The Official ES All Things Redskins Name Change Thread (Reboot Edition---Read New OP)

[Bang]

Then why are you so passionate about this?

I don't like the idea of anyone deciding that any concept of an imagined person is somehow owned by a group who can give permission for it to be used unless it is a specific image that is copyrighted.

i think i've been abundantly clear on that.

That goes way beyond logos.

The Vikings are extinct.

they're not, they're just using a different name. You think there's no descendents of Vikings in the world? Did they split with the Mayans, and Norway just fill in with wandering Belgians or Swedes?

Of course the Vikings are not extinct. the Northmen are alive and well.

You don't see people of other ethnicities wearing daskikis.

So what. Does that mean they can't?

You don't hear the problem here?

You think that people must stick to their own type. if not, they're being offensive.

Honestly, i think what it is offending is your sense of how the world should be ordered.

The Colts horse shoe belongs to the Irsay's in Indianapolis, as it did in Baltimore until 1984.

The Colts horseshoe is a SPECIFIC image. Just as the guy on our helmet is now a specific image. But when it was drawn it was NOT. It was something an artist rendered. and then it was legally trademaked, etc. etc.

the Colts and their logo have absolutely nothing to do with my argument at all. Unless you think that the Irsays should own the rights to ALL images of horseshoes, real or imagined, in perpetuity. You can't own the idea of the drawn form of a generic human being regardless of what race he comes from.

We differ on our concepts of ownership when it comes to ethnic culture.

you got that right. Welcome to the Melting Pot.

There was a time when a majority of our fanbase wanted the team to stay white. As we learned more, we evolved as a group and adapted to better ways. We still have living members of our fanbase from that era.

How about the black fans. Did the majority of them want the Redskins to stay white? Did the black fans of the team support the nazi and KKK rallies outside the stadium?

right now, the majority of native Americans support the name, by a wide margin. You see the difference?

~Bang

[Burgold]

Part of me thinks this should be merged, but I hope it can stand alone. I got an opportunity to talk to DC Councilman Grasso on his resolution. In the afterchat, I told him he hadn't convinced me in the least. I understand his heart, but think that his logic is a bit problematic.

After chatting with Grasso, I brought Bang back onto the radio to get a fans response to some of what the Councilman had to say.

Would love to hear your reactions to the interviews. I've always been a more respectful interviewer than an attack dog, but I hope I brought up some fair points.

Grasso's interview

http://voicerussia.com/radio_broadcast/70924886/112440250.html

Bang's rebuttal

http://voicerussia.com/radio_broadcast/70924886/112442211.html

[LD0506]

I commend you for your restraint in this interview that brings to mind a certain feminine hygiene product, and the bag it came in.

[GhostofSparta]

I agree with Bang wholeheartedly, 1% is FAR too low of a threshold. I mean, if that's all it took, don't you think Wizards fans would've found 1% of practicing Wizards/Wiccans/Warlocks/Whatevers to come out and say that the name/logo is offensive and force the team to change to a less ridiculous one?

[Burgold]

I agree with Bang wholeheartedly, 1% is FAR too low of a threshold. I mean, if that's all it took, don't you think Wizards fans would've found 1% of practicing Wizards/Wiccans/Warlocks/Whatevers to come out and say that the name/logo is offensive and force the team to change to a less ridiculous one?

I felt a little guilty pitching Bang such a softball, but couldn't resist it

[skinfan2k]

Keep talking DC. You are never getting this team back in the district.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Someone forgot to mention Red Mesa High School in Arizona.

jus sayin' :pfft:

[Burgold]

It's tough... you're trying to think of all the things you want to say, but also remembering that your job is to be an impartial analyst/reporter. In the moment I thought I did okay... probably could have hit him with a few harder questions, but I also wanted him to really lay out his reasoning and philosophy.

[AsburySkinsFan]

It's tough... you're trying to think of all the things you want to say, but also remembering that your job is to be an impartial analyst/reporter. In the moment I thought I did okay... probably could have hit him with a few harder questions, but I also wanted him to really lay out his reasoning and philosophy.

Yeah, I know. You have a radio show that isn't about drilling some moron into the ground. You did well, and you pressed him on the 9% and he then went and hung himself on the 1%. The N-word equivalency drives me bonkers, and the Maya Angelou quote. I just want one person who believes they are equal to find a single mascot of an African American school that is named the N-word, just one. Until then it is a useless comparison because the N-word is widely (some might say uniformly) understood as racist, so much so that they refuse to name their school mascots by the same name. That however cannot be said of the Native American usage of Redskins.

oh...and 1% of the people don't get to dictate squat in a democracy.

ps....Bang was awesome. You should have him back for a weekly segment on DC sports.

[Burgold]

ps....Bang was awesome. You should have him back for a weekly segment on DC sports.

If he's into it and I can fanagle a budget (I don't mind one or two freebies, but if it's regular he should get some kind of compensation unless it helps him businesswise) I'd be for it. I also think Dubmoney did a very nice job too.

We gots some talent here on ES :thumbsup:

[Bang]

I like that idea.

~Bang

[amm0409]

If he's into it and I can fanagle a budget (I don't mind one or two freebies, but if it's regular he should get some kind of compensation unless it helps him businesswise) I'd be for it. I also think Dubmoney did a very nice job too.

We gots some talent here on ES :thumbsup:

I always like to here what Bang has to say!

I like that idea.

~Bang

Bang you did a great job Man!

[skinsince72]

Interesting video here from a local NA. I knew someone would step up.

http://www.redskins.com/media-gallery/videos/Native-American-Chief-talks-Redskins/152616c5-36d4-45b1-8781-d35e2bd6f8a2

[pjfootballer]

Grosso says he visited NA tribes in the SW part of the US, but he never said whether or not they were offended by the name. His answer was that the white man had to "make up for it."

I too, liked Bang's rebuttal.

[D'KanSkinFan]

The Indian tribes are in a tither over the logo with whiskey bottles and other graphic details that reduce the tribes honor. Keep it clean people - no matter how disgruntled you are with the organization or the players and the tribe will stay off our backs. Just fair warning.........

[visionary]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/redskins/2013/05/09/washington-redskins-daniel-snyder/2148127/?sf12629993=1

Daniel Snyder says Redskins will never change name

Daniel Snyder is owner of the Washington pro football team he grew up adoring. Would he ever consider changing the team name that many American Indians and others believe is a racial slur?

"We will never change the name of the team," Snyder told USA TODAY Sports this week. "As a lifelong Redskins fan, and I think that the Redskins fans understand the great tradition and what it's all about and what it means, so we feel pretty fortunate to be just working on next season."

What if his football team loses an ongoing federal trademark lawsuit? Would he consider changing it then?

"We'll never change the name," he said. "It's that simple. NEVER — you can use caps."

[thebluefood]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/redskins/2013/05/09/washington-redskins-daniel-snyder/2148127/?sf12629993=1

Well, there ya go. It ain't happening and there's nothing the D.C. City Council can do about it because the team plays in PG County and practices in Loudoun County

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm actually kind of relieved the team isn't playing within the D.C. City Limits. Looks like it's going to stay that way, too.

[USS Redskins]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/redskins/2013/05/09/washington-redskins-daniel-snyder/2148127/?sf12629993=1

NEVER! Keep whining Mikey wise and all the others... It ain't happening!

Time to close the issue for good.

It's over and u lose.

[pjfootballer]

And you can put that in all caps. NEVER.

[skinsmarydu]

I'm suddenly lovin' you, Danny Boy.

NEVER.

Hail!

[Gamebreaker]

I've been on numerous NFL message boards where people have been adamant the Redskins should change their name. After doing my own research into the matter, I've lost alot of respect for many a sportswriter who've picked up the banner on this campaign for a name change without doing the actual research to know whether their claims were warranted.

It is no surprise to me that the majority of those asking for a name change aren't even Native American. I am not saying no Native Americans are offended by it, but I've seen just as many that are proud of the name. So what is the truth? Is the name racist? Has it ever been racist? This is what I've found:

"In 1998 the Trademark Trial and Appeal Board decided in favor of the petitioners and cancelled the trademark. Pro Football, Inc. appealed to the United States District Court, which in 2003 overturned the decision of the Trademark Trial and Appeal Board and reinstated the trademark. It gave several grounds for its decision:

that there was an absence of evidence that the term redskin is disparaging in the particular context of the name of the sports team;

that the TTB did not sufficiently articulate its inferences and explain how it decided between competing pieces of evidence. In particular, the District Court was critical of the fact that the TTB ruled on the basis "of the entirety of the evidence" but did not review that evidence in any detail and made few findings of fact;"

"I think that it is well established that redskin is taken by most people today to be disparaging. What is more interesting is whether it has always been so, as Harjo et al., as well as various others, claim. One interesting piece of evidence is the origin of the name Washington Redskins. In 1933, George Preston Marshall, the owner of the team, which was then located in Boston, renamed it the Boston Redskins in honor of the head coach, William "Lone Star" Dietz, an American Indian.³ When the team moved to Washington in 1937 it was renamed the Washington Redskins. George Marshall clearly did not consider the name disparaging."

http://http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002961.html

So we see Marshall never intended the name to be a disparaging one. This other article I found states how the name came to be:

"Most people assume that the word described the natural skin color of the North American Indians. However, there exists documentation that the name "redskin" was conferred upon the native inhabitants by the English Colonists because of the red body paint they wore in battle. Because the 1699 quotation would certainly be referring to Indian warriors, this seems to be the most likely explanation of the origin of "redskin"..

Some say the term is disparaging. The "Webster's Third New International Dictionary", Unabridged, 1976, gives "a North American Indian" and nothing more. The Oxford English says "redskin" is "generally benign". If the origin of the word had to do with painted warriors in battle, I find it suspect that it would have become an insult. Yet, beginning about 1967, dictionaries began to describe it as "usually offensive".'

http://http://neddybee.blogspot.com/2005/04/redskins-and-war-paint.html

I just wanted our fanbase to know the truth of where the name came from, so we would be better equipped to deal with the politically correct and opportunistic seeking to find a cause to latch onto.

[CrabR]

The Redskins need to reach out to the Indian nations and ask what they can do to make the name Redskins a noble symbol and not a racist term to them. Maybe instead of the Breast Cancer Charity have a Native American charity drive instead. How many scholarships do they give out tot them ? If Snyder supported the Indian nations they would support Snyder. Without their support we will have to eventually have to change the name. I can see Mara taking away draft choices until we do. Wait isn't giant a racist term, shouldnt they be called large and tall

Maybe it is because I have always been a Redskin fan but I have always viewed the term as noble and proud and not racist

[ThomasRoane]

I've done quite a bit of research on Native Americans partly due to some distant lineage but also because they were a fascinating people. The Algonquin tribes of the Powhatan used dust from copper mines to cover their bodies when going to battle which gave their skin a reddish-orange hue.

Reference the owner it's been brought up before and I'll repeat what's been said. Why would an egotist like Marshall name his team after something he thought was demeaning? That would be like me buying a semi pro team in Northern Virginia and naming them the Manassas Morons.

[MusicCitySkin]

In a way, the Vikings is more offensive seeing as the majority of Scandinavian Americans settled in... you guessed it, Minnesota.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_American

Are all Scandinavian peoples proud of their murdering, raping, pillaging ancestors? Doesn't matter! Their state is represented by the biggest, blondest Scandinavian Viking with huge braids and a ridiculous horned helmet that no Viking in history ever wore.

http://europeanhistory.about.com/od/thevikings/a/histmyths6.htm

[newday]

Not every insult is intended. Many happen because people just don't know better. And they are 100% sure they are not being insulting. So they keep doing it and wonder why everyone is acting funny.