armstrong001 Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 31,347 Americans died from gun violence in US last year.Let that number sink in. Are you really going to conflate accidental death, suicide and homicide for this argument? There were also 32,000+ deaths due to "automobile violence" last year too. 8,583 murders were comitted with firearms last year, according to the FBI 2011 crime data http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8. Not 31,347. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Whatever side of the gun rights aisle you sit on, I think (or hope) that most of us see that it's far to easy to get a gun in America.Something needs to change...because the system isn't working like it should. That's the key. I don't believe there should be an outright ban, but I wouldn't lose any sleep if there was. Your point is the key item though. Many of the suspects in these recent mass shootings should have been giant red flags and should not have owned guns, yet they did legally. ---------- Post added December-14th-2012 at 02:45 PM ---------- Are you really going to conflate accidental death, suicide and homicide for this argument? There were also 32,000+ deaths due to "automobile violence" last year too. 8,583 murders were comitted with firearms last year, according to the FBI 2011 crime data http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8. Not 31,347. So, if 8,500 people were murdered in the US last year and everyone concedes that SOME of those happened with legally obtained guns, do we all agree that restricting or banning legally obtained guns would make our country safer? Is there a way to quantify how many homes were protected by a gun owner vs. how many lives were taken by a legally obtained gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armstrong001 Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Yup, that's what stopped Columbine and Virginia Tech...someone with a legally owned gun stepped in and saved lives.... You do realize that because they were in a school zone, any law abiding citizen who may have had an inclination to carry a firearm on to the school grounds for protection would be committing a crime themselves, and would be dissuaded from doing so because they are, by definition, law abiding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chew Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 There will always be someone with the means and lack of sense of self-preservation to obtain and do something stupid with a gun. which is why I'm glad the gov't allows me to own one as well. can you imagine how much more confident criminals with guns would be knowing that citizens no longer have them? car jackings, muggings, any crime that involves face to face interaction would probably skyrocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pride Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 This is completely backwards thinking. So you are saying that if someone at the school had a gun he or she could've shot the person who was shooting the kids? How about if NO ONE HAD A GUN TO BEGIN WITH. I'm sorry but your reasoning is so completely wrong. Just because it's different than yours doesn't make it wrong.. I'm sick and tired of the elitist left thinking people in this country. You are the first people to point and tell someone they're wrong just because they think differently than you. Get over yourself. You both are arguing both ends of the extreme yet don't seem sensible enough to realize it.. Usually the best option can be found in the middle, not by telling someone else they're wrong. Nothing gets accomplished this way and that is the largest problem in this country today in my opinion.. People who are so self absorbed and entitled, so inflexible to accept that maybe there is another way other than their way. Lets look and discuss compromises. Lets find the middle option, the best option. Lets employ logic, broad, and forward thinking to a problem and lets really get a good discussion going on. Anything better than "you're just wrong". For example.. Should laws adapt to changes in society. for example, I've read much on the topic of people are mentally and emotionally maturing much slower in some aspects than they did 50 years ago.. Maybe you put an age limit on gun ownership to 21, or 25. Perhaps we assign a single Police officer to every school in the country.. Perhaps in this way Stugein's idea isn't 100% wrong. Trust me, I think I'm with you about feeling uncomfortable about having Joe Schmoe carrying a gun in my children's school. But a trained Police officer with a firearm is much more acceptable to me.. There are ways we can protect ourselves without alienating half the country. I'm not saying that's an answer or even a good one. But lets start the discussion and keep it going, no one gets served by telling someone they're wrong. We as a country need to be creative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticksboi05 Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 You do realize that because they were in a school zone, any law abiding citizen who may have had an inclination to carry a firearm on to the school grounds for protection would be committing a crime themselves, and would be dissuaded from doing so because they are, by definition, law abiding? I know this. And this adds to the ridiculousness of the argument that someone with a legally purchased gun could've realistically, prematurely ended these tragedies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 We celebrate gun culture and violence in this country. From TV, movies, video games, pop music, military propaganda, etc. It is omnipresent in our day-to-day life in America because it sells and it is very profitable. No gun law is gonna make even the slightest bit of difference until we have a massive culture shift in this country...and that is going to be very difficult to achieve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NAZology Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 This will be a valid point when all guns have internet connectivity. Until then, it's pretty ill-conceived. The government owns all "spectrum" that these carriers use. You are telling me our government can't force gun manufacturers to install technology that allows these guns to be tracked via the internet? I understand the questioning of this theory. My point is, monitor the guns every movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanboyOf91 Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 We celebrate gun culture and violence in this country. From TV, movies, video games, pop music, military propaganda, etc. It is omnipresent in our day-to-day life in America because it sells and it is very profitable. No gun law is gonna make even the slightest bit of difference until we have a massive culture shift in this country...and that is going to be very difficult to achieve. It also doesn't help that 50% of Americans owns a gun and many daily use them for self-defense, armed security, hunting, and pest extermination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebluefood Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Disarming innocents does not protect innocents. This. It's too late for us. This nation was founded with gunpowder. It's in our DNA to have and use firearms, for good and evil. All a ban will do is make sure only criminals will have them. We're not Germany, we're not England, we're not the Netherlands or any other European nation. We're the United States and for better or worse, we have bullets running through our veins along with blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticksboi05 Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Just because it's different than yours doesn't make it wrong.. That's not why it's "wrong", it's just unrealistic for many reasons (like the fact that it will always be illegal to possess weapons on a school ground) to think that the best solution is someone else mowing down a potential shooter instead of there just not being guns to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 This. It's too late for us. This nation was founded with gunpowder. It's in our DNA to have and use firearms, for good and evil.All a ban will do is make sure only criminals will have them. We're not Germany, we're not England, we're not the Netherlands or any other European nation. We're the United States and for better or worse, we have bullets running through our veins along with blood. Our nation was founded on the backs of slavery as well. Shall we return to that route? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 which is why I'm glad the gov't allows me to own one as well. can you imagine how much more confident criminals with guns would be knowing that citizens no longer have them? car jackings, muggings, any crime that involves face to face interaction would probably skyrocket. The problem that most gun advocates (and many anti-gun advocates) have in my experience is that they assume that cause and effect is always a direct one-to-one relationship. It's not actually that straightforward in reality and I promise you that the psychology of prospective criminals wouldn't change in the way you have envisioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I would venture to say that the majority of people who kill others do so with legally obtained property. Are you for the confiscation of all property that may be used by one person to kill another? What do you think is more dangerous, running from someone with a sword in their hand, or running from someone with a 9mm, swhooting at you? Confiscating anything that could be used to kill someone is ridiculous, considering that there are many different ways that people coul dbe killed by others. Do you have a statistic that shows anything coming remotely close to the amount of gun related murdersd in this country per year? Guns are the most effective way of killing people, not getting hit in the head with a brick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 This. It's too late for us. This nation was founded with gunpowder. It's in our DNA to have and use firearms, for good and evil.All a ban will do is make sure only criminals will have them. We're not Germany, we're not England, we're not the Netherlands or any other European nation. We're the United States and for better or worse, we have bullets running through our veins along with blood. This is a bunch of horse manure. Total ****ing bull****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
County1883 Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Our nation was founded on the backs of slavery as well. Shall we return to that route? Awesome post. Touche, if i ever saw one LOL@Bullets running through our veins. Please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 The government owns all "spectrum" that these carriers use. You are telling me our government can't force gun manufacturers to install technology that allows these guns to be tracked via the internet? I understand the questioning of this theory. My point is, monitor the guns every movement. You said there are already 320 million guns. Do you propose that we retrofit them all with this technology? Who pays for the hardware? Who pays for the upkeep of the network and data facilities? What percentage of gun owners will actually comply with any such directive? It is plausible as a future measure but I am telling you that it is a logistical nightmare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
County1883 Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 This. It's too late for us. This nation was founded with gunpowder. It's in our DNA to have and use firearms, for good and evil.All a ban will do is make sure only criminals will have them. We're not Germany, we're not England, we're not the Netherlands or any other European nation. We're the United States and for better or worse, we have bullets running through our veins along with blood. No it wasnt! The American continent was founded by the ancestors of native Americans during the Ice Age.... Your comment would be laughable if it wasn't so sad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 This.I am 31 years of age and have never, ever seen a real gun, in the flesh (so to speak). Serious. No-one i know has one, on-one i know wants one and no-one i know feels the the need to have one. People that have never seen a gun, held one, shot one, been taught how to safely operate one and take care of one are almost always the ones who call for sweeping bans, etc. Not a surprise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 People that have never seen a gun, held one, shot one, been taught how to safely operate one and take care of one are almost always the ones who call for sweeping bans, etc. Not a surprise. Check his location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebluefood Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Our nation was founded on the backs of slavery as well. Shall we return to that route? Slavery is, inherently, wrong because it imposes your will upon others. Humanity is born with the right to liberty. The institution of slaverly contradicts that. On the other hand: guns, while they can be used for great evil (as we saw in Connecticut), aren't inherently evil. To this day, people living in this country depend on guns to provide for their family and themselves for nourishment. Should we take away their livelihood because it isn't like ours?? Also, as others have mentioned, guns are used as a means of self-defense. Do I feel the need to purchase one? No, but if that makes others feel safe (and they don't use it for anything else but self-defense) then who am I to interfere with that right? Are guns used for evil? Absolutely. Are the inherently evil? Absolutely not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter_R Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 It's already illegal to bring guns onto schools. It's already illegal to kill people. There are other "sensible gun laws" that prevent certain people from obtaining guns. Short of banning them, I don't see how this gets prevented by stricter gun laws, short of an outright ban. The more news that comes out, the less "stable" this guy appears to be. We don't yet know where or how this guy gained access to the weapons he used, but I have to assume, much like the Aurora shooter, there were signs that he was spiraling into a dark place. Looking at guns is the wrong track. There's too many, and it is still a right to own them (unless you feel like repealing a part of the bill of rights). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanboyOf91 Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 No it wasnt!The American continent was founded by the ancestors of native Americans during the Ice Age.... Your comment would be laughable if it wasn't so sad This comment is so non-sequitur to his point about American culture and society that it would be laughable if it weren't so sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
County1883 Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 People that have never seen a gun, held one, shot one, been taught how to safely operate one and take care of one are almost always the ones who call for sweeping bans, etc. Not a surprise. Why would me seeing a gun or holding one, change my mind. LOL It is my countries thoughtfulness to realise that having guns available for use does not work in a modern civilized society. I don't feel like i am missing out mate, don't worry about that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elessar78 Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Those calling for an outright ban on guns need to wake up and realize two things.. 1. Criminals will still have guns, and in this country we have a lot of criminals... 2. Our government is corrupt and over the last 20 years we have seen more and more of our liberties striped away and regulated by this government than at any other time in our nations history. You'd have to be blind to not see the direction in which this government (not a Dem/Rep thing, gov't as a whole) is trying to take by attempting to disarm, divide and weaken the population of this country.throwing the baby out with the bath water does nothing and is an idiotic idea.. I say idea because it's not even intelligent enough to be called a "solution". Please specifically enumerate said liberties that have been taken away in the last twenty years. Be specific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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