WE: After school shooting in Connecticut, Piers Morgan blasts America’s ‘gun madness’

[endzone_dave]

Far more are preserved than lost. It's an issue of balance. Do I think that less murders would be comitted with firearms were they to be banned. Yes, but at a high price I'm not willing to pay, and I don't know how many murders overall would be reduced. Would the number of defensive uses of firearms go down, and a corresponding increase in other violent crimes occur if guns were banned? Yes, I do. And judging by the numbers of defensive uses every year (see post 108 or 144), I would argue that many more people would be harmed in a gun ban situation.

Unlikely. Look at the murder rate in 1st world countries where guns are banned.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Maybe. Maybe not. Having to reload weapons = time. Time = lives.

Again, it is not the only solution. I want a ban combined with even more regulation (background checks, wait times, style of weapons). That combined with a serious priority on mental health, especially the lack of coverage.

I don't understand why high capacity clips are legal in the first place. Their ban should have never expired.

How do you not see that limiting the number of rounds someone can shoot in a short period of time could be beneficial?

Because it takes a matter of seconds to change a clip? Sure, you're saving *some* time.

Or bring two guns fully loaded that hold 15 each. Drop one, start shooting with the other.

[Stugein]

Not sure if you're trying to make my point for me but you gave a list where the rule of law ain't exactly entrenched. By a long shot. Apart from Switzerland and canada of course.

I wasn't trying to do anything of the sort. I just love data. In the interest of argument and fair debate, I'm not going to hide data that doesn't prove my point. It is what it is.

[armstrong001]

I don't understand why high capacity clips are legal in the first place. Their ban should have never expired.

How do you not see that limiting the number of rounds someone can shoot in a short period of time could be beneficial?

Do you realize that the "ban" only affected the manufacture of new magazines? Magazines manufactured prior to the ban were perfectly legal to own.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Piers is a Brit, and it is too soon after.

For both of these reasons his comments will be reviled.

[Hunter_R]

I would like to see us tackle this problem on two different fronts.

1) Mental health. One of the biggest failures (of many) in our current health care "system" is in mental health. It just doesn't exist. Most insurance companies don't cover mental health, it is not considered necessary or vital. That needs to end. We have a mental health crisis and families should have a way to get help if they need it and have it covered by their medical insurance.

2) Increased gun control. Full ban on assault-style semi-automatic weapons as well as high-capacity ammunition magazines. Longer, more advanced, and stricter background checks. You should never in any circumstance be able to by a gun the same day. I am not an expert and not steadfast on any of these regulations, but I am open to hearing about what we can do.

Agree with number one. Number two though, sounds like a "feel good" ban.

When you say "style" I say, "Who cares what it looks like?" I say that, because there are plenty of "boring-looking" semi auto weapons. Hi-capacity mags? Again, not much of an issue. The VT guy reloaded many, many times. On that note, the Aurora shooter had an extremely high capacity magazine (a beta-c mag) that probably saved lives. I say that because it jammed on him (as it is wont to do).

Further into number 2, I don't know about this instance, but the Aurora shooter didn't buy the guns the same day. The "waiting time" is thought to disrupt "heat of the moment" incidents. It also delays people who are in fear of their lives from obtaining a gun. Either way, I doubt this guy would've canceled his plans if he had to wait a week.

[HBnotBlades]

Because it takes a matter of seconds to change a clip? Sure, you're saving *some* time.

Or bring two guns fully loaded that hold 15 each. Drop one, start shooting with the other.

Or 5 clips with 6 rounds each. Making it even more difficult to fire off a large number of rounds.

Why does anyone even need the ability to hold 30 shots in the magazine anyway?

I'm a gun owner, I like to shoot skeet. The fact that I can only fire three times before reloading doesn't me enjoy the activity any less.

[abdcskins]

Just because it's different than yours doesn't make it wrong.. I'm sick and tired of the elitist left thinking people in this country. You are the first people to point and tell someone they're wrong just because they think differently than you. Get over yourself.

You both are arguing both ends of the extreme yet don't seem sensible enough to realize it.. Usually the best option can be found in the middle, not by telling someone else they're wrong. Nothing gets accomplished this way and that is the largest problem in this country today in my opinion.. People who are so self absorbed and entitled, so inflexible to accept that maybe there is another way other than their way. Lets look and discuss compromises. Lets find the middle option, the best option. Lets employ logic, broad, and forward thinking to a problem and lets really get a good discussion going on. Anything better than "you're just wrong".

For example.. Should laws adapt to changes in society. for example, I've read much on the topic of people are mentally and emotionally maturing much slower in some aspects than they did 50 years ago.. Maybe you put an age limit on gun ownership to 21, or 25.

Perhaps we assign a single Police officer to every school in the country.. Perhaps in this way Stugein's idea isn't 100% wrong. Trust me, I think I'm with you about feeling uncomfortable about having Joe Schmoe carrying a gun in my children's school. But a trained Police officer with a firearm is much more acceptable to me.. There are ways we can protect ourselves without alienating half the country. I'm not saying that's an answer or even a good one. But lets start the discussion and keep it going, no one gets served by telling someone they're wrong. We as a country need to be creative.

When you are having a debate of course people are going to have dissenting opinions. It's a natural exchange of ideas.

I, for one, think guns are harmful and evil. Therefore, I do not think people should be allowed to own them. When someone says that if people were allowed to carry guns they could shoot the evil people to me that is such nonsense. If you eliminate the problem (the gun) they you don't have to worry about taking out the shooter.

I see your points and that's great that you want to find a middle ground. Of course gun control won't prevent people from getting guns. But it will certainly make it much more difficult. You have to look at it logically. It's the one thing that we can do to perhaps prevent these horrific shootings. It's like security check ins at the airport- it certainly doesn't hurt to screen everyone.

Your idea of having police officers at every school makes sense by the way. Would be a hell of a lot of police officers but it would at least be a quick response.

[armstrong001]

Unlikely. Look at the murder rate in 1st world countries where guns are banned.

And then look at their violent crime rates. This is from 2009, but bears reading when thinking about violent crime overall. 2034 violent crimes per 100,000 people committed in the UK, vs. 466 per 100,000 in the US. While our murder rate is higher, one could argue "civilized" countries like the UK are overall more violent.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Or 5 clips with 6 rounds each. Making it even more difficult to fire off a large number of rounds.

Why does anyone even need the ability to hold 30 shots in the magazine anyway?

I'm a gun owner, I like to shoot skeet. The fact that I can only fire three times before reloading doesn't me enjoy the activity any less.

Well shooting skeet lends itself to shooting twice (not sure why you're firing three times at a skeet target ) and to breaking open your gun and reloading. You shooting skeet and someone shooting targets are two different things entirely.

K, but even with 5 clips and 6 rounds each, damage still gets done.

[Enter Apotheosis]

Because it takes a matter of seconds to change a clip? Sure, you're saving *some* time.

Or bring two guns fully loaded that hold 15 each. Drop one, start shooting with the other.

Why can't the multiple clips, multiple guns strategy also apply to having multiple assault weapons with multiple high capacity clips?

[Spaceman Spiff]

When you are having a debate of course people are going to have dissenting opinions. It's a natural exchange of ideas.

I, for one, think guns are harmful and evil. Therefore, I do not think people should be allowed to own them. When someone says that if people were allowed to carry guns they could shoot the evil people to me that is such nonsense. If you eliminate the problem (the gun) they you don't have to worry about taking out the shooter.

I see your points and that's great that you want to find a middle ground. Of course gun control won't prevent people from getting guns. But it will certainly make it much more difficult. You have to look at it logically. It's the one thing that we can do to perhaps prevent these horrific shootings. It's like security check ins at the airport- it certainly doesn't hurt to screen everyone.

Your idea of having police officers at every school makes sense by the way. Would be a hell of a lot of police officers but it would at least be a quick response.

Well, let's ban knives, too. http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/asia/china-knife-attack/index.html

---------- Post added December-14th-2012 at 09:00 PM ----------

Why can't the multiple clips, multiple guns strategy also apply to having multiple assault weapons with multiple high capacity clips?

Beats me. Sure, you could figure out any number of combinations.

---------- Post added December-14th-2012 at 09:03 PM ----------

Why can't the multiple clips, multiple guns strategy also apply to having multiple assault weapons with multiple high capacity clips?

Beats me. Sure, you could figure out any number of combinations.

[The Evil Genius]

Well, let's ban knives, too. http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/asia/china-knife-attack/index.html

---------- Post added December-14th-2012 at 09:00 PM ----------

Beats me. Sure, you could figure out any number of combinations.

I'm guessing 20 injured (but alive) kids is slightly better than 22 dead ones? Besides, when was the last time you cut your steak with your glock?

[Spaceman Spiff]

I'm guessing 20 injured (but alive) kids is slightly better than 22 dead ones? Besides, when was the last time you cut your steak with your glock?

It is better. My point is, anyone who wants to do damage is going to find a way.

[mike42]

If we bans guns today, you think the mentally insane or gang members are going to turn their guns in? Nope. It will only give more power/leverage towards the criminals/mafia/insane people over the law obeying people. It's that same kind of leverage like what happened, where the teachers didn't have any firearms to protect the children. Sad it has to come to that. Culture is the problem in the country & must increase research on the human brain.

I'm very upset about this story as anyone in the right mind should be, reading about a sick piece of **** shooting those poor kids. I'm sick of seeing shooting sprees in this country where evil acts has no propose that makes no sense.

[SkinInsite]

It is better. My point is, anyone who wants to do damage is going to find a way.

So the mass shootings are just the price of doing business.

[armstrong001]

I'm guessing 20 injured (but alive) kids is slightly better than 22 dead ones? Besides, when was the last time you cut your steak with your glock?

Just because you don't find utility in an object doesn't mean that nobody does. When's the last time you practiced hand/eye coordination with a knife? I do it every time I go to the range. When's the last time you spend bonding time with a family member using a knife? I do every time I go shooting with them. Sure, I could do those things with other objects. But you can cut with a butter knife or fork too.

[The Evil Genius]

It is better. My point is, anyone who wants to do damage is going to find a way.

No ****. Really?

I know..bans & laws don't do anything but attempt to deter. Bad guys will always speed. Eat foie gras. Rob banks. Kill. Own guns. Etc.

But pointing to a lunatic who stabbed 20 kids in China and attempting to equate it to the what..3rd or 4th mass shooting this year(?) and saying that they are equal because someone somewhere will always find a way isn't really wanting to discuss the problem (with guns in America) that I think a lot of us are seeing right now.

Again - getting a gun in this country is too damn easy. The system doesn't work and something needs to be changed.

[armstrong001]

So the mass shootings are just the price of doing business.

I suppose the additional violent crime in countries that ban firearms is the "price of doing business" as well.

[MattFancy]

It is better. My point is, anyone who wants to do damage is going to find a way.

That's the argument I'm hearing from alot of people today.

So just because people are going to do something, we shouldn't do everything in our power to make it more difficult?

[Enter Apotheosis]

Just because you don't find utility in an object doesn't mean that nobody does. When's the last time you practiced hand/eye coordination with a knife? I do it every time I go to the range. When's the last time you spend bonding time with a family member using a knife? I do every time I go shooting with them. Sure, I could do those things with other objects. But you can cut with a butter knife or fork too.

Just because you can find utility with an object doesn't mean that it's the best object to use. There are thousands of ways you could bond with a family member or develop hand-eye coordination without a gun.

[armstrong001]

Just because you can find utility with an object doesn't mean that it's the best object to use. There are thousands of ways you could bond with a family member or develop hand-eye coordination without a gun.

Who are you to decide what is "best"? You chose the "best" option for you, and I'll chose the "best" option for me. There are thousands of ways to cut things too. Doesn't mean they all work great. You could cut your steak with a band saw, piano wire, an axe, or a hockey skate. But you've chosen to cut it with a steak knife, because it's what works for you. I feel the same way about firearms.

[Spaceman Spiff]

No ****. Really?

I know..bans & laws don't do anything but attempt to deter. Bad guys will always speed. Eat foie gras. Rob banks. Kill. Own guns. Etc.

But pointing to a lunatic who stabbed 20 kids in China and attempting to equate it to the what..3rd or 4th mass shooting this year(?) and saying that they are equal because someone somewhere will always find a way isn't really wanting to discuss the problem (with guns in America) that I think a lot of us are seeing right now.

Again - getting a gun in this country is too damn easy. The system doesn't work and something needs to be changed.

That's the argument I'm hearing from alot of people today.

So just because people are going to do something, we shouldn't do everything in our power to make it more difficult?

Also, wanted to show that people seem to want to paint this as an American thing. ****ed up people who want to harm innocents are everywhere, even in places with no gun crimes like China.

[Reic]

My father in law called me today asking about the security at my elementary school. We have a woman sitting at a front desk by the door and thats it, no police presence at all. The middle school I taught at last year had a full time officer... I'm sure a lot will change here soon

[Enter Apotheosis]

Who are you to decide what is "best"? You chose the "best" option for you, and I'll chose the "best" option for me. There are thousands of ways to cut things too. Doesn't mean they all work great. You could cut your steak with a band saw, piano wire, an axe, or a hockey skate. But you've chosen to cut it with a steak knife, because it's what works for you. I feel the same way about firearms.

I'm not saying that you can't do things your way. I'm just saying that the necessity of doing things your way is not what you seem to think it is.