Should Fedex Field upgrade and get Synthetic Turf

[wysknz1]

NO WAY. That game last week with grass and junk stuck in their facemasks was great. All the stains and dirt all over them....Grass forever....

Like Steppenwolf says..."don't step on the grass, Sam"

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I love how there's still a flat 'HELL NO, WE PLAY ON GRASS!' ' yadda yadda from many, whilst major sporting franchises the World over, many more far reaching and equally as big and in some cases bigger than the Redskins have seen the benefit of the advance in the hybrid technology and moved forward with a grass field augmented with that technology for a far better overall surface in most every aspect you care to mention.

We have a bright new era dawning in DC. What is the outright fear in so many to even discuss giving the players that will hopefully take us back to the promised land the very best surface on which to showcase their talents?

Hail.

[Gregpeck99]

Whatever makes RGIII happy!

[romank]

Absolutely not!! Football fields have real grass turf and no roofs.

[IrepDC]

I was always with the grass crowd, but the upgrades to synthetic surfaces have changed my mind. Plus, it's obvious we don't have the grounds crew to upkeep a grass surface. Our field has looked terrible this year. It's time for an upgrade.

[JMUSkins]

Absolutely not!! Football fields have real grass turf and no roofs.

Haha when I read that I saw 'no rooTs'... because, honestly, that's how our field looks!

[PerryMason]

Synthetic is a downgrade. I'd be down for the hybrid for more surface integrity since we have a lot of other sporting events on the field. Down with keeping regular grass too. But HECK NO to full synthetic.

[justice98]

I'm all for grass, if it's not torn up and terrible before the game even starts.

But I'm also for getting with the times. And since we have a track star at QB,I'd prefer to not see him running in that slop every week and would prefer our guys had a better surface.

[SkinsNatsFan]

My mentality has always been as old school as anyone. I've been watching Skins games since the 60's. Muddy, grind it out home games are a major part of the culture and history of the Redskins. Watching the opponent's shiny new star neutralized with "less than ideal conditions" has been a way of life for Redskins fans.

But now the Redskins have, by far, the shiniest new star out there. Reducing the effectiveness of Robert Griffin's world class speed with his own home field in December and January in the name of tradition is not a smart move.

Spend the time and money to find the best alternative to the ridiculous joke of a field they have out there. They are doing their best to maintain it, but it just doesn't cut it anymore. Whatever new surface is currently the best out there for speed players, that also has a track record for fewer injuries. Do the research and get it in place. Improvements are being made to these new surfaces constantly and the risks of injury have been reduced significantly. Give Mr. Griffin every advantage possible on his home field.

[zoony]

so you guys wouldn't miss grass stains?

This thread hurts my heart.

This is freakin football. What needs to be outlawed are domes and candy ass turf teams.

Slow motion shots of grass and dirt flying through the air as a runner gets tackled is what HD TV was invented for

The turf at FedEx sucks but you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater

[#BgMase76#]

It seems like Wilson has tripped in every game this year and two of them were on the turf. I kind of like the Grass field. Just wish we would put new grass down or something b/c youre right it does like terrible.

I've been saying this all season. Wilson is guaranteed to slip in coverage at least once a game. I kept saying they needed to change their spikes for somethinglonger. But Danny boy has to make his money as well. The field does always look piece milled together. Considering our type of offense you'd think they would put more emphasis on field maintenance.

[zoony]

Come on. You know they have a full time grounds crew who maintain the turf. It gets replaced twice per year.Cold weather, rain and wear and tear makes it difficult for turf to stay "pretty" in late November and December. At one time, FedEx Field had a state of the art drainage system under the turf. Don't know if it is still "state of the art" but it can't be more than a few years from that standard if it has not been improved.

A grass field is never going to look as "pretty" as artificial turf. Will guys slip from time to time...yes...nature of the beast no matter where you play.

Other teams that play on grass have much better looking fields than we do

[RemoveSnyder]

Lambeau is about as old-school as the gold standard.

They went hybrid.

It combines the Desso grassmaster to secure the the pitch and maintain drainage, along with the natural bluegrass intertwined.

http://www.packersnews.com/article/99999999/PKR04/707120720/Lambeau-Field-by-numbers

Not-so-frozen tundra

♦ In 2007, the Packers installed GrassMaster high-tech turf at Lambeau Field. Made by Belgium-based Desso DLW Sports Systems, the turf uses strands of polyethylene and polypropylene 8 inches below the surface with 1 inch exposed on the top.

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http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/29409724.html

Four months later, he walks out on to Lambeau Field. It's an emerald green canopy that looks like a 100-yard fairway, only missing the bubbling brook and weeping willow. Just a hint of blue from the NFL logo remains.

Personally I've always like kentucky bluegrass, which is what Lambeau uses in conjunction with the desso base. It's apparently a tricky grass dealing with drought and excess heat. So that seems to be why fedex uses bermuda grass - "419 tifway bermudagrass."

Personally I've never been a fan of bermuda grass (see byrd stadium).

[GhostRider]

I'm a fan of grass. But THIS team would benefit greatly from turf. 3 games played in muddy conditions. I've worried about the field everytime. Against Atlanta slip and concussion, against Pittsburgh sloppy play(mostly drops admittedly, but also rg3's worst game), and last game goes down awkwardly and sprains a knee. Do it the dan, buy the softest, lushest, synthetic turf there is and our offense will be money.

[drjiveturkey]

As long as it doesn't cause and increase in season ticket cost, I'd be okay with it. Fedex is hosting more events during the year and its wearing down the surface. Can we do something about covering up the support beams too while we are at it.

[Thiebear]

Seems like the tape on the forearms went away so the turf has to be improving. I'm old, i like some mud and dirty uniforms.

[quettefan]

Some of the biggest soccer clubs on the planet have switched over to this system, as well as the Broncos, Eagles and Packers FWIW:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desso_GrassMaster

Hail.

I went to Denver for the Great American Beer Festival and went on a tour of Invesco field (during one of the sober periods). The guide showed a presentation of how their field was designed and all the while I was thinking "Wow, this is really cool .... I wish FedEx had this turf"

[JMUSkins]

I went to Denver for the Great American Beer Festival and went on a tour of Invesco field (during one of the sober periods). The guide showed a presentation of how their field was designed and all the while I was thinking "Wow, this is really cool .... I wish FedEx had this turf"

Pretty cool stuff, actually. Here's an interesting image of how that stuff works. It's like synthetic hair plugs for your real grass!

[RemoveSnyder]

Very few of the recent posters have actually read the thread.

They are exemplifying an individual who reads the title, then enters and posts an opinion, without actually reading the thread for the information previously provided.

Here's a post to read, absorb and watch. It was fairly early-on, in the discussion.

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?371120-Should-Fedex-Field-upgrade-and-get-Synthetic-Turf&p=9173404&viewfull=1#post9173404

[JMUSkins]

Very few of the recent posters have actually read the thread.

They are exemplifying an individual who reads the title, then enters and posts an opinion, without actually reading the thread for the information previously provided.

Oldfan? I'm just kidding Seriously, though. People can have the same concepts and similar knowledge/experiences that merit re-iteration. It's not a big deal IMHO.

[Twofoot]

For the next 30 minutes you can get a view of what it would look like (St. James' Park)-

ESPN2- Newcastle v. Man City

-When I say 'it' of course I mean the Desso Grassmaster

[rick7423]

After watching last nights game, enhancing the field with this hybrid grass system might not be a bad idea. The field got really messy last night. since we are going to be a perennial playoff team from now on (optimistically), the field should look and play like one befitting the teams success.

[RemoveSnyder]

The issue is that you don't get sunlight in December or January.

The air temperature can be well above freezing (32°F, 0°C) but without the constant stimulus of the sun's rays, plants, including grass, go dormant in the winter months.

Like today or yesterday, here in the mid-Atlantic, despite some rain and overcast skies, the air temperature is rather mild. It's a cool low 60s kind of day, maybe upper 50s, depending on where you're at. Though not warm, there's a current of mild air you feel when outside. Yet despite that, without the sun, things don't grow. It's January? you ask - Feels like March, some ambiguous time in Spring.

That's the climate we're in now. Winter really isn't Winter in DC. Typical DC winter, growing up, I'd describe winter as annoyingly cold, cloudy and dark. From around 45 to 55 degrees and gray. If you want winter go to Alaska. I'd much rather have something bold and in your face than this - (I'm digressing).

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In a different thread, someone panned the idea that the field at Fedex needed to be improved, claiming that the field at whatever they call Mile-High these days, in Denver, was just as bad.

People are divided on the subject. I get that.

Just so that there is complete transparency, the Denver field incorporates the Desso system. That synthetic twining substance which is supposed to help the real grass that is grown there to grow deeper and fuller and hold stronger against people in cleats tearing it up.

The poster cited that the Denver field was falling apart, with the implication that it was just as bad as Fedex field.

I watched the first half of the Baltimore v. Denver game before I fell asleep. I didn't notice the same level of degradation that the poster implied. I looked at the field and it looked more rich in growth than Fedex. I guess I need to go back to watch the game to look at the grass instead of the game itself -

Anyway, I took that poster's comments to inspire me here, to talk about the Redskins field.

I don't know if the Denver field incorporates the same level of high tech initiatives that Lambeau does. Read further.

As far as I know, Lambeau still has a heating system buried underneath its field. I'm sure that helps to counteract temperatures that would freeze the ground, essentially killing any growth of grass in the winter months.

BUT still, the issue remains that grass needs sunlight to grow. You can't expect grass to grow simply by adding chemicals to it, or dousing it in water and you can't fool the eyes of millions of Redskins fans by painting over the dirt in a green colour. We can see.

I kept thinking to myself, what if there was some sort of lattice work assembled, some sort of "grow lamp" assemblage that could be run during the months of November, December and January, at night time, (or what we call night time in the winter months) those hours of the day, from 4 pm to 8pm, when in the summer months those invaluable hours are what keep the grass "percolated."

Can we artificially create enough warmth and "sun light" in order to fool the grass into thinking it's still September? To fool it into thinking it's still time to keep growing?

And after a bit of a search, I found that I'm not just thinking up impractical ideas in my head, they actually exist:

http://www.sglconcept.com/en/index.htm

SGL is a company specialized in solving problems with grass growth in partly or fully covered stadiums

...

from: http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2012/01/14/sports/field-1.html

The artificial lighting system at Lambeau Field was created by a Dutch firm.

^ they are referring to SGL.

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Here's a practical explanation of the SGL system. The example is the Mariner's baseball field. Seattle knows about clouds and gloom, trust, I lived there.

Video included:

http://www.king5.com/sports/mariners/Safeco-Field-groundskeepers-brining-in-some-European-sunshine-143387166.html

Stadium Grow Lighting, a Netherlands company, rolled out a mobile lighting system that has been greening up soccer fields around the world. The lights are tuned to the optimum level of photosynthetically active radiation to stimulate grass growth in even the darkest corners of the field and this time of year Safeco has plenty of them.

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Look here, Lambeau does it too:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/14/sports/football/tenderizing-the-packers-tundra-with-light-and-heat.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

And that impossibly green grass these days, despite the calendar turn to January? Trace it, in large part, to a new system of artificial lighting employed to counter the meek late-autumn sunshine in Wisconsin.

Green Bay’s famed “frozen tundra,” besides being redundant — tundra is, by definition, frozen — is downright tropical, even during the N.F.L. playoffs.

Info on the underground warming system:

The ground below Lambeau Field has been heated since 1967, when Coach Vince Lombardi oversaw the installation of electric coils that zig-zagged under the turf like wires in an electric blanket. The aim was to keep the ground soft enough so that cleats could grab hold and players could keep their footing.

For 30 years, those coils kept Lambeau Field soft, with one exception. That came months after installation, when the Packers played host to the Cowboys for the 1967 N.F.L. championship. Temperatures well below zero were too much for the system. The field grew stiff and slick. The game was nicknamed the Ice Bowl. Writers in the aftermath dubbed the playing surface the “frozen tundra.” The term stuck. It remains frozen in time.

The electric coils were replaced in 1997 by a system of pipes filled with a solution including antifreeze. These days, the temperature of the soil is controlled by the field manager Allen Johnson. With temperatures Sunday expected to be in the 20s, Johnson will probably set the soil temperature to about 40 degrees. That will be enough to offset the subfreezing air temperature and keep the field soft.

While heating the soil at Lambeau Field is a concept about as old as the Super Bowl, the artificial lighting system used there is a burgeoning technology, designed by the Dutch firm S.G.L. — Stadium Grow Lighting. The founder of the company, Nico van Vuuren, tweaked a system he built for growing roses. He plans to attend his first N.F.L. game Sunday in Green Bay.

In essence, the system is a complex grid of retractable arms lined with hundreds of greenhouse-type light bulbs. After a trial run in 2010, the Packers bought nine MU360 units, as they are called, enough to cover half the field.

The contraption fools Mother Nature. Johnson used the lights 24 hours a day from October to early December, moving them every other day between games.

Johnson said grass needs three vital elements to grow well: warm soil (check, thanks to Mr. Lombardi), good light (check, thanks to Mr. van Vuuren) and warm air (hmmm).

S.G.L., which does much of its business on European soccer fields, is just now making inroads in North America. Many soccer stadiums are built like boxes, a field surrounded by steep stands and a partial roof to help shield fans from rain. Some fields, or parts of them, get little or no sun.

The Houston Astros have joined the Packers and the Red Bulls as the only professional American franchises to use the system.

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As to whether it's cost effective or not - IDK. Probably really expensive. Installation fees is one thing, but the energy used to run those lamps for hours and hours each day.

Gee, I wish we were an organization that was valuable or something, you know, was worth a lot of money, generated a lot of money, 'cause that might help.

And that’s the rub. To install the Desso system, lots of money - but worth it.

To install the SGL photosynthetically active radiation system and run it, lots of money - but worth it.

OR I should say, if you care about the product on the field, the way in which fans appreciate your team/club, the way in which your organization is perceived by the larger population, if setting the gold standard is top priority rather than settling, if providing the best for your players is your goal, then it's worth it.

IF you want none of the above mentioned and want to be just like the rest, then upgrading the field with the best available technology isn't for you.

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I know who the head groundskeeper of the Packers is, his name is Allen Johnson.

http://www.packers.com/team/front-office.html

^ Look, it's on the team website. The front office staff details his name, it's not buried from sight like their radiant heating system. It only took a quick search to find it.

Facilities And Fields

Ted Eisenreich, Director of Facility Operations

Mike Moynihan, Assistant Director of Facility Operations

Justin Dantzman, HVAC Manager

Todd Edlebeck, Facilities Manager

Allen Johnson, Fields Manager

Anne Larson, Facilities Office Manager

John Wurzer, Electrical Manager

Bill Rasmussen, Maintenance Supervisor

Dave Tilot, Maintenance Supervisor

Brad "Gus" Gustafson, Manager of Atrium Operations

Bill Miller, Plumber/Beverage Systems Technician

Dale Vannieuwenhoven, Janitorial Coordinator

Bill Roubal, Electrical Assistant

Matthew Compton, HVAC Assistant

Dennis Laurent, HVAC Assistant

Clyde Watson, HVAC Assistant

Derek Paris, Fields Assistant

Bart Bartelme, Fields Assistant

Joel Hunt, Fields Assistant

Eric De Mars, Maintenance Assistant

Corey Wentland, Maintenance Assistant

Sarah Pace, Atrium Operations Lead

Dan Skaleski, Atrium Operations Lead

Israel Torres, Atrium Operations Lead

Christi Marcks, Administrative Assistant – Facilities

^ LOOK at that list. My god, the whole team is prominently displayed.

What about the Redskins, do they prominently display the "field manager's" name?

here: http://www.redskins.com/team/front-office.html

^ I can't find it, no mention.

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There are reasons why there are a multitude of articles from established news outlets, to blogs, to the manufacturing website of Desso and SGL themselves talking about Lambeau, it's because the Packers are dedicated to providing the best field possible. And I don't even follow them at all. I'm not some Packers closet fan, I just recognize what amount of resources they pour into that field and stadium. I've gleaned this information just from a few quick searches, a couple of times this year, alone.

I didn't do any significant research here, this info is readily available.

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I know the head groundskeeper for the Atlanta Braves, his name is Ed Mangan.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110407&content_id=17476260&vkey=news_atl&c_id=atl

Mangan the man behind Turner Field's beauty

Mangan has spent the past 10 years as the NFL's field director for the Super Bowl.

It's available from a quick search.

I've known about the lauded Atlanta Braves grounds crew for many years, since I'm a baseball fan, I follow the league. Their work is well regarded and well documented.

Here's a little vignette about his thinking:

http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-braves-blog/2012/04/16/new-infield-grass-at-turner-field-designed-to-be-slower/

Paspalum was originally found in sand dunes of South Africa, Mangan said, and is used on beach area golf courses because it can withstand a higher salt content in water. What makes it useful for the Braves is that it’s a little softer than the hybrid Bermuda “419” they’ve used for years.

“Just looking for something to take a little bit more speed out of the ball on the infield,” Mangan said. “So far so good. So we’ll see how it pans. But just walking on it, you can tell a big difference.”

The man is a mad scientist. He's going to the sand dunes of South Africa (not literally ... at least I don't think) to find his grass. He's mixing it around with different varietals until he finds his formula. The one that works best for the players.

I remember a summer or two ago watching a program on the MLB channel and it was a series documenting the Atlanta grounds crew and Magan's work ethic.

What I remember is not the specifics, I don't recall the variety of seed he used or the how much fertilizer he had per square yard or the watering cycles or how much money was spent to maintain the ground. What I do remember thinking was: "that man works all day and all night at maintaining the field." I remember thinking he's mad, brilliant and probably underpaid.

I watched their entire crew work their tail off to prep a field to a pristine level, have it churned up after a night game then prep for hours, at dead of night, to get ready for an afternoon matinee game.

Throughout the documentary he was often shown consulting the players and taking their advice as to how to better the field, how to get more bounce and responsiveness from the ground and grass.

He would talk to Chipper Jones often, after games to get detailed analysis of how the field was working.

In one game, a ground ball was hit toward Jones and took an odd bounce just before it got to the 3rd baseman. Jones bobbled it in his mitt, he "kicked it" and was credited with an error. An average person would have just assumed that Jones made a mistake. Though Mangan isn't just your average someone. He's paying attention.

Mangan noticed it, he made it his priority to meet with Jones first thing after the game - get this, to apologize and find out what happened. After getting the details from Jones, Mangan spent the night tearing down the ground in front of 3rd base and building it back up, personally, himself, in order to have ready for the next day's game.

He was determined to eliminate any flaws in the ground surface, smooth it out, so as to not have the baseball "eat up" Jones again - in order to avoid any possible error that Jones could incur, to further propel the future Hall of Famer's career.

The man is dedicated.

And I know about him because others want to the world to know about someone as lively and committed as he is. All I had to do was do an internet search or turn on the tube.

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I don't know who the head groundskeeper for the Redskins is.

All I've been able to find is something on the assistant groundskeeper for the practice facility, here: http://www.goerie.com/article/20120523/BASEBALL01/305239916/Former-Uht-park-groundskeeper-joins-Washington-Redskins

Jeff Foor anticipates challenges in his new job as assistant groundkeeper for the Washington Redskins' practice facility.

I don't stumble upon vignettes in the NY Times or from established media outlets or Desso, SGL themselves, or anything substantial, about the Redskins ground crew, the innovations to the field or the merits of their work.

I don't want to be incendiary.

I want to say that whoever it is, certainly is doing something that I haven't dedicated my life to, nor something that I understand in an intuitive way. I'm not trying to belittle the people that work hard to maintain the field. I'm sure they are dedicated in their own right. I want to highlight the organizations that have provided, to their dedicated workers, the best systems, technologies possible, to create the best field. I'm sure it's a very difficult and taxing job. But like in all walks of life, there are Picassos in any field of work, even grounds crew.

I don't think we have a Picasso with the Redskins. Do we massive?

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From here: http://www.landscapeonline.com/research/article/3867

NFL’s Washington Redskins; ... all are using turf heating systems to ensure year-round ideal playing surfaces.

The Redskins apparently have a heating system in place for the field. I assume it's something like radiant floor heating, a system of tubing circulating warmed liquid in order to counteract the chilling temperature from the air.

I tend to think that DC, NOVA, MD stays relatively mild throughout Nov. Dec. and Jan, the ground temperature doesn't seem to be the issue. The issue to me seems to be the attempt to try and replicate the amount of sunlight the ground receives, comparable to the summer months.

It's impossible to replicate that completely. But let's be honest, even in the Summer, a field that is surrounded by concrete and cinder blocks is not going to get as much sunlight as a field that's wide open. There's an inherit disadvantage that Fedex has because it's surrounded by giant grand-stands.

The extended hours of intense sunlight during the afternoon hours, in the Summer, more than enough spurs the growth of the grass. In the Winter, no.

I understand that DC is generally thought to be in a warm weather climate. I don't want the discussion to turn to global ecosystems or biology or even atmospherics trend, climate change or the rest. My father (RIP), a meteorologist for NOAA, probably could have spoken on those matters.

DC, at least to me, is in that middle ground of climate, some hot summer weather (you'd describe it as southern) and some cooler type winters, but not "frozen" like up north.

It's not in the sunbelt, like Arizona or Florida or the deep south. So it’s in-between the region for the predominate Bermuda grass growing and yet it’s southerly enough to be removed from the colder temperature of Wisconsin, at Lambeau, where they use the Kentucky Bluegrass.

However, we still are afflicted by the diminishing sunlight, regardless of the climate. Minute by minute, then hour by hour we lose the sun. And we even change the hours on the clock but that doesn't help.

I believe that in conjunction with the Desso Grass system, perhaps mixing varietals besides the Bermuda grass (Tifway 419 or something), perhaps reseeding a Bluegrass in there as well, but most importantly, using a system to help spur more growth through the Photosynthetically Active Radiation system, that could help maintain natural grass and have it growing strong into the playoff season.

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photos of their work below:

http://www.sglconcept.com/en/sglconcept.htm

In conclusion:

I want someone that is willing to tear down the field and build it back up just because a random player slipped on some random play in some random 2nd quarter. I want to see an organization dedicated to the best of technologies, in order to produce the best of fields. I want to know our grounds crew BY NAME. I want a mad scientist heading all operations of the field, someone to innovate.

As Martin Lawrence would say: "What The problem IS?"

And from that, I take my cue. The pizza is valuable. If the pizza symbolizes all that is valuable about the Redskins, we want the pizzas in the right hands.

The players deserved the best to protect their bodies. We as fans deserve to have an Org leading the way, not middling. If the Redskins won't address the field, then the fans need to keep providing the whys and the hows by showcasing those other organizations across the world of sport, who do get it.

In short, protect the pizzas. "I don't wanna leave 'em with Shamu over there."

[Warpath11]

The issue is that you don't get sunlight in December or January.

Great post and some fantastic research someone send this over to whom ever is in charge of decision making regarding the field at FedEx. Kudos Monk awsome job on that post!

[RemoveSnyder]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/redskins/2013/01/09/nflpa-fedex-field-conditions/1821311/

How bad is the playing surface at FedExField? - Not good enough.

The NFL Players Association is calling for an upgrade to the natural grass field at the Washington Redskins' home stadium in the wake of the NFC wild-card playoff game on Sunday that saw Redskins quarterback Robert Griffin III and Seattle Seahawks defensive end Chris Clemons suffer torn knee ligaments.

The condition of the field drew sharp criticism from Seahawks coach Pete Carroll and several players but passed the league's certification standards.

"The head coach and players have said themselves that the field was not up to snuff," NFLPA spokesman George Atallah told USA TODAY Sports on Wednesday. "We certainly hope that they upgrade it."

Redskins coach Mike Shanahan acknowledged the issues with the field Monday. He said that the team will try to address the field for next season but cautioned that a switch to a surface such as FieldTurf could raise other questions related to injuries.

"You like a perfect field," Shanahan said. "It wasn't a perfect field. We all know that."

The NFLPA conducts an annual survey of NFL playing fields but has yet to reveal its findings for this season. In its most recent survey, released before last year's Super Bowl, Atallah said that FedExField ranked in the middle of the pack.

"Things seem to have gotten worse since then," Atallah said.

Even so, NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said the Redskins complied with a set of standards that each home team must meet. Lack of compliance is subject to discipline from NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell.