Multiple Sources: Multiple shot including Congress Woman

[Mooka]

The cynic in me wonders if you've heard he's a giant db because the powers that be have decided to paint him that way. After all, I couldn't tell you much about the personality of the sheriffs in my home county how would I know anything about one across the country... so, I take how he is painted with a little skepticism esp. when some pretty heavy hitters seem to have it out for him. Then again, you may be right and he may be king of the jerks. Who knows.

I've heard stories about Dupnik years before this happened. Have a couple good friends from Tucson. One's even a cop.

There's something wrong with the sheriff's in that state....

[Dan T.]

Deleted post.

[Stadium-Armory]

Curious to know how those on the right feel about this idea.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/11/AR2011011105685.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Dangerous outcomes from a culture of paranoia

Last October, Glenn Beck was musing on his radio show about the prospect of the government seizing his children if he didn't give them flu vaccines. "You want to take my kids because of that?" he said. "Meet Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson."

Last April, Erick Erickson, the managing editor of the right-wing RedState blog and a CNN commentator, was questioning the legality of the Census Bureau's American Community Survey on a radio show. "We have become, or are becoming, enslaved by the government. . . . I dare 'em to try to come to throw me in jail. I dare 'em to. [i'll] pull out my wife's shotgun and see how that little ACS twerp likes being scared at the door."

Do right-wing talk show commentators incite violence against the government? Feel free to draw your own conclusions - but to dwell on the rise of violent rhetoric on the right is to miss an even bigger, though connected, problem. Let's focus, rather, on the first part of Beck's and Erickson's observations: The government wants to take away Glenn Beck's (and by extension, your) kids. The government wants to take a census and will throw Erick Erickson (and by extension, you) in jail if he, and you, don't comply.

Can we see the hands of all the kids taken from their parents because they didn't get flu shots? How about all those people rotting in jail because they didn't cooperate in compiling the census?

The primary problem with the political discourse of the right in today's America isn't that it incites violence per se. It's that it implants and reinforces paranoid fears about the government and conservatism's domestic adversaries.

Much of the culture and thinking of the American right - the mainstream as well as the fringe - has descended into paranoid suppositions about the government, the Democrats and the president. This is not to say that the left wing doesn't have a paranoid fringe, too. But by every available measure, it's the right where conspiracy theories have exploded.

A fabricated specter of impending governmental totalitarianism haunts the right's dreams. One month after Barack Obama was inaugurated as president, Beck hosted a show that gamed out how militias in Southern and Western states might rise up against an oppressive government. The number of self-proclaimed right-wing militias tripled - from 42 to 127, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center - in 2009 (and that doesn't count those that are entirely underground).

As much of the right sees it, the government is planning to incarcerate its enemies (see Beck and Erickson, above), socialize the economy and take away everyone's guns. At the fringe, we have figures like Larry Pratt, executive director of the Gun Owners of America, who told a rally in Washington last April that, "We're in a war. The other side knows they are at war, because they started it. They are coming for our freedom, for our money, for our kids, for our property. They are coming for everything because they are a bunch of socialists."

But the imputation of lurking totalitarianism, alien ideologies, and subversion of liberties to liberals and moderates has become the default rhetoric of the right. Never mind that Obama is a Marxist, a Kenyan and an advocate of sharia law. Consider the plight of poor Fred Upton, the Republican congressman just installed as chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, over considerable right-wing opposition. According to Beck, Upton is "all socialist," while Rush Limbaugh calls him the personification of "nannyism" and "statism." Upton's crime is that he supports more energy-efficient light bulbs. How that puts him in a league with Marx, Engels and Nanny McPhee, I will leave to subtler minds.

American politics and culture have a rich history of paranoia, as historian Richard Hofstadter and many others have documented. Many of the incidents of anti-government violence over the past couple of years - flying a plane into an IRS building in Texas, shooting police officers in Pittsburgh and carrying out last weekend's savagery in Tucson - came from people who, however individually loony they may have been, also harbored paranoid visions of the government that resembled, though by no means entirely, those put forth by the Becks and the Ericksons.

That doesn't make Beck, Erickson, Rupert Murdoch and their ilk responsible for Tucson. It does make them responsible for promoting a paranoid culture that makes America a more divided and dangerous land.

[Prosperity]

a bullet "passed" through her brain and she's alive and moving her arms? That is amazing.

[twa]

Curious to know how those on the left feel about this idea.

Conservatives who have watched liberals blame them for an awful shooting understand exactly what I mean when I say this: that issuing a brutally ugly and false accusation, while wearing a mask of smiles and civility, is not civil. It is ugly and partisan and disgusting — far more so than any inflamed rhetoric, as long as that rhetoric is honest — and free from actual threats of violence. (To illustrate the difference: “We need to target our political opponents!” is not an actual threat. “If I ever meet up with you, I swear to god I’ll ****ing kill you!” is.)

http://patterico.com/

or if you prefer

Much of the culture and thinking of the American left - the mainstream as well as the fringe - has descended into paranoid suppositions about the conservatives, the Republicans and the former president. This is not to say that the right wing doesn't have a paranoid fringe, too. But by every available measure, it's the left where conspiracy theories have exploded.

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/

[Stadium-Armory]

Curious to know how those on the left feel about this idea.

Conservatives who have watched liberals blame them for an awful shooting understand exactly what I mean when I say this: that issuing a brutally ugly and false accusation, while wearing a mask of smiles and civility, is not civil. It is ugly and partisan and disgusting — far more so than any inflamed rhetoric, as long as that rhetoric is honest — and free from actual threats of violence. (To illustrate the difference: “We need to target our political opponents!” is not an actual threat. “If I ever meet up with you, I swear to god I’ll ****ing kill you!” is.)

http://patterico.com/

or if you prefer

Much of the culture and thinking of the American left - the mainstream as well as the fringe - has descended into paranoid suppositions about the conservatives, the Republicans and the former president. This is not to say that the right wing doesn't have a paranoid fringe, too. But by every available measure, it's the left where conspiracy theories have exploded.

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/

Fair enough. I think what I'm hearing you say, with specific regard to the supposition that there is a culture of paranoia on the right towards the government -- is that it is false and doesn't exist. Is that correct? Also, I'm wondering if you can address the question with an answer other than "the left does it too". That may be true, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking if you think its possible that there might be an anti government culture, a paranoid one even, on the right. The answer may be no, I'm just wondering what you think.

[oisn1]

Much of the culture and thinking of the American left - the mainstream as well as the fringe - has descended into paranoid suppositions about the conservatives, the Republicans and the former president. This is not to say that the right wing doesn't have a paranoid fringe, too. But by every available measure, it's the left where conspiracy theories have exploded.

I'm not going to lie, that is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard about conspiracies. Are you telling me that, today, the right doesn't have the lion's share of conspiracy theories. Let me drop some off of the top of my head.

George Soros the puppet master.

Obama's birth certificate.

New Black Panthers taking over and Holder is with them.

Liberal false flag operations in regards to conservatives committing terrorism (adkisson and the guy who ran a plane into the IRS)

FEMA camps.

Socialist takeover of America.

The content of most every episode of Glen Beck's program.

Should I keep going on? Let's be real here, the right wing has taken on the role of wearing the tinfoil hats. It's not something special to the right wing, it has to do with Obama and a liberal being elected. The liberal wingnuts were in full force when Bush was in office.

I'm not going to debate whether or not the right wing's rhetoric is more violent than the Left's fringe as, that will only lead to another instance of partisan rationalizing. But let's be real about where the conspiracy theories are coming from at this point in time.

[China]

Glad to hear she'll survive and is regaining her motor skills. The brain has an amazing capacity to re-wire itself. I hope she hasn't lost permanently any significant brain functions. Do they think she'll regain her speech?

[MrSilverMaC]

This sheriff specifically tied the violence of this man and right wing rhetoric. There is no tie. There wasn't when he conjectured about it there isn't now. IMO a professional LEO ,especially in a catastrophic case like this, needs to stick to the FACTS and no this own preconceived political irritants.

There is no less of a tie here than for cops to blame rap music. In that instance it's ok, but this is not?

[twa]

Fair enough. I think what I'm hearing you say, with specific regard to the supposition that there is a culture of paranoia on the right towards the government -- is that it is false and doesn't exist. Is that correct? Also, I'm wondering if you can address the question with an answer other than "the left does it too". That may be true, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking if you think its possible that there might be an anti government culture, a paranoid one even, on the right. The answer may be no, I'm just wondering what you think.

The right is a rather large(and growing) crowd,but you will find most embrace and support government rather fervently(perhaps too much so at times)

The problem as I see it is as the power of government has increased you have a natural rise in fear of that power being abused(you will see that fear mirrored by many on the left opposing the Patriot act ect)

Is it paranoid to want to be left to your own devices?

oisin1

you can easily compile a mirror list for liberals conspiracy's....lotta people live for that crap

[Sticksboi05]

Glad to hear she's going to be OK but remember there were 6 people who actually were killed in this tragedy.

[Stadium-Armory]

The right is a rather large(and growing) crowd,but you will find most embrace and support government rather fervently(perhaps too much so at times)

The problem as I see it is as the power of government has increased you have a natural rise in fear of that power being abused(you will see that fear mirrored by many on the left opposing the Patriot act ect)

Is it paranoid to want to be left to your own devices?

That is a very fair and reasonable assessment. We should all question and discuss what amount of government is appropriate, and I don't suggest that doing so is paranoid.

But to suggest that the government will come and take your children because you decline the flu shot, is a bit over the top maybe?

[oisn1]

you can easily compile a mirror list for liberals conspiracy's....lotta people live for that crap

Yes I can, but that's not the point of my post. The point is to highlight that conspiracy theories tend to be cyclical. When the left is in charge, the right bugs out. When the right is in charge, the left bugs out. The theories are different but the reasoning is the same; fear and paranoia. It just so happens that at this point, the right is the side that is setting up the conspiracies and paranoia. Just as we'll all admit that the left did the same during Bush's presidency (especially the second term).

What's important to try and realize is that our political discourse must be separate from this paranoia. It should be easy to spot the crazies when they spew venom because our normal discourse should have some level of civility. I think it is fair to say that our discourse has grown more an more polarizing. Our presidents become usurpers, our politicians are puppets, and so on. Disagreements should be expected, but if you hear someone say that "liberalism" or "conservatism" is going to bring the country down, we should be aware enough to not listen. Our country was made great by the push and pull between progressives and conservatives. I think we can all agree on that.

Finally, it's great to hear that congresswoman Gifford is doing well. Hopefully the other who were not so fortunate can rest in peace and we can become a better nation from their sacrifice.

[twa]

T

But to suggest that the government will come and take your children because you decline the flu shot, is a bit over the top maybe?

Maybe a bit,but after dealing with schools and immunizations I could see the possibility of it happening with some bureaucrats....goes back to how much power they wield ....pettiness, inflexibility and control can lead some funny places

[Burgold]

The point is to highlight that conspiracy theories tend to be cyclical. When the left is in charge, the right bugs out. When the right is in charge, the left bugs out. The theories are different but the reasoning is the same; fear and paranoia. It just so happens that at this point, the right is the side that is setting up the conspiracies and paranoia. Just as we'll all admit that the left did the same during Bush's presidency (especially the second term).

The crazy thing is that the Right's fear and paranoia was great, profound, and prolific even durng George W. Bush's reign. Remember how everything for the first six year's was Clinton's fault? Remember not supporting the troops or better yet undermining them? The enemy within? Remember, that if we voted for Kerry we would find mushroom clouds in our backyards? Heck, even the word "liberal" became a cuss word for a time. There has been a non-stop effort at cultivating fear and hatred at very high decibals for at least ten years.

So yes, the Left freaked out about the election insanity, but then united to help give Bush a 90% approval level. It was only because of misgivings about Iraq, frustrations over the handling of Katrina, and the mishandling of the economy that the left began to really rally against him. In other words, most rallied against Bush with cause. At the same time, the Right was furiously going after the Left because they were "anti-American" traitors if they would dare oppose the Right on any issues. It isn't cyclical on the Right. It is either constant or continually escalating.

[Bang]

Maybe a bit,but after dealing with schools and immunizations I could see the possibility of it happening with some bureaucrats....goes back to how much power they wield ....pettiness, inflexibility and control can lead some funny places

Then it would sound to me like the problem woiuld be on an individual level.

Unfortunately the propagandists don't make that distinction, because that distinction would not fit the agenda of demonizing the other side and making people fearful of all of them.

It's irresponsible at best, and well, we've all seen the worst of what happens when people scared by this crap decide to do something about it, like that guy in Pa who shot several cops because he was convinced the Obamanites were coming for his guns.

I notice that nothing will change. They'll keep doing it, and **** will keep happening, and people will line up and absolve everyone of any responsibility towards their neighbors again.

And nothing will change. They'll keep doing it, and **** will keep happening, and people will line up and absolve everyone of any responsibility towards their neighbors again.

And nothing will change. They'll keep doing it, and **** will keep happening, and people will line up and absolve everyone of any responsibility towards their neighbors again.

And nothing will change. They'll keep doing it, and **** will keep happening, and people will line up and absolve everyone of any responsibility towards their neighbors again.

Ah hell, I did this yesterday.

~Bang

[aREDSKIN]

Good article that puts the salient points in context & perspective

Mysterious black bag in hand, Jared Loughner ran into the desert, his angry father stopping pursuit in his truck.

Hours after Randy Loughner's futile confrontation with his 22-year-old son Saturday morning, six people were shot dead and more than a dozen others wounded -- and Jared Loughner was in custody.

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/loughner-s-father-chased-son-hours-tucso

[SnyderShrugged]

Good article that puts the salient points in context & perspective

Mysterious black bag in hand, Jared Loughner ran into the desert, his angry father stopping pursuit in his truck.

Hours after Randy Loughner's futile confrontation with his 22-year-old son Saturday morning, six people were shot dead and more than a dozen others wounded -- and Jared Loughner was in custody.

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/loughner-s-father-chased-son-hours-tucso

uh oh, thats a cns news article. It cant possibly be true.

[Burgold]

Something doesn't smell right about that article. If the father was so concerned that he chased him for a ways in his truck then why the heck didn't he call the police. If his son grabbed this bag and the bag meant something really bad to his father and then his son tore off in his car and Dad felt it necessary to go haring after him... well, then if you lose him or if you can't catch him you pick up the cell phone or you grab a phone and tell authorities so that they can be on the lookout for him and apprehend him... esp. if this is a guy who's been known to make death threats and was a bit off the deep end which the father was certainly aware of.

[SnyderShrugged]

Something doesn't smell right about that article. If the father was so concerned that he chased him for a ways in his truck then why the heck didn't he call the police. If his son grabbed this bag and the bag meant something really bad to his father and then his son tore off in his car and Dad felt it necessary to go haring after him... well, then if you lose him or if you can't catch him you pick up the cell phone or you grab a phone and tell authorities so that they can be on the lookout for him and apprehend him... esp. if this is a guy who's been known to make death threats and was a bit off the deep end which the father was certainly aware of.

see? that durned cnsnews at it again

[Burgold]

see? that durned cnsnews at it again

Don't you agree. Isn't there something odd to the layout of events as described. The article may be accurate, but if so there is some wonkiness going on. Some people who dropped the ball in a serious way (the parents perhaps?), (authorities who dismissed a concerned call?) There's a piece of the puzzle that just doesn't fit.

[twa]

Ah hell, I did this yesterday.

~Bang

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Just saying

[Burgold]

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Just saying

So, you''re in agreement with Bang then.

[SnyderShrugged]

Don't you agree. Isn't there something odd to the layout of events as described. The article may be accurate, but if so there is some wonkiness going on. Some people who dropped the ball in a serious way (the parents perhaps?), (authorities who dismissed a concerned call?) There's a piece of the puzzle that just doesn't fit.

while I'm sure there is more detail to be discoverd, I think the events make some sense. Put yourself in the Dad's shoes. His son has for years exhibited unusual behavior, he does it again and he shases him to find out whats up yet again.

He probably knew in his heart that it was escalating, but its likely he fell into a fear of crying wolf situation and held his tounge. Sadly, he now realizes he made a really, really bad call.

[Bang]

Don't you agree. Isn't there something odd to the layout of events as described. The article may be accurate, but if so there is some wonkiness going on. Some people who dropped the ball in a serious way (the parents perhaps?), (authorities who dismissed a concerned call?) There's a piece of the puzzle that just doesn't fit.

Not really. For a parent it's hard to accept that your kid may be in trouble, and even harder to call the cops on them.

That he'd go and do this probably didn't seem to be a reality to dad.

~Bang