The Official ES All Things Redskins Name Change Thread (Reboot Edition---Read New OP)

[Mr. Sinister]

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/05/29/retired-native-american-chief-would-be-offended-if-redskins-did-change-name/#.U5jCHcHHKBR.facebook

 

 

Wow, so an actual NA actually provided his own opinion (and his tribes opinion) on the matter, and was given the floor on a nationally syndicated program, and not ignored and basically called an NA Uncle Tom..... I'm floored. You'd think they'd never be given the chance.

[Larry]

The point I'm making is that the majority in this thread do not believe that NA's are truly offended.

Insert the phrase "the majority of NAs" (instead of your previous claim of absolutism), and you've gone from "the majority believe" to "it has been unarguably proven".

Using it in their presence isn't the same as calling them a redskin.

Nor is it the same as using it as the name of a football team.

But, funny, you want to ignore one attempt to use an alternate context, while claiming its unfair for people to actually use the context which is the subject of the thread.

[Predicto]

As a never name change guy, I understand I have nothing to do with it.

But if we went to the ridiculous suggestion of warriors, I would go to the bars on Sunday with empty beer bottles with one new fight song...

WARRIORS- COME OUT AND PLAAAYYYEYA

 

My basketball team already does this ... and it is awesome!

[TK]

"Note: Goodell and Snyder both have been asked if they would feel comfortable calling a Native American "Redskin." Both men have declined to answer the question. What else do you need to know?"

You need to know the context. For example, is the Native American in question a member of the Washington Redskins?

[Bonez3]

I wouldn't feel comfortable calling a NA anything. Redskin, Indian, Brave, or NA.

It's an awkward arena, but too much evidence supports 'Redskin' is not racist.

Take the racist agenda somewhere it belongs and not with the Washington Redskins- who as an organization, has shown reverence and supplied resources to NAs.

[Gamebreaker]

here is the thing, this isnt going anywhere. This isnt a child. This is people with a lot of money who will keep saying its offensive. The name probably is offensive. THe history of the team is not going anywhere if the name is changed. We wont give up the Super Bowls and the NFL championship. And we will probably make more money off this.I do not like how the team is handling this, and I dont like that this name offends people. But I also dont like UnWise Mike types talking about this all the time too. I just want to watch and support my football team. A lot of people are bothered by it from former players, fans, etc. I want us to talk about the abject nature of our team, and not this stuff. Just change the name and move forward. We will look a lot better in the long run.

I can't get behind that. There is no probably, the name isn't offensive. Maybe you should just stop reading their endless rants. I don't like people trying to redefine things to suit and alternate means.

Nearly everyone who's recently spoken out on the name, has admitted they didn't know where the name comes from. I'm not changing my mind because Champ Bailey doesn't know how to use google. The resources are readily available, some of these name change people are too stupid to use them or just keep ignoring it.

If they want to keep ignoring facts, then we can keep ignoring this #rightsideofhistory garbage.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

What I don't care for about this thread is that so many believe that there is some scam out there to take "your" team name. They are ALL lying, no one is offended. They just want to deprive you of your team name. It's not possible that some NA's accept the name while others are offended by it. No, that's not possible. They are all lying. It's a conspiracy.

I have a question about this post.

 

What?

[Larry]

I can't get behind that. There is no probably, the name isn't offensive.

Well, many people seem to say it's offensive to them.

They seem to be a tiny minority. (Although, non-scientific evidence seems to suggest, to me, that the numbers seem to be growing.)

You got any support for the notion that every single one of the people claiming to be offended, are lying?

[Prototype]

I think the only way to settle this would be to take a CURRENT poll of all Native Americans to see how they really feel.

If the number is anywhere close to where 25% of them are offended, that should be enough to warrant a change.

And before all the right-wingers on here crucify me about why we should bow to the minority, I'd like to point out that this is a billion dollar franchise that is recognized almost everywhere, and even a 25% offended native population is nothing to scoff about

[Gamebreaker]

Well, many people seem to say it's offensive to them.

They seem to be a tiny minority. (Although, non-scientific evidence seems to suggest, to me, that the numbers seem to be growing.)

You got any support for the notion that every single one of the people claiming to be offended, are lying?

You know, I don't have any support for that claim. So I have no problem recanting that sentence. It's my personal opinion and not a proven fact. Much like the often brought up statement than since Marshall was racist against African Americans, then it's a no-brainer he was also racist against Native Americans as well. There is zero evidence to support the notion, but it still doesn't prevent every sportswriter who wants the name change from saying it.

I think the only way to settle this would be to take a CURRENT poll of all Native Americans to see how they really feel.

If the number is anywhere close to where 25% of them are offended, that should be enough to warrant a change.

And before all the right-wingers on here crucify me about why we should bow to the minority, I'd like to point out that this is a billion dollar franchise that is recognized almost everywhere, and even a 25% offended native population is nothing to scoff about

I agree. It almost makes you wonder why the change the name crowd hasn't already done it. Maybe they feel they already know the answer.

[Predicto]

There is no probably, the name isn't offensive. 

 

Sometimes words become outmoded even if we don't intend them to be offensive.   We don't use "colored boys" anymore.  We don't use "Chinaman" any more.  We don't use "wench" anymore.  It's a natural process in the evolution of language.   It is unfortunate that the guy who owned this team didn't use a different word for Native Americans, like Indians or Chiefs or a specific tribe name, because it looks like the word he used got passed up by history.  

 

Please understand that many people disagree with the Diehard Redskins Fan point of view about whether the name is appropriate without being stupid, ignorant of history, or liars.    

[grego]

Using it in their presence isn't the same as calling them a redskin.

I've read that an open challenge posted on a major news site was to go on a reservation and into a bar and say " hey, what's up redskins". How many would be willing to do it.

 

 

you dont call a native american 'redskin' to their face, nor do you call them 'brave', 'chief', or 'indian'. i wouldnt call anyone 'boy'. i wouldnt call anyone 'yankee'. i wouldnt call someone from denmark a 'viking'. 

 

(but, outside of 'boy', i might call a professional sports team one of the above) 

 

you call people their name, or 'sir'. 'redskin' isnt racist because you dont call someone that (outside of a football player). 

 

its a ridiculous argument that i cant tell if youre actually serious about. 

 

 

The point I'm making is that the majority in this thread do not believe that NA's are truly offended.

 

 

NA's are not of one mind on the issue, so i'm not sure how you can say 'NA's are truly offended'. theres no question some say they are offended. i havent seen anyone argue otherwise. 

 

the question boils down to 'how many' before you think about changing the name. (and, to me, at least, 'why' are you offended)

[Gamebreaker]

Please understand that many people disagree with the Diehard Redskins Fan point of view about whether the name is appropriate without being stupid, ignorant of history, or liars.

I'm sure there may be one or two who don't fit into those categories.

[PleaseBlitz]

I call everyone chief.  Or boss.  

[Larry]

I call everyone chief.  Or boss.

[elkabong82]

Btw, I do not agree with everything written in this article, but, I do find this interesting:

"Note: Goodell and Snyder both have been asked if they would feel comfortable calling a Native American "Redskin." Both men have declined to answer the question. What else do you need to know?"

There's also other points made as well.

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/77382004/washington-redskins-nickname-controversy-bruce-allen-us-senators#!XDhZa

Larry, I respect you as a poster, you always seem fair and insightful, but this is not a court room. You get the point I'm making and it's a legitimate point. Someone else agreed so I can't be that far off.

 

Would you feel comfortable calling them Indian, Brave, or Chief to their face? That argument is a flawed one that tries to treat the word as a slur by turning it into a "gotcha" question. You typically call a person by their name when speaking to them, not whatever label defines their ethnicity. No comment is the only thing they can do, because if they say yes then they get labeled as racists by the PC brigade, and if they say no then they validate the argument. It's a lose-lose question, which means it isn't an honest one.

 

As far as usage as a descriptor, like describing a group of people as white or black, personally I'd go with Native American. Some go with Indian although there are NAs that don't like that, nobody would use Braves or Chiefs unless it was a group of chiefs together. Some NAs use redskins as a descriptor and it's been cited in here. But among non-NAs, NA or Indian are the common descriptors. You wouldn't use Redskins simply because it isn't commonly used. It's only common usage is as a sports team name. It's like Celtic. It's a descriptor for a group of people, but it's not in common use. Would you call someone who fit the description a Celtic? No. You'd call them by their actual name. Would you describe a group of people that fit it Celtics? Probably not since again it isn't a commonly used word.

[grego]

I call everyone chief.  Or boss.  

 

those people call you 'douche'. but only behind your back. 

 

 

 

 

jk

[chipwhich]

We don't use "wench" anymore.  It's a natural process in the evolution of language.

 

No we use beotch or ho.  Sorry to derail I just found the use of the word wench in this thread funny.  Also claiming our current language is evolving

[Kosher Ham]

Code, I wouldn't call you a cracker...although I have a buddy ( white guy) that calls come of his friends crackers all the time in a joking manner.

The point of Goodell or Snyder calling someone a Redskins is silly. Both of them have...in reference of a football player, team, or coach.

 

I would certainly refer to people as white or black. Never called anyone yellow...never met a yellow person...never met a red person that wasn't burnt from sun damage.

 

My buddy: Who is Code ?

Me: Code..Hmm.. The white guy that teaches school, you remember him right ? You met him at the bbq I had last month, he was wearing the Crocs that we teased him about.

 

See is that statement offensive ( besides the Crocs part) ?  I agree with the retired chief saying the PC crap has gone too far.

[Fan since a Fetus]

There are a lot of things you wouldn't call someone to their face. It depends on context. I wouldn't call an American Indian a Redskin, because you don't. Just like I won't call a large black woman Aunt Jemima.

Now is Aunt Jemima as insensitive as Redskin? I think it can be. We are still talking about a physical trait that cannot be changed, however, it depends on context. I am not arguing that Aunt Jemima offends a small group of people, I am arguing against the 'well you wouldn't call an American Indian a Redskin to their face' statement. No, you wouldn't. It is not even a point to argue.

[S.TaylorMade]

How can we ever again say we are a great fanbase if we give up easily on this issue and the name changes due to the team no longer having fan support? All because "we didn't want to hear it anymore, we give up." That would be embarrassing. The majority of the country and NAs are with us on this issue, don't forget that.

 

See, this is the problem. We think changing the name will hurt other's outlooks on our fan base. But at the same time we don't see how they are slowly seeing our fan base as racists. Sure, I've only had two people come up to me to comment on my poor taste of Redskins apparel and they were both white people and probably not football fans. But slowly, this liberal propaganda has pushed their PC garbage to football fans and players and soon we will see everyone calling us racists. I don't live in the DC area anymore and I don't have a lot of fellow Skins supporters around me. Honestly, I am a little worried about wearing Redskins stuff now and refuse to put a Redskins decal on my new car. Call me a coward but I'm more concerned with my family's well-being than my team's name. If they were trying to take football out of DC, I would come close to sacrificing my life to stop it but this is an easy fix.

[elkabong82]

See, this is the problem. We think changing the name will hurt other's outlooks on our fan base. But at the same time we don't see how they are slowly seeing our fan base as racists. Sure, I've only had two people come up to me to comment on my poor taste of Redskins apparel and they were both white people and probably not football fans. But slowly, this liberal propaganda has pushed their PC garbage to football fans and players and soon we will see everyone calling us racists. I don't live in the DC area anymore and I don't have a lot of fellow Skins supporters around me. Honestly, I am a little worried about wearing Redskins stuff now and refuse to put a Redskins decal on my new car. Call me a coward but I'm more concerned with my family's well-being than my team's name. If they were trying to take football out of DC, I would come close to sacrificing my life to stop it but this is an easy fix.

 

I'm talking about our own perceptions of ourselves. I'd be very upset with this fanbase, embarrassed even, if the team name changed because it lost fan support simply because everyone quit because they were tired of the noise.

 

I couldn't care less what PC, factless morons think. Changing the name would validate them and they'll refer to our past as racist anyway.

 

I don't think you have to worry about putting a Redskins decal on your car or your family's well-being over the team name. There haven't been any kind of incidents reported and again the majority of the country is on our side so we won't soon see everyone calling us racists. I think you're letting the noisy media cause you too much concern.

[thebluefood]

I trust every crusading knight advocating for the name change will be working regularly on reservations to help fight the rampant crime and poverty, right? I mean, these people really care about the Native American community. That's why they're shouting so loudly to get us to change the name. They really, truly care about Native Americans and they're not just posturing to make themselves look like advocates for social change. They actually, truly care about Native Americans and the crippling problems many of them are facing, right?

[Destino]

I trust every crusading knight advocating for the name change will be working regularly on reservations to help fight the rampant crime and poverty, right? I mean, these people really care about the Native American community. That's why they're shouting so loudly to get us to change the name. They really, truly care about Native Americans and they're not just posturing to make themselves look like advocates for social change. They actually, truly care about Native Americans and the crippling problems many of them are facing, right?

You've defined caring about Native Americans as working regularly on reservations. So, do you work regularly on reservations?

[Fan since a Fetus]

I found this interesting, the NCAI and Ray Halbritter are helping to educate everyone about the origin of Redskin. 

 

In a joint statement, NCAI Executive Director Jackie Pata and Oneida Indian Nation Representative Ray Halbritter said: “We applaud the Yocha Dehe Wintun Nation for having the vision and commitment to ensure that the American public receives the message loud and clear that Native Americans strongly oppose the use of this disparaging slur. Contrary to the team’s absurd claims, this dictionary-defined racial epithet does not honor our heritage. The Change the Mascot campaign continues to gather strength every time that people are educated about the origin of the R-word and its damaging impact on Native peoples. By airing this ad during the NBA Championships, the message will be brought into the living rooms of millions of American all across the country.”

 

http://www.prweb.com/releases/washington-redskins/change-the-mascot/prweb11930937.htm