is making a habit of drawing attention to himself in all the wrong ways now.

Edit: Just saw Visionary's last post about Putin, and I really want to give Russia and China the benefit of the doubt that they really just want to stay out of this.

[DCranon21]

*Sigh* When will this end. 

[TheGoodBits]

Sigh.

What really frustrates me is that the only reason I can see for such melodramatics, is if WE are SERIOUSLY leaning on countries.

I hope it's not true. But I'm having trouble thinking of another explanation.

Why? He's a high profile fugitive facing espionage charges. What would be the sensible way to go about apprehending him?

Point being- he knew or should have known this would happen. He knew his life was over when he decided to leak the info he did. Not sure if he anticipated a greater level of public support or what... There are certainly those who view him as a hero for what he did, but I wouldn't call those opinions widespread or influential.

[visionary]

Point being- he knew or should have known this would happen. He knew his life was over when he decided to leak the info he did. Not sure if he anticipated a greater level of public support or what... There are certainly those who view him as a hero for what he did, but I wouldn't call those opinions widespread or influential.

 

In the US views on him are mixed, though I think the majority that know about him do not support him.

(most likely don't care or pay attention to the news one way the other)

Outside the US he was very popular and has had wide support, but not by governments.

[Larry]

Why? He's a high profile fugitive facing espionage charges. What would be the sensible way to go about apprehending him?

By leaning on allies like France, to the point where they're afraid of reprisals against their country, if they allow a diplomatic aircraft to fly through their airspace?

We're threatening the country of France, and the President of Bolivia, over this guy?

These actions have consequences.

[Bang]

I have no idea what to think of this guy right now.

Traitor or hero. I'm just not sure.

~Bang