Rank the Skins' head coaches over the last 25 years

[carex]

4 minutes ago, bakedtater1 said:

How does a coach with three super bowl wins not get the nod over a coach who hasn't won a playoff game?

 

cause we were asked to judge the coaches since Petibon, which means we're only judging Gibbs 2

[bakedtater1]

11 minutes ago, carex said:

 

cause we were asked to judge the coaches since Petibon, which means we're only judging Gibbs 2

Ahhh got it, thanks..

[hail2skins]

Not that this really factors in the rankings, but Gibbs is the one coach in the past 25 years here that had zero fear/chance of being fired.

[Renegade7]

2 hours ago, pjfootballer said:

I tried to start my list. Then I threw up in my mouth a bit. I can’t finish the list.

 

Exactly.

 

[TSO]

6 hours ago, bakedtater1 said:

How does a coach with three super bowl wins not get the nod over a coach who hasn't won a playoff game?

 

We’re judging the coaches from 92 and on. Gibbs first stint doesn’t count. Obviously he’d destroy every single coach on this list in that case (though he did have the advantage of having Beathard running personnel). But yeah, it’s not a contest then. 

 

*Edit* I see it’s been answered already, my bad.  

[TSO]

5 hours ago, hail2skins said:

Not that this really factors in the rankings, but Gibbs is the one coach in the past 25 years here that had zero fear/chance of being fired.

 

I think that’s a good point and should actually factor in. Having that confidence helps so long as your not exclusively deriving motivation from the fear of losing your job, which I doubt is the case with most coaches. 

[bakedtater1]

1 hour ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

We’re judging the coaches from 92 and on. Gibbs first stint doesn’t count. Obviously he’d destroy every single coach on this list in that case (though he did have the advantage of having Beathard running personnel). But yeah, it’s not a contest then. 

 

*Edit* I see it’s been answered already, my bad.  

All good..but thank you though..I swear one of these years I'll pay more attention to what the thread actually reads haha..as you noted it's already been answered and when it was I was all like ohh yaaa duuuhhhh lol

[bakedtater1]

Who here thinks Gibbs 2.0 would have continued coaching if S Taylor wouldn't have passed?..,I understand majority of the reason he wouldn't return was his grandson Taylor being diagnosed with cancer..any who I'll go Gibbs 2.0 than Gruden than shottenheimer..Gibbs 2.0 was closer than Gruden will ever be to taking this team back to the super bowl..in what two,three years Gibbs 2.0 won a playoff game..I'm not giving up on Gruden..this year we'll see!

[hail2skins]

44 minutes ago, bakedtater1 said:

Who here thinks Gibbs 2.0 would have continued coaching if S Taylor wouldn't have passed?..,I understand majority of the reason he wouldn't return was his grandson Taylor being diagnosed with cancer..any who I'll go Gibbs 2.0 than Gruden than shottenheimer..Gibbs 2.0 was closer than Gruden will ever be to taking this team back to the super bowl..in what two,three years Gibbs 2.0 won a playoff game..I'm not giving up on Gruden..this year we'll see!

Interesting question. I think age was probably the biggest factor in Gibbs deciding to step down. He was 64 when he came back and was probably trying to put in the same breakneck pace that he had when he stepped down in his early 50s. Also think he came back to win rings and was probably disappointed in the relative lack of success he was having the second go around.

 

If we had gotten by Seattle in the playoffs we would've played the Cowboys next, and a win against Dallas (which would've constituted a deep playoff run) might have prompted Gibbs to return for 2008, but think he would've stayed one more season max.

 

And yes, losing ST to a senseless murder did not help

[hail2skins]

With regard to Spurrier, I've wondered what he really thought about his time here and dealing with Vinny and Dan. Like I mentioned in another post, he had a book out a few years ago, but the only nugget I remember was that he expected that he was going to be working with Beathard (who refused to work with Marty).

 

Also wonder to what degree Spurrier knew that Dan wanted to get Gibbs back. Fassel, Rhodes, and Green were all publicly interviewed, but I've often wondered if Spurrier was somewhat encouraged to leave because Dan thought he was going to have a good shot at Joe.

[Skinsinparadise]

To me the more infamous list would be front office executives/defacto people in charge of personnel -- Casserly, Vinny/Dan combo, Schneider/Marty, Vinny/Dan/Gibbs, Just Vinny, Bruce/Shanny, Bruce, Bruce/Scot, Bruce.  Some good in that mix but most of it IMO "meh" and a much more infamous combination than the head coaches here. 

 

1. Gruden -- didn't love him in year 1 but grew on me.  Like his personality, perfect to deal with the chaos here, really good offensive mind

2. Gibbs -- if we add his first stint, he's no 1 but wasn't the same in rd 2 but still was a great leader then.  As usual, hired great D coordinator IMO

3. Marty -- old school grinder loved that he took the reigns from Vinny and inserted John Schneider

4. Shanny -- offensive genius - if only he would hire a good D coordinator and hire a personnel guy.  Loved him in his own lane.  Hated it outside his lane

5. Turner -- good offensive mind, just not a leader, the team was somewhat depressing for that reason, losing close games, etc

6. Petitbon -- sample size too small.  Obviously they stunk that one year.  But D coordinator genius in the 80s.

7. Zorn -- I never turned on a coach so hard so fast.  He struck me over his head.  But a classy guy, good person and I hated the manner as to how they ran him out of town even though I wanted it to go down.  Example to me of how you can do things with class versus not.  In that case, not. 

8. Spurrier.  Nice guy but over his head.  I put him last because for a coach he was lazy.  Probably he was a better coach than Zorn but Zorn didn't come off lazy.

[Koolblue13]

Jim Fassil was our worst HC. 

 

Kidding kinda. I've never felt lower or has less confidence as a fan, than I did when Zorn accidentally became our coach.

 

That was the worst point in our franchise. He has to be considered the worst, because he wasn't one. 

 

Having a HC with only one season here and not a winning one even,  speaks volumes about the redskins. 

 

This upcoming season is probably the most confident I've been on us making a real run. We're constantly mediocre instead of bad, so that's a nice change. 

[Darrell Green Fan]

15 hours ago, hail2skins said:

I'll try the exercise later, but off the top of my head think a ranking like this is tough because where people rank the respective coaches sometimes correlate to how soon they fell after the Gibbs 1 era.

 

For instance, Norv and Jay might be the closest comps, but Jay is probably given more slack due to being here after a 20 year period of crap while Norv came after the best 20 year run in franchise history.

 

Gibbs himself is tricky because no matter how people try, his first stint is always factored into the rankings, and he is either judged based on the high expectations from Gibbs 1 or given slack because of the accomplishments of Gibbs 1.

 

Shanny might be the most disappointing, due largely in part to his successful stint in Denver. I know he took over from the Zorn dumpster fire, but I personally expected more than 11-21 the first two years.

 

Zorn and Spurrier? Tough for me to like Spurrier mailing it in from the golf course....seems like Zorn's eff it came from management pressure. Does Spurrier's book from a couple years ago have any interesting nuggets on his Skins tenure.

 

Richie and Marty were only both here one year and it's tough to say how things would've turned out.

 

Totally agree on the Gibbs part, but sadly he is still at the top of the list despite a 30-34 record and 2 last place finishes in 4 years.  After writing that I am too depressed to continue ranking them.  

[zCommander]

16 hours ago, Califan007 said:

 

I'm at the airport actually traveling on business, and was just trying to rank them in my head...the last 5 or so just became a jumble of "jeebus" and I gave up lol...

 

Yeah I can see that happening in your head. So, never create a thread while at the airport for you then...lol j/k

 

Gibbs 2 would have been so great if he didn't go and get Al Saunders right after we lost that playoff game in 05. Gibbs was so close and by bringing in Al totally pissed me off since that meant starting the offense all over again with a new scheme. 

 

So for me I give the push to Gruden for the #1 spot and then Gibbs. Everyone else kinda goes somewhere in the spots below that. 

 

 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Regarding Gibbs...I still wish Snyder had hired him to run the organization, not the team. 

 

Those teams were as modestly successful as they were simply due to his leadership. He struggled several times with actual, in-game coaching. But we had a great chemistry and camaraderie that was mostly due to him. He's so uniquely gifted in leading organizations and people. 

 

Imagine if he had been put at the top of the organization and asked to hire a GM and head coach. I envision a professionally run organization with a competent personnel guy, someone like Gregg Williams coaching, and a team with that same chemistry/organizational unity moving forward. Gibbs also likely would have lasted longer in that position since it wouldn't have been so taxing on him. 

 

To me, that was one of the biggest "what ifs" over the past 25 years. Snyder came SO CLOSE to hitting a HR there. He ended up with a ground-rule double as it was...but was then picked off second base. 

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

7 hours ago, bakedtater1 said:

Who here thinks Gibbs 2.0 would have continued coaching if S Taylor wouldn't have passed?..,I understand majority of the reason he wouldn't return was his grandson Taylor being diagnosed with cancer..any who I'll go Gibbs 2.0 than Gruden than shottenheimer..Gibbs 2.0 was closer than Gruden will ever be to taking this team back to the super bowl..in what two,three years Gibbs 2.0 won a playoff game..I'm not giving up on Gruden..this year we'll see!

 

Not sure I agree with that.  Yes, we won the playoff game against the Bucs, but completely **** the bed against the Seahawks, even after knocking Shaun Alexander out of the game early 10 mins into the first quarter.  Winning that game and advancing to the NFC Championship is what I consider getting close to making it back to the Super Bowl.  

 

Gibbs 2.0 overall resulted in a 30-34 record versus Gruden's four year overall record of 28-35-1.  It's actually very comparable, but lets not forget that Gibbs had a better o-line, running back and defense.  In 2005, we were #9 overall on defense and #11 on offense.  And it was the defense that put us in position to win that wildcard game against TB.  LaVar picked off Simms and returned it to the TB 6 yard line, Portis runs it in.  Later on, forced fumble, recovered by Taylor and he scores a TD.  

 

Jay inherited a complete mess of a team.  Yet has managed to be in a decent position overall, imo.  Not taking anything away from Gibbs 2.0 or saying Jay is the next SB winning coach in DC.  But I don't think Gibbs 2.0 and Jay's first four seasons are that far apart.

[dyst]

Gibbs sucked when he was here, but he has been our best coach during this time simply because he at least led us to two playoffs, this is sad in of itself. As for Zorn, lordy that era was frustrating. He was brought in as offensive coordinator right? But they sold him as "we just saw something special in him that we had to hire him as our head coach" and as usual, some fans ate it up. Rest of us were like "yea wtf is this ****"

[ShaunAlexanderSkinsYears]

1. Mike Shannahan - By far best skins coach in the past 25 years, got railroaded by the usual suspects and blamed for RG3 debacle

2. Richie Petibon - Amazing football mind that was setup for failure by bad roster decisions from previous year

3. Norv Turner - Was not given enough time to make the team a contender, Snyder should have kept him

4. Jim Zorn - Snyder didn't give him a chance, he was turning the team around when he got canned

5. Marty Schottenheimer - Bad play calling caused us to miss playoffs that year, decent other than that

6. Joe Gibbs - mediocre coach at best, right place at the right time and was carried by talented players

7. Jay Gruden - extremely predictable play calling, ultimate .500 record coach 

8. Steve Spurrier - Could not harness the most talented roster during this time period

[Burgold]

Gibbs: Playoff runs in four years and a playoff year with a team built by Vinny Cerrato. No other coach can come close to that record.

Norv: He could coach a 7-1 team to an 8-8 finish or a 2-6 team to an 8-8 finish. Consistent Mediocrity puts him in second.

Gruden: Has taken a team from absolutely awful to competitive. Hasn't gotten a team to good yet.

Petibon: This is really an incomplete. Got one season with a past its prime roster and couldn't milk it.

Marty: Solid coach. Alienated everyone. Probably would have gotten us to be a one and done playoff team eventually.

Zorn: Over his head.

Shannahan: Except for RGIII's magical year, his teams were absolutely terrible and struggled to get five wins a season. Gave up on several games and gave up on a season. I probably should place him below Spurrier.

Spurrier. Didn't care. Didn't put the effort in. It showed.

 

 

[goskins10]

7 hours ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

Regarding Gibbs...I still wish Snyder had hired him to run the organization, not the team. 

 

Those teams were as modestly successful as they were simply due to his leadership. He struggled several times with actual, in-game coaching. But we had a great chemistry and camaraderie that was mostly due to him. He's so uniquely gifted in leading organizations and people. 

 

Imagine if he had been put at the top of the organization and asked to hire a GM and head coach. I envision a professionally run organization with a competent personnel guy, someone like Gregg Williams coaching, and a team with that same chemistry/organizational unity moving forward. Gibbs also likely would have lasted longer in that position since it wouldn't have been so taxing on him. 

 

To me, that was one of the biggest "what ifs" over the past 25 years. Snyder came SO CLOSE to hitting a HR there. He ended up with a ground-rule double as it was...but was then picked off second base. 

 

 

While I agree with you, he may not have wanted that job. Hard to tell. It felt to me like he wanted to coach again. He had been managing his race teams and I think wanted to get closer to action again. I have no insider information or any data to support this, just my gut feel. To your point, it would have been pretty interesting to see had that happened. 

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

@thesubmittedone and @Skinsinparadise I know how you two feel about Jay, but this is getting ridiculous. 

 

Here's what Gibbs II had to deal with:

1. He had Vinny.  Which was worse than Allen.  

2. He had to clean up after the Spurrier debacle.

3. He had the best player on his team literally murdered with 5 games to go in 2007

4. He (and some of this is his fault on the personnel side) had Brunnell, Ramsey, JC and Todd Collins at QB

 

And with all of that, in 4 years they went to the playoffs twice and won a road playoff game.

 

Gruden's best season in 2015 was 9-7, which was the lesser record of the two Gibbs II playoff seasons. Also, when Gibbs' teams had "win and get in" games, they won them.  Gruden's teams have not.  That's a pretty big differentiator.  .  

 

If we're just judging the head coaching and what they had to deal with, there's absolutely no question that Gibbs II is better than anybody else since Gibbs I, and it's really not even remotely close.  Heck, if Gibbs II had a QB like Cousins, they might have just won a SB.  Further, if Gibbs II was coaching the 2016 and 2017 Redskins, they probably get 1-2 more wins and make the playoffs, because even the second time around, he was a better coach than Gruden.  

 

And that's not a slight on Gruden in any way.  Gibbs might be the absolute best coach in the history of the NFL, including Bellichick, Lombardi, Parcells, you name it, in getting the most out of the team that he had.  He could take yours and beat his, or his and beat yours.  Maybe he lost 20% of that from the first stint, which STILL puts him above the vast, vast, vast majority of coaches.

 

It might surprise you to see my list:

 

1. Gibbs

2. Gruden (see, surprise! Given my reputation as a Gruden hater. I bet you thought he would be further down my list...

3. Marty - I still swear that if he wasn't fired, the team makes the playoffs (and then probably loses it's first game) at least the next 4-5 years. He also installed some discipline and toughness after the Norv years.  If there was one coach I would move up a notch it would be Marty.  He did have to deal with the Jeff George debacle, and at least try and make that work, which it didn't.  Hell, the dude got TONY FREAKING BANKS to win games.  That really says everything you need to know about Marty.  

4. Shanahan - He gets credit for coaching the team to a division title, figuring out an almost unstoppable offense in 2012.  

5. Norv - Made the playoffs and won a home game.  While he was basically a born loser as a HC, he also was saddled with the beginning of FA and a team that had to be completely rebuilt by the most overrated Redskin executive of all time, Charlie Casserly, then with Snyder and Vinny. He was at least competent. He's the last competent HC on this list.

6. Petibon - mostly because emotionally I can't put him below the embarrassments.  He is a Redskin Legend as a DC, and I wouldn't put him below..

7a. Spurrier - He just didn't care.  

7b. He was completely in over his head.  Which wasn't entirely his fault.  

[carex]

45 minutes ago, ShaunAlexanderSkinsYears said:

1. Mike Shannahan - By far best skins coach in the past 25 years, got railroaded by the usual suspects and blamed for RG3 debacle

2. Richie Petibon - Amazing football mind that was setup for failure by bad roster decisions from previous year

3. Norv Turner - Was not given enough time to make the team a contender, Snyder should have kept him

4. Jim Zorn - Snyder didn't give him a chance, he was turning the team around when he got canned

5. Marty Schottenheimer - Bad play calling caused us to miss playoffs that year, decent other than that

6. Joe Gibbs - mediocre coach at best, right place at the right time and was carried by talented players

7. Jay Gruden - extremely predictable play calling, ultimate .500 record coach 

8. Steve Spurrier - Could not harness the most talented roster during this time period

 

I just do not believe you are for real, cause while you might have some points with Petibon, Schottenheimer and Gruden's play calling, Turner was here seven years, Zorn was not fired in season so he had no time to turn the team around plus in his 32 games he started out 6-2 and finished 6-18, and Spurrier's roster is generally considered very low on talent

 

 

[Playaction2Sanders]

1. Gibbs- nuff said, his '04 team especially that defense was so much fun to watch..

2. Marty - That team played hard for him at the back end of the season, who knows how he would have done had he not gotten the hook.

3. Shanahan - Face it we had really no defense when he got here. Somehow won a division title with a rookie QB he didn't want. Some of his players are still contributing 5 years later..

4. Norv- Went from 3-13 to 9-7 in a couple years. The 10-6 team who knows if they make that FG vs TB and if Westbrook doesn't tear his ACL the following year..Team actually had SB aspirations

5. Gruden -  Doesn't run the ball. We're stuck in mediocrity like the Zorn era. Is there light at the end of the tunnel? 

6. Pettibon - INC. I'll give him slack because he was left with little talent on the offensive end, the team was crazy old and ready to rebuild.

7. Zorn - Couldn't hang with good teams and were stuck in mediocrity until the wheels fell off..

8. Spurrier - only time I ever considered jumping off the bandwagon witnessing his teams

 

[ShaunAlexanderSkinsYears]

2 minutes ago, carex said:

 

I just do not believe you are for real, cause while you might have some points with Petibon, Schottenheimer and Gruden's play calling, Turner was here seven years, Zorn was not fired in season so he had no time to turn the team around plus in his 32 games he started out 6-2 and finished 6-18, and Spurrier's roster is generally considered very low on talent

 

 

 

Fair points about Zorn, I honestly believe SOME players purposefully tanked the season though. Remember this?

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/13939970/clinton-portis-says-washington-redskins-became-divided-jim-zorn-religion

 

It's clear Zorn lost the locker room (which is an important part of being a coach). That being said I would be willing to put him below Schottenheimer and above Gibbs.

[Skinsinparadise]

13 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

@thesubmittedone and @Skinsinparadise I know how you two feel about Jay, but this is getting ridiculous. 

 

Here's what Gibbs II had to deal with:

1. He had Vinny.  Which was worse than Allen.  

2. He had to clean up after the Spurrier debacle.

3. He had the best player on his team literally murdered with 5 games to go in 2007

4. He (and some of this is his fault on the personnel side) had Brunnell, Ramsey, JC and Todd Collins at QB

 

And with all of that, in 4 years they went to the playoffs twice and won a road playoff game.

 

Gruden's best season in 2015 was 9-7, which was the lesser record of the two Gibbs II playoff seasons. Also, when Gibbs' teams had "win and get in" games, they won them.  Gruden's teams have not.  That's a pretty big differentiator.  .  

 

 

 

You are that fired up about this point and all you got going is transposing Gibbs and Jay as for who is #2 and who is #1.  That's not much of a difference. If you want to argue for Gibbs I got no issue with that.

 

Gibbs is my favorite Redskin of all time - love the dude.   He IMO was the best coach in the NFL in his first stint just edging out Bill Walsh.  In his 2nd stint, Joe was still the lovable, classy leader.  But as a play caller it seemed like the game passed him by.  He was no longer an innovator.  As for managing games -- he wasn't always hot in that whether its time management, sitting on leads, etc.  I was at the game when he called the double time outs versus Buffalo after Sean Taylor -- that move didn't seem out of place for Gibbs in his 2nd stint.  Ditto the sitting on the lead that led up to it.  I recall fans joking about it before it happened -- bring on the 4th quarter collapse, etc.

 

As for poor Gibbs being handcuffed with Vinny.  As much as I love Gibbs I put part of the Vinny problem squarely on Gibbs let alone grade him on a curve because of Vinny.  Gibbs would openly tout how he Vinny and Dan make decisions together and how great that works.  Gibbs was very much open about being totally on board with idea of trading picks for veterans.  His fingers prints were on some of those deals.  I used to call Redskins Lunch (radio show back then hosting by Larry-Bram) and Gibbs did call ins every week -- I talked to Gibbs multiple times.  In one call I go coach why do you keep trading picks for veterans.  And he doubled down on why.  He liked to talk about how veterans are known commodities. 

 

I am trying to recall the interview but Gibbs in one was gushing over Vinny -- talking about how organized and how prepared he is.   I don't enjoy impugning Gibbs.  Like I said I love Gibbs.  But not only don't I give him extra credit for dealing with Cerrato -- I find him complicit in their FO foibles.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2015/01/08/the-redskins-have-a-new-gm-vinny-cerrato-marked-the-occasion-by-telling-ridiculous-stories/?utm_term=.8e2736d824e9

On the Gibbs-Cerrato dynamic

“With Joe Gibbs, Joe had final say over everything, but I could give my opinion to Joe and Joe would listen,” Cerrato said. “And I ran all the meetings for personnel and everything. And then Joe and I and Dan would sit down and discuss the game plan for free agency, draft, the whole thing.”