Rank the Skins' head coaches over the last 25 years

[ShaunAlexanderSkinsYears]

10 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

To me the more infamous list would be front office executives/defacto people in charge of personnel -- Casserly, Vinny/Dan combo, Schneider/Marty, Vinny/Dan/Gibbs, Just Vinny, Bruce/Shanny, Bruce, Bruce/Scot, Bruce.  Some good in that mix but most of it IMO "meh" and a much more infamous combination than the head coaches here. 

 

1. Gruden -- didn't love him in year 1 but grew on me.  Like his personality, perfect to deal with the chaos here, really good offensive mind

2. Gibbs -- if we add his first stint, he's no 1 but wasn't the same in rd 2 but still was a great leader then.  As usual, hired great D coordinator IMO

3. Marty -- old school grinder loved that he took the reigns from Vinny and inserted John Schneider

4. Shanny -- offensive genius - if only he would hire a good D coordinator and hire a personnel guy.  Loved him in his own lane.  Hated it outside his lane

5. Turner -- good offensive mind, just not a leader, the team was somewhat depressing for that reason, losing close games, etc

6. Petitbon -- sample size too small.  Obviously they stunk that one year.  But D coordinator genius in the 80s.

7. Zorn -- I never turned on a coach so hard so fast.  He struck me over his head.  But a classy guy, good person and I hated the manner as to how they ran him out of town even though I wanted it to go down.  Example to me of how you can do things with class versus not.  In that case, not. 

8. Spurrier.  Nice guy but over his head.  I put him last because for a coach he was lazy.  Probably he was a better coach than Zorn but Zorn didn't come off lazy.

 

 

This is crazy. Jay is a perpetual .500 record coach and the most predictable play caller in the league. He gave up on and ran out the most exciting and talented QB we have ever had for a guy that clearly had no commitment to the organization. Literally the ONLY thing he has going for him is that he is the only coach in the post-curse Redskins era.

 

I agree with the Spurrier placement though  

[hail2skins]

56 minutes ago, Playaction2Sanders said:

1. Gibbs- nuff said, his '04 team especially that defense was so much fun to watch..

I hope you meant the '05 team.  The '04 D was very solid but that offense......yuck!  Even the O in the first two games of '05  was anemic, including the MNF Miracle, and I think fans were starting to wonder if Gibbs 2.0 was going to work out. But things seemed to start clicking after returning from an early bye.  I do think the 2005 season was probably overall the most fun of the 25 years this thread is concentrating on, beating out 1999 and 2012.

 

A lot of the replies to this thread are coming down to Gibbs vs Jay, two mediocre four-year runs (so far for Jay), and the tie breaker probably comes down to Gibbs hiring Gregg Williams as his D while Jay has had (gulp!) Jim Haslett, Joe Barry, and (who might turn out to be decent) Greg Manusky. 

[carex]

5 minutes ago, ShaunAlexanderSkinsYears said:

 

 

This is crazy. Jay is a perpetual .500 record coach and the most predictable play caller in the league. He gave up on and ran out the most exciting and talented QB we have ever had for a guy that clearly had no commitment to the organization. Literally the ONLY thing he has going for him is that he is the only coach in the post-curse Redskins era.

 

I agree with the Spurrier placement though  

 

didn't you call the RG3 situation a debacle earlier?  Much as I liked him, the guy ended up being physically fragile

[TSO]

@Voice_of_Reason very weird to come at us like that, calling it “ridiculous”, when I even specifically said I could be swayed either way as to who is 1 or 2, and then you finish it with ranking Gruden 2nd yourself? Come on, brother.   

 

Gibbs was Team President, so Vinny is on him to a degree. That’s the difference. Why did you fail to mention that? I’m not removing the control Gibbs had as coach here in comparison to the lack thereof Jay has like you did (which is something you often do in general when falsely conflating Jay’s role with Bruce here).

 

I think that’s unfair, and I made it a point to say that in my post. I even ended it with saying we didn’t get to see Gibbs with a better leader in personnel, but a big part of that is on him. 

 

So, yeah, if we’re going solely by coaching, is Gibbs 2.0 better? Maybe, there’s certainly a better argument to be had there, but we didn’t see much in the way of developing players under him versus what we’ve seen with Jay, which is why I lean towards Jay. Gibbs had an aggressive approach to personnel and had a team set up for him to win immediately, Jay never had. Vinny or not, they benefited in many ways from that aggressive approach. They lacked depth but they were top heavy. How you can just ignore that is beyond me. 

 

I specifically said I place more of an emphasis on teaching than scheme (or other aspects of coaching for that matter), and I feel like Jay has Gibbs beat there in his second stint. So comparing records (which are actually pretty close overall) doesn’t change that. I will give you the two playoff runs Gibbs had over Jay’s one, that was impressive. But there’s also context there that doesn’t sway me enough to make my ranking change. 

 

It’s an interesting discussion and it’s definitely not “ridiculous” as you claim. It’s too bad you immediately went there in what should’ve otherwise been a nice  debate. :/ 

[ShaunAlexanderSkinsYears]

2 minutes ago, carex said:

 

didn't you call the RG3 situation a debacle earlier?  Much as I liked him, the guy ended up being physically fragile

It was the definition of a debacle. Jay LET RG3 and his dad decide what kind of player RG3 wanted to be (a pocket passer which he and everyone else knew he was not capable of). Says a lot about Jays character (not a leader, mediocre to the core). 

 

Shannahan got railroaded because it did not fit Dan and Bruce's vision of their love child. So they canned Shannahan and hired a yes man. Shannahan knew how to utilize RG3 and had tremendous success but Jay allowed RG3, Bruce, Dan, and RG3's F'ing DAD dictate what kind of player he wanted to be. RG3 still thinks he a pocket passer to this day. Thanks Jay 

[CutPryorNow]

3 minutes ago, ShaunAlexanderSkinsYears said:

It was the definition of a debacle. Jay LET RG3 and his dad decide what kind of player RG3 wanted to be (a pocket passer which he and everyone else knew he was not capable of). Says a lot about Jays character (not a leader, mediocre to the core). 

 

Shannahan got railroaded because it did not fit Dan and Bruce's vision of their love child. So they canned Shannahan and hired a yes man. Shannahan knew how to utilize RG3 and had tremendous success but Jay allowed RG3, Bruce, Dan, and RG3's F'ing DAD dictate what kind of player he wanted to be. RG3 still thinks he a pocket passer to this day. Thanks Jay 

Are you seriously suggesting a modern day head coach in the NFL has mind control over their players effectively ruining their career? Jay G. prob handled that F'd up situation with RG3 better than most coaches would have. Seems like to me Gruden made a hard decision (leadership skills maybe) to name Cousins as the starting QB. BTW I am not a Cousins lover, but I do have eyes to see reality 

[ShaunAlexanderSkinsYears]

1 minute ago, CutPryorNow said:

Are you seriously suggesting a modern day head coach in the NFL has mind control over their players effectively ruining their career? Jay G. prob handled that F'd up situation with RG3 better than most coaches would have. Seems like to me Gruden made a hard decision (leadership skills maybe) to name Cousins as the starting QB. BTW I am not a Cousins lover, but I do have eyes to see reality 

I am suggesting this, but the point I am trying to make is that Jay acted as an enabler. Was Jay dull enough to believe RG3 possibly could develop into a pocket passer? I wouldn't put it past him. But the real reason is Jay knows he's not qualified to be an NFL head coach so when the opportunity presented itself (what NFL caliber coach would want to inherit that mess) he snatched it, probably because he was tired as being known as Jon Grudens Retarded Brother.  

[CutPryorNow]

16 minutes ago, ShaunAlexanderSkinsYears said:

I am suggesting this, but the point I am trying to make is that Jay acted as an enabler. Was Jay dull enough to believe RG3 possibly could develop into a pocket passer? I wouldn't put it past him. But the real reason is Jay knows he's not qualified to be an NFL head coach so when the opportunity presented itself (what NFL caliber coach would want to inherit that mess) he snatched it, probably because he was tired as being known as Jon Grudens Retarded Brother.  

We just have our facts perceived differently. IMO RG3 was the problem all along with Shanny and the rest of the organization contributing to the drama. Griffin was the drama queen and Gruden is actually really good at handling personality problems because he doesn't come off as the top swinging dick. It is well documented that RG3 wasn't equipped to deal with the modern NFL game and it was only a matter of time even without the ACL tear before his world would have come crashing down around him. K. Shannahan utilized his skill set in a really genius like way and we all rode the high from it. RG3's ego was the biggest problem not J. Gruden

[skinfan2k]

Gibbs 2.0 took two trash teams to the playoffs.  Literally with zero talent and he had Vinny to work with.  No one has been able to repeat that yet

[carex]

2 hours ago, ShaunAlexanderSkinsYears said:

It was the definition of a debacle. Jay LET RG3 and his dad decide what kind of player RG3 wanted to be (a pocket passer which he and everyone else knew he was not capable of). Says a lot about Jays character (not a leader, mediocre to the core). 

 

Shannahan got railroaded because it did not fit Dan and Bruce's vision of their love child. So they canned Shannahan and hired a yes man. Shannahan knew how to utilize RG3 and had tremendous success but Jay allowed RG3, Bruce, Dan, and RG3's F'ing DAD dictate what kind of player he wanted to be. RG3 still thinks he a pocket passer to this day. Thanks Jay 

 

Griffin only played in 9 games that year, going out early in one of them and rushed back from a leg injury.

[zCommander]

2 hours ago, skinfan2k said:

Gibbs 2.0 took two trash teams to the playoffs.  Literally with zero talent and he had Vinny to work with.  No one has been able to repeat that yet

 

Let's fire Bruce and hire Vinny back to see if it can be repeated. 

[Koolblue13]

21 hours ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

I envision a professionally run organization with a competent personnel guy, someone like Gregg Williams coaching

Double G was so professional that just a few years after we canned him the scumbag got suspended and cost his team their season and future, but sure, super HC candidate. 

[Wildbunny]

So ranking our HCs for the last 20 years or so turned onto an rg3 thread?

 

Impressive...

[TD_washingtonredskins]

15 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

 

While I agree with you, he may not have wanted that job. Hard to tell. It felt to me like he wanted to coach again. He had been managing his race teams and I think wanted to get closer to action again. I have no insider information or any data to support this, just my gut feel. To your point, it would have been pretty interesting to see had that happened. 

 

 

 

That's a great point. My fantasy is based on the assumption that he would have been interested in that role. To me, Gibbs seems more comfortable delegating. He is always quoted as trying not to take credit for play calls or the defense or whatever. Leading the team at an executive level would seem to be the ideal position for him, especially since he had already succeeded so greatly at the coaching level. 

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Double G was so professional that just a few years after we canned him the scumbag got suspended and cost his team their season and future, but sure, super HC candidate. 

 

Well, as of 2004 when Gibbs came in Williams was an up-and-coming candidate. Since he was hand-picked by Gibbs to be the DC, it's not crazy to think he may have been chosen to run the entire team. 

 

I'm not painting the perfect scenario, just the mostly likely alternate history that may have happened if Gibbs was given control of the franchise. 

[pjfootballer]

Still don’t know why Redskin fans drool over Gregg Williams. His track record as a head coach was pedestrian and he turned out to be a dirty coach. Never on my radar to take over after Gibbs.

[goskins10]

 

7 minutes ago, pjfootballer said:

Still don’t know why Redskin fans drool over Gregg Williams. His track record as a head coach was pedestrian and he turned out to be a dirty coach. Never on my radar to take over after Gibbs.

 

I could not agree more. I have to believe that if Joe had thought Gregg was the right guy, DS would have taken his advice. It also means that Joe had a hand in picking Zorn so that's a negative. I really like Jim as he seemed to be a really good guy. But the worst HC in history. I was there for the infamous swinging gate disaster. What an utter embarrassment - although I think that was really a parting shot at danny boy. Kind of middle finger on his way out. 

 

I really wish they had let him have a go at OC first. He may have developed. Even if not, I think he could have made a very good OC. 

[hail2skins]

Nobody knows how well Williams would've done as HC here, but the job he did as DC (except for 2006, where the whole team sucked) kept Gibbs 2.0 from being a complete flop. Especially 2004. That 6-10 season was bad enough, but without the performance of Gregg's D, it could've easily been 3-13.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

38 minutes ago, pjfootballer said:

Still don’t know why Redskin fans drool over Gregg Williams. His track record as a head coach was pedestrian and he turned out to be a dirty coach. Never on my radar to take over after Gibbs.

 

My post shouldn't be confused with "drooling over" Williams. I thought he was good as our DC while Gibbs coached here. I also was just painting what I think was the most likely scenario for 2004 if Gibbs came on as the President, not the coach. Obviously, a better scenario would have included an up-and-coming coach that turned into a stud. But I don't think that's realistic. I just think that hierarchy (Gibbs, a GM, a capable head coach) would have been better than what we had (Vinny and Gibbs). It also would have lasted longer and we'd have had a better shot of adjusting (with Gibbs and a GM) if Williams failed. 

 

7 minutes ago, hail2skins said:

Nobody knows how well Williams would've done as HC here, but the job he did as DC (except for 2006, where the whole team sucked) kept Gibbs 2.0 from being a complete flop. Especially 2004. That 6-10 season was bad enough, but without the performance of Gregg's D, it could've easily been 3-13.

 

I agree with this too. I'm not a huge Williams guy, but I do know that we wouldn't have sniffed 30-34 without his defense over those 4 years. The offense was adequate in 2005 and down the stretch in 2007 (probably 16 total games over those two seasons). But, we only won our won playoff game because the D either scored or set up 14 of our 17 points. 

[thebluefood]

On 6/20/2018 at 6:35 PM, hail2skins said:

Norv won a playoff game against the Lions.

I always forget about this. I was even listening to the game on the radio with my father and we were beside ourselves with joy but I still forget about that game.

The next playoff game against Tampa Bay, though...

 

On 6/20/2018 at 5:59 PM, Dissident2 said:

1. Gibbs (Two playoff appearances, one playoff win in four years. Whoop-dee-doo, but better than the guys that will follow)

2. Gruden (good offensive mind and not a complete lunatic) 

3. Marty (Tough to watch, but 0-5 to 8-8 is a good sign. See Gibbs I)

4. Petitbon (think he would've improved if given the opportunity. He gets the nod here for his defensive genius)

5. Shanahan (only here because of what he did with RG3)

6. Turner (will never forget when he got fired and a Cowboy fan wrote on a message board: "Norv, this is Jerry Jones. Operation Butt **** complete. Return to base.")

7. Spurrier (at least there were some laughs)

8. Robiskie (ya'll forgot him, didn't ya? "I'm goin' to Dallas.")

9. Zorn (kindly lunatic)

For the most part, this is my ranking (good call back with Robiskie - I forgot about him), though I'd probably put 7-8-9 as a three-man tie or switch Spurrier and Zorn. As awful as the Zorn years were, he kinda got pushed into the job while he was originally signing up for the OC position.

 

On 6/21/2018 at 9:44 AM, TD_washingtonredskins said:

Regarding Gibbs...I still wish Snyder had hired him to run the organization, not the team. 

 

Those teams were as modestly successful as they were simply due to his leadership. He struggled several times with actual, in-game coaching. But we had a great chemistry and camaraderie that was mostly due to him. He's so uniquely gifted in leading organizations and people. 

 

Imagine if he had been put at the top of the organization and asked to hire a GM and head coach. I envision a professionally run organization with a competent personnel guy, someone like Gregg Williams coaching, and a team with that same chemistry/organizational unity moving forward. Gibbs also likely would have lasted longer in that position since it wouldn't have been so taxing on him. 

 

To me, that was one of the biggest "what ifs" over the past 25 years. Snyder came SO CLOSE to hitting a HR there. He ended up with a ground-rule double as it was...but was then picked off second base. 

I never thought about this. Maybe age would have gotten in the way of this happen for a long period of time but this could have set a much stronger foundation for the organization for the next decade or so.

[carex]

6 hours ago, Wildbunny said:

So ranking our HCs for the last 20 years or so turned onto an rg3 thread?

 

Impressive...

 

no, it got a couple of mentions.  Players affect coaching so it makes perfect sense it would

[Dissident2]

3 hours ago, thebluefood said:

(good call back with Robiskie - I forgot about him),

 

LOL, I think everyone did. I think the Robiskie era deserves its own thread. We only lost to Dallas once in that era. We also only played Dallas once in that era. We also only played one game in that era. 

 

That era also featured the memorable "drag Jeff George like a rag doll while no one steps up to help him" moment, courtesy of Ebenezer Ekuban. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I saw Tandler mention that only 5 players from the Shanahan era remain on the team...just off the top of my head I can think of 4 players, drawing a serious blank on the 5th. (No, not gonna say which ones I remembered and, no, I'm not at the airport lol)...

[carex]

33 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

I saw Tandler mention that only 5 players from the Shanahan era remain on the team...just off the top of my head I can think of 4 players, drawing a serious blank on the 5th. (No, not gonna say which ones I remembered and, no, I'm not at the airport lol)...

 

Thompson, Reed, Trent Williams, Kerrigan and.... Sundberg

[zCommander]

10 hours ago, Califan007 said:

I saw Tandler mention that only 5 players from the Shanahan era remain on the team...just off the top of my head I can think of 4 players, drawing a serious blank on the 5th. (No, not gonna say which ones I remembered and, no, I'm not at the airport lol)...

 

[MEANDWARF]

1) Joe Gibbs

2-whatever