The Official ES All Things Redskins Name Change Thread (Reboot Edition---Read New OP)

[Alaskins]

Say for arguments sake that I can say I don't believe the Slur was used to describe the scalped skins....

 

 

Hello 0 post agenda-fueling SEAHAWKS FAN new member.

[Springfield]

I watched the Daily Show episode.

They tried to make us look bad and outright told Snyder to change the ****ing name.

Did anyone else happen to notice the Native American with the Cleveland Indians tee shirt on?

[BleedBNG]

Having a Slur of questionable benevolence to refer to a team of athletes located in the very same city that ordered these atrocities strikes me as the height of privileged indifference to the pain and suffering of the descendants of the survivors.

 

http://www.unitednativeamerica.com/issues/lincoln.html

 

 

In 1863-64, General Carleton and his subordinate, Colonel Kit Carson, invaded the Navajo land, especially those concentrated in the Canyon de Chelly area. Crops were burned, innocents were murdered, women were raped and general chaos was rained upon these noble people simply because, like the Santee Sioux, they demanded from Lincoln what they had been promised; their land and to be left alone. General Carleton, believing there was gold to be found in the area, stated: "This war, will be pursued against you if it takes years until you cease to exist or move." Again, there was no protest of this policy from Lincoln, his Commander in Chief.

The Navajo were forced to march over 300 miles to Bosque Redondo in eastern New Mexico. Over 200 Navajos died on this march and, eventually, over 2,000 perished before a treaty was signed in 1868. While at Bosque Redondo, the Navajo suffered the vilest conditions; bitter water, no firewood and impossible growing conditions for crops. The soldiers and the Mexican guards subjected the women to rape and humiliating treatment. Children born at this "concentration camp" were lucky to survive their first few months of life.

 

Now you can teach your "privileged indifference" theory to the students of Red Mesa High School.

[grego]

 Having a Slur of questionable benevolence to refer to a team of athletes located in the very same city that ordered these atrocities strikes me as the height of privileged indifference to the pain and suffering of the descendants of the survivors.

 

 

stick around for a bit. with an open mind, you will learn many things. 

 

havent seen much on the daily show piece. i will say that in one brief viewing, it seems the daily show pulled a 'faux news' on the viewers; that is, they let opinions (in some cases, blatantly false 'facts') go unchallenged- all of which supported their position. and by taking a position at the end ('change the ****ing name'), they align themselves with this side. 

 

i'm very much independant, fwiw, and otherwise would appreciate what the daily show is supposed to be about. in this case, i'm not sure if they believe what they say, or are just going along with the easy position and getting some laughs at an easy-to-mock-while-looking-like-you-are-for-the-little-guy target. 

 

the natives proclamation of 'scalps=redskins' is a popular one they went with. the annenberg criticism was another, even with the 'it was conducted in pennsylvania' ambiguous fact thrown in for good measure. 

 

even a mention of the logo 'but it looks cool'. no mention of its origin or how it may differ just a little bit from other native american logo used by sports teams. 

 

the one debatable point about native americans not being mascots might be better were it not for the myriad native american schools that use native american themes as mascots (including 'redskin'). (you mean the daily show pulled some native americans who represent what would appear to be an extreme minority opinion and presented them as representing the population as a whole?)

 

yeah, not good for the team, but, truth be damned, the ratings - and the laughs- were through the roof.

[CommanderDOOM]

does anyone think the negativity that comes with the name can affect the product on the field. We now have announcers and former players refusing to say the name. How many of our own players feel some type of way about it?? Could millions of people's hate for us influence the team's morale. What if refs have issues, other owners, the commish?? What's in a name......

If u quit being a fan of the redskins because of a name change then who needs u. Let us fans choose a new one. Keep the colors. Lets start anew. Kenny Rogers

[Bang]

n were awarded for any other military action in U.S. history (is this the Honor to which Snyder speaks?).

 

The whole etymology defense obscures the brutality of the Native American experience at the direction of the U.S leadership in Washington. Having a Slur of questionable benevolence to refer to a team of athletes located in the very same city that ordered these atrocities strikes me as the height of privileged indifference to the pain and suffering of the descendants of the survivors.

 

I bet the fact there's a team named after Buffalo Bill just burns your britches, doesn't it?

I mean, if just being from the city where men who are long dead gave orders bugs you, a direct nod to one of the biggest players in carrying out those orders probably really has you steamed.

I mean, if youi're going to talk about the HEIGHT of privileged indifference, not even realizing that they do that while you sit here and complain about the Redskins name..   wow,, that really sets anew standard of outrage based apathy.

 

or maybe you do realize it and never considered it while considering how indifferent we are in our white privilege.

or maybe you were just indifferent about it in your privilege.

Or maybe it never occured to you because this one seems so easy.

Or maybe it doesn't matter, because to you the HEIGHT of privileged indifference is to use a word that has been painted as having been a slur, as opposed to honoring a man who did WAY WAY more than slur the Native Americans.

 

Either way, it makes your complaint about the HEIGHT of privileged indifference ring very hollow.

 

Go Bills! Slaughter those herds! Destroy that way of life! Starve thousands of people! Rah Rah Rah! Round up displaced and defeated chiefs! Parade them around the world in a minstrel show! Exploit them! Get rich! Become a national hero by actually DOING all of the things folks like you say the Redskins name stands for!!

Go Bills!

But you Redskins fan,,   why.. you're the height of privileged indifference in your callous disregard for how the word that became your name make us latté drinkers feel. (almond milk, please.)

 

~Bang

[No Excuses]

The part about the Redskins fans being 1/12 Cherokee was funny. That one guy who couldn't even figure out his NA ancestry but apparently he has NA in him smh.

[Larry]

I will confess that, at least according to my brother, who is the keeper of all of the gossip in my family, my mother's mother was 1/2 Crow.  But, the tribe which I, and my father, (not my mother) is a member of is the Citizen's Pottawatomie Nation. 

 

So I guess you could say that I "can't even figure out my NA ancestry". 

 

But the tribe seems to think I'm Native. 

[planter]

I think it means its about damn time...

Well said.

The general public also gets screwed by federal energy/mineral leasing decisions. Decisions often made by former energy company officials serving as as government political appointees (briefly) before they return to their companies.

[JoeWolf990]

The Daily Show skit nailed it in so many ways.

Did anyone else happen to notice the Native American with the Cleveland Indians tee shirt on?

take a closer look at the shirt, friend.

[No Excuses]

I will confess that, at least according to my brother, who is the keeper of all of the gossip in my family, my mother's mother was 1/2 Crow.  But, the tribe which I, and my father, (not my mother) is a member of is the Citizen's Pottawatomie Nation. 

 

So I guess you could say that I "can't even figure out my NA ancestry". 

 

But the tribe seems to think I'm Native. 

 

It's good that you can trace back your NA ancestry to at least some people.

 

It's probably not a smart idea for some people to put it on record, probably on TV like The Daily Show and then say "Yeah I think I'm cherokee but ugh not sure how".

 

Having the Native American group show up to confront the fans wasn't a good thing to do by the Daily Show. It's good that they at least didn't air that portion of the segment.

 

On a separate note:

 

My opinion is still that I find it weird that we have mascots and team names symbolizing minority ethnic groups. I'm not sure how I would feel if my minority ethnic group was used for symbolism in sports, with people occasionally putting on the traditional garb not to celebrate the culture, but as a fashion statement at sporting events. Of course if this happened with my culture, everyone would look goofy as **** so it will never happen but still ... it doesn't even have to be racist for to be just plain weird.

[grhqofb5]

The part about the Redskins fans being 1/12 Cherokee was funny. That one guy who couldn't even figure out his NA ancestry but apparently he has NA in him smh.

 

I know, its like 1/12 is a very very small percentage.  Something like 9%.  Which oddly seems to coorelate to the percentage of native americans that are actually offended by the name "redskins."  Go figure.

[Sticksboi05]

I said this in last night's GDT. I'm probably out on this team if they change the name. It's the team that I care about. There are very few players on this team I really care about. I like RG3, Morris and Kerrigan. After that, they're pretty much all expendable.

If this group of chumps played under any other name if be out. I root for the Redskins, the team.

 

The "Washington" is more important than the "Redskins".

 

I didn't stop being a Bullets fan because they went to Wizards, no matter how terrible a nickname it is.  They still represent my home region.

[Larry]

My opinion is still that I find it weird that we have mascots and team names symbolizing minority ethnic groups. I'm not sure how I would feel if my minority ethnic group was used for symbolism in sports, with people occasionally putting on the traditional garb not to celebrate the culture, but as a fashion statement at sporting events. Of course if this happened with my culture, everyone would look goofy as **** so it will never happen but still

You mean, as opposed to the folks getting dressed up as "Natives"?

But, again. Are they getting dressed up as "Natives"? Or as "Redskins fans"?

Far as I'm aware, there is no race named "Raiders". But that doesn't stop people from getting dressed up for a football game in costumes that Gene Simmons would laugh out loud at.

[Larry]

I know, its like 1/12 is a very very small percentage.  Something like 9%.  Which oddly seems to coorelate to the percentage of native americans that are actually offended by the name "redskins."  Go figure.

Trivia: Actually, it is mathematically impossible to be 1/12 anything.

 

I once had a boss tell me that his faculty adviser told him that a Master's Thesis in which one demonstrated that it is mathematically impossible to be "A fifth of Scotch" was not an acceptable topic.  He explained to me that his mathematical proof would have been to demonstrate that, no matter how many generations one goes back in his family tree, to determine "what percentage of X am I", the result will always be in the form of a fraction in which the denominator will be a power of two.  And it is impossible to reduce a fraction in which the denominator's only factors are twos, to a fraction in which the denominator is a number which has a factor other than two.

 

So, while it may be possible to go back enough generations to yield a fraction which is arbitrarily close to 1/12 (or 1/5, or some other non-two fraction), it will never be equal. 

[No Excuses]

You mean, as opposed to the folks getting dressed up as "Natives"?

But, again. Are they getting dressed up as "Natives"? Or as "Redskins fans"?

Far as I'm aware, there is no race named "Raiders". But that doesn't stop people from getting dressed up for a football game in costumes that Gene Simmons would laugh out loud at.

 

You can play around with the terminology any way you'd like. By donning traditional native american garb, you are at the end of the day, still dressing in a way that associates you with a minority culture, even in the context of a football game. The image representation is that of a Native American alongside of a "Redskins fan". The two are not exclusive of each other.

 

I don't have a huge issue with it. I mean one of the most popular cartoons of my childhood (which I also liked) was one that openly had a white guy do a mock accent of my ethnicity. An accent that pretty much any Indian American kid who grew up in the US was mocked with at some point in middle school or high school, and asked if our fathers sound like that or if they work at 7-11 because you know, Apu sounding people work at 7-11.

 

It's really bizarre and odd to see your culture (or its traditions) represented by people who are either doing it out of context or represented in settings where it doesn't exactly belong (and in some cases completely wrong). There's nothing overly offensive about it at least in my own experience. Just odd and weird.

[Salistala]

Hello 0 post agenda-fueling SEAHAWKS FAN new member.

 

And this means that because I follow another team, I don't have any right to speak of an issue that means something to me?

 

This is my first time posting here, but I've posted on many other forums on Native American/First Nation issues including this one.

 

My Agenda? I am a First Nation person in North America. My people have faced the most brutal treatment in the last two-hundred years, most of what I see amongst my people and the surrounding community is pretty depressing and I feel it is my right to comment on it. You know, the right to free expression?

[Salistala]

William Cody was a repugnant person to be sure, and to have a terrible football team named after him is pretty depressing. That doesn't mean I should give the Washington team name a free pass because there are other, worse team nicknames still in the NFL. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

 

The privilege of the name supporters comes down to a matter of choice. Supporters can choose to use a name some are saying offends them, I have no choice when someone uses that name against me; supporters can choose to ignore the history of oppression, I have no choice but to live in the world that is left after colonization; supporters can choose to label my thoughts on this topic as irrelevant, I have no choice but to speak up in what I perceive as unjust.

 

Indifferent, because it doesn't seem that the history affects you in any other way than some NAs are ruining your Sundays.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

For Christ's sake, Larry, Chief Zee is dressed up as a ****ing Indian Chief. Can we just leave it at that without splitting this particular hair down to the atom?

 

Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I'll leave that up to individual conscience for now. But this semantic game you keep playing is pretty pathetic.

[Larry]

And this means that because I follow another team, I don't have any right to speak of an issue that means something to me?

Something which just happens to "mean something to you", one week before our two teams play each other?

However, I will note that your posts (posts, including this one) certainly appear a lot more thoughtful and polite than the usual trolls who show up here, one week before a game.

I'm certainly willing to read your posts, and attempt to give them the reply that I think they deserve.

For Christ's sake, Larry, Chief Zee is dressed up as a ****ing Indian Chief. Can we just leave it at that without splitting this particular hair down to the atom?

 

Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I'll leave that up to individual conscience for now. But this semantic game you keep playing is pretty pathetic.

So, your position is that if a team has a Native American theme, then fans of said teams are not permitted to show up at games, in costume?

I'll confess, I can kinda see that attitude. I will note, for example, that the Hoggettes manage to dress in, shall I say, a distinctly "Washington Redskins football fan" (as opposed to "Caricature Native American") manner.

However, my point also stands: Just because some drunk idiot gets dressed up in a ridiculous costume does not necessarily mean that he is a racist who is attempting to insult a race he considers beneath him. He may just be a drunk idiot football fan, cheering his team.

[Mr. Sinister]

Something which just happens to "mean something to you", one week before our two teams play each other?

You must have missed where he said it was his first time posting here

[Larry]

You must have missed where he said it was his first time posting here

I didn't notice that he said it, but I was aware of the fact. (Thought somebody else pointed it out.)

[Springfield]

The "Washington" is more important than the "Redskins".

 

I didn't stop being a Bullets fan because they went to Wizards, no matter how terrible a nickname it is.  They still represent my home region.

If this group of chumps were named the Washington Warriors I wold have been out on football after Thursday night. Because they are the Redskins, the team that I grew up watching and cheering for I will continue to watch no matter how bad it gets.

You can pick it apart as much as your heart desires, if it isn't the Washington Redskins then it isn't the same team.

The Redskins keep me watching the NFL, not the other way around.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I said it was a matter of conscience if you want to dress up like a Native American. I wouldn't do it for the same reason I fast forward past the Mickey Rooney scenes in Breakfast at Tiffany's.

[No Excuses]

So, your position is that if a team has a Native American theme, then fans of said teams are not permitted to show up at games, in costume?

I'll confess, I can kinda see that attitude. I will note, for example, that the Hoggettes manage to dress in, shall I say, a distinctly "Washington Redskins football fan" (as opposed to "Caricature Native American") manner.

However, my point also stands: Just because some drunk idiot gets dressed up in a ridiculous costume does not necessarily mean that he is a racist who is attempting to insult a race he considers beneath him. He may just be a drunk idiot football fan, cheering his team.

 

I don't see anyone calling someone dressing like a NA at Redskins game a racist (at least in the last few pages of this thread).

 

Fans are free to show up in games wearing whatever they want. I personally don't think putting on the traditional garb of a culture that has largely been oppressed in this country is appropriate for a football game. Now if society is evolving towards the point where people may not do it anymore because they'll appear racially or culturally insensitive, I really don't have a problem with that. But I wouldn't enforce it. It's up to a persons conscience to make that decision.