joeken24 Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 So the Redskins were 22nd in rushing last year and 20th the year before. The Redskins, like a lot of other teams, use the zone blocking scheme. So in essence, its not about the old "smash mouth" football we all came to love with the Hogs. Its more about the O-line being smarter and communicating who to block based on the direction the ball is moving. Who they block depends on the positioning of the defense. So, many times, what we're seeing is either a miscommunication, a missed assignment or the running back missing a read. The running back missing a read might be understandable if they lack good vision or if they're "hitting the play too fast". Think about it... An offense can run the exact same running play in a game yet the offensive line may block a different defender each of those times based on the defensive look. Its up to the RB to see that the read will be different. A young RB may need to progress if they come from a man blocking scheme where they are taught to "hit this hole only" over "reading the hole". I still think any running back worth anything would have the innate ability to see daylight. So seeing/reading the hole should be natural in my opinion. I don't necessary blame the RB for our issues. To me, what I'm seeing of late is poor technique and some embarrassing blow-ups at the line. Now I'll admit, I'd love to replace Shawn Lauvao at left guard. As a matter of fact, it would be epic if Trent moved inside with Ty Nsekhe at left tackle. I think all of our problems would disappear. But with all that said....here's the question: Should we start looking at coaching? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 Doesnt Callahan have a track record of early success followed by a gradual decline or some kind of **** storm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
campbellcooleyconnection Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 No I think it's mostly- Lauvao Blows, Long is meh & Moses & Scherff r solid but not spectacular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetThePointsSoar Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 I'm glad this thread was started, because I was curious about a lot of the same. I'm not an expert at all and typically rely on the actual game film experts that frequent the board...but to me, the o-line has looked pretty awful at times. This was one unit I thought we'd carry over consistency from last year. I know it's only preseason, so I hoping there isn't yet cause for real concern. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bantu Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 My understanding is that Callahan employed a variety of run blocking concepts in Dallas and has tried to do that here to some extent. If that is the case, they need to reset and simplify because there are missed assignments everywhere. And if I'm able to spot that, then it must really be bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Tomb Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 1 hour ago, campbellcooleyconnection said: No I think it's mostly- Lauvao Blows, Long is meh & Moses & Scherff r solid but not spectacular. Didn't get much of a chance to watch the second stringers, but how did Chase Roullier do? I think he might deserve time with the starters to light a fire under Long. Cuz he's getting blown off the line of scrimmage every play. I wouldn't be at all upset with moving TW to guard and having Nsekhe at LT. That's an interesting idea. Put Roullier at C and I think we have a nasty o-line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSO Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 I mentioned to @Spaceman Spiff yesterday at the game that they were running a lot of complex stuff. Had guards or tackles pulling to the opposite side of where the running back was initially going. I don't know if it was something they're just working on or what, but it certainly came off as needlessly complicated. There was even a 4th and short (or was it the 3rd and short?) where they had, I think, Long pulling yet the back went right up the middle. With all that said, I have no idea what the intent was. It just didn't look good at all. And any time Lauvao friggin pulled it was completely useless. He either didn't find anyone or just got stuck in traffic and generated zero push. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyst Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 It's pretty bad. These guys outside of Trent just might not be good. I think they are decent at pass protection but these are not the Hogs. Kirk makes them look better than they are. With that said they are good in pass protection. In terms of run blocking...awful. Our "mauler" Brandon gets pushed back a lot. I'll listen to what others say in that Long and Sean get pushed back too. I swear every time I look one of those 3 is on the floor like a dead fish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 3 hours ago, campbellcooleyconnection said: No I think it's mostly- Lauvao Blows, Long is meh & Moses & Scherff r solid but not spectacular. Pretty much...we still need a significant upgrade at LG and C...in the preseason game against the Ravens when Cousins got sacked, not only was long pushed backwards, he was pushed onto his ass. The defenders literally stepped over him on their way to sacking Cousins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted August 20, 2017 Share Posted August 20, 2017 1 hour ago, thesubmittedone said: I mentioned to @Spaceman Spiff yesterday at the game that they were running a lot of complex stuff. Had guards or tackles pulling to the opposite side of where the running back was initially going. I don't know if it was something they're just working on or what, but it certainly came off as needlessly complicated. There was even a 4th and short (or was it the 3rd and short?) where they had, I think, Long pulling yet the back went right up the middle. With all that said, I have no idea what the intent was. It just didn't look good at all. And any time Lauvao friggin pulled it was completely useless. He either didn't find anyone or just got stuck in traffic and generated zero push. Cooley took on Jay a little on this in a recent interview, suggesting something to the effect that he believes the better running teams don't have as many type of plays to master but instead focus on a certain style. Cooley thinks they have too much going on it seems. I noticed one of the talking head types parlaying off of Cooley's point saying that Shanny stressed mastering zone blocking and having his O line focused on primarily that. Playing devil's advocate, Callahan is considered one of the best. And he hasn't been working with high pedigree running backs at least in terms of draft value. Jones would be the highest and he was the tail end of the third round. Maybe Perine changes things. Judging by 2016 season PFF metrics the running game's weaknesses are Long and the tight ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Interesting words from Cooley. Maybe a guy like Trent is actually a better fit at zone than power, so Jay keeps a lot of the zone concepts (that he said he was going to keep on day 1) while implementing power. I think its safe to say we are hybrid, correct? Trent was selected over Okung in part because he was a better fit for zone. Trent is a lot of things, but he is not a plow the road guy, Shawn is a zone hold over, and again not a bull dozer. Yet Jay seems to run behind them an awful lot in short yardage. I think results are mixed at best. Offense can be very complicated, if the OC chooses it to be. I wonder if they need a big fat KISS. Keep it simple. Parcells used to take his playbook and cut out a large portion for games. It seems wise to me. I wonder how many different run plays Jay calls on game days. Another stat to track. Or, how many he makes them practice week to week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skins2victory Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 The running game is extremely frustrating. There is no reason these guys shouldn't be doing better. They supposedly have the best O-line coach. They have good continuity. Silverback is as good as it gets at LT. Gruden claims that Moses is a top RT in the game, thats why they paid him so well over the offseason. Brandon is a high first round draft pick, picked by the godly talent evaluator Scotty Mac. Long should be improving at center in year 2 now that he is more familiar with the line calls. Shawn is the weak link, but its pretty rare not to have at least one weak link on an O-line. Other teams do, and don't get pushed back ever play. We should at the very least be decent, and we are not. Its not like our guys are a small unit, there is decent size up front. When we line up to run it on short yardage, everyone knows we are gonna get knocked back. But, why?? I don't get it, something must need simplified. There is no excuse for the lack of push up front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diehard Otis Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Playing devil's advocate here, but is it possible that The Offense has been working on new concepts\wrinkles during the live game action? This is purely speculative, because none of the beat reporters raised any concerns during Training Camp. Further, there is no other logical explanation for these struggles. The Line may be relatively young but they're experienced. And Fat Rob (should be) accustomed to running behind them. Granted, it could simply be poor play: but while watching the game live the other night, I felt that The O looked outta sync. The best thing that happened in the ballgame--besides staying healthy--was that late Touchdown. I don't care that it was against backups; the fellas needed to experience some success. Now let's see if that gets the party started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 2 games- 13 runs for 13 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diehard Otis Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said: 2 games- 13 runs for 13 yards. Can't argue the facts blue. But I'm gonna be the sunny side up egg here. I would prefer The O to work through their kinks in an ugly, public fashion while still in the Preseason. This is necessary growth we're seeing. Is it pretty? Hell no! But it is necessary. My view has always been that it's the negative experience that is the best teacher. [SIGH] Looking for improvement against Cincinnati... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Diehard Otis said: Can't argue the facts blue. But I'm gonna be the sunny side up egg here. I would prefer The O to work through their kinks in an ugly, public fashion while still in the Preseason. This is necessary growth we're seeing. Is it pretty? Hell no! But it is necessary. My view has always been that it's the negative experience that is the best teacher. [SIGH] Looking for improvement against Cincinnati... They've done nothing to make me think it's a "getting it out of their system" problem and is just a problem instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diehard Otis Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 5 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said: They've done nothing to make me think it's a "getting it out of their system" problem and is just a problem instead. You've said nothing that I could possibly quibble with - I just choose to take an "Aww, it's Preseason. It doesn't matter" approach until Cincinnati comes to town. If we get 3 straight games of this, then I'll push the P button. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 59 minutes ago, Diehard Otis said: You've said nothing that I could possibly quibble with - I just choose to take an "Aww, it's Preseason. It doesn't matter" approach until Cincinnati comes to town. If we get 3 straight games of this, then I'll push the P button. I'm not going to panic at all. We were actually decent at running the ball last year, we just didn't do it enough and I think that'll change. At worst I think we'll be average, which is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diehard Otis Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Just now, Koolblue13 said: I'm not going to panic at all. We were actually decent at running the ball last year, we just didn't do it enough and I think that'll change. At worst I think we'll be average, which is fine. WE AGREE! That was my big problem with McVay - I felt like he got away from The Run Game waaay too early last year. Because I remember seeing The Ball move on the ground and then he'd call like 8 Passes in row, totally breaking The Offense's rhythm. I fully believe in Jay. He's called The Plays before (did he do it with the Bengals?) so we know he can. And it may be delusional, but I do believe it's an out-of-sync thing with some poor play mixed in. They'll get it right. I sincerely believe that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kleese Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 I put a lot more blame on the RBs than most of you do. I am NOT a fan of Fat Rob at all. I consider him to be a 2nd or 3rd string RB in the NFL. I believe he is a very poor excuse for a starter. He can be a decent back up or change of pace guy, but so far in this pre season I think he's making the OL look worse than the reverse. I have my fingers crossed for Perine; I think he is a far superior talent to Kelley and I'm hoping at some point he gets a look with the first team OL. Another thing to note in pre season so far is that Trent has been BAD. This is a career trend for him in pre season though. This OL is good. They are extremely good at pass protection-- while they may not be as good at run blocking, I think it's more likely they are adequate and not bad-- and that our struggles stem first from not having RBs that can take advantage. I don't think it's a 100% coincidence that Thompson averaged 5 yards per carry last year behind the same line. It's a smaller sample size for sure and sometimes as a third down back the D may be conceding more yardage, but overall the running game always looks better when he is in there. It's not a coincidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 It's tough for me to say we were a good run team when our lead back was getting yards through sheer toughness / break tackles. It's just too easy to point at yards per carry and say see, we need to do that more. I'll point at pass yards per attempt 8.11 to counter that. Take away our 3 big run plays and our average is 4.02. Take away Kelley's 1 big run and he was at 3.82. Thompson bumps us up being at 5.2 - presume a lot of running when showing pass FTW. Nothing against him at all, but when we used him in short yardage a few times.. yikes. While I love huge runs padding stats for the entire year, it's not always prudent to factor them in when doing projections. KISS usually wins. Use guys properly. We need to get our mobile guys moving, and let them do their thing. Don't go heavy jumbo trying to get a yard behind a guy that is suddenly facing a 341 pound end because we telegraphed our play. We are still very much a Mike Shanahan OL. It's OK to say Trent is not a short yardage mauler. He can hold his own sure but he has wheels and his elite mobility is why we drafted him. He is THE dream perfect fit LT for Shanny. I am sure we have some wrinkles in the run game planned. The last time I remember our run game consistently dominating was for about 4 games to start the year, 2 years ago. What I remember, was seeing Lauvao and Trent out in space at full speed demolishing guys. Lauvao got hurt, and we have sucked ever since. I cannot be the only one that remembers those 2 destroying LBs and DBs to start that year. Lets try something different, 3rd and 2, let's run behind Trent from spread/pass look with an all down back like Perine in the game. That's how I want to run more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjfootballer Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 No push. Lavoau is old. Long is weak. Teams have exploited the middle of our line since Shanahan took over. Knew they wouldn't make it on 4th and 1. Knew the would end up passing it on the goal line on 2nd and 3rd down. Our short yardage offense has been pitiful under Gruden. I'm with Kleese. I love Fat Rob, but he's slow to the hole. Perine is much quicker and stronger to the hole and breaks tackles at the line of scrimmage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OVCChairman Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 The other factor here is that we are not game-planning to take advantage of looks / matchups. We're calling a run play, and running it regardless of the front / look. I heard a stat that the first team has 10 1st down plays on Sat night and 7 of them, we ran the ball. Reed is not in there to decoy the LBs or a spy, and the passing game was vanilla at best. I'm not sayin things are all gum drops and rainbows (i do agree that lavoau just aint good enough) but I don't think we're as bad as we've looked... yet. Week 3 I may be singin a different tune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 I wonder if Perine will turn out to be the next Morris where he wasn't necessarily drafted to be the immediate starter at RB, but because he keeps performing better than any other RB on the roster, the coaches have no choice but to give him the spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diehard Otis Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 2 hours ago, kleese said: I put a lot more blame on the RBs than most of you do. I am NOT a fan of Fat Rob at all. I consider him to be a 2nd or 3rd string RB in the NFL. I believe he is a very poor excuse for a starter. He can be a decent back up or change of pace guy, but so far in this pre season I think he's making the OL look worse than the reverse. I have my fingers crossed for Perine; I think he is a far superior talent to Kelley and I'm hoping at some point he gets a look with the first team OL. Another thing to note in pre season so far is that Trent has been BAD. This is a career trend for him in pre season though. This OL is good. They are extremely good at pass protection-- while they may not be as good at run blocking, I think it's more likely they are adequate and not bad-- and that our struggles stem first from not having RBs that can take advantage. I don't think it's a 100% coincidence that Thompson averaged 5 yards per carry last year behind the same line. It's a smaller sample size for sure and sometimes as a third down back the D may be conceding more yardage, but overall the running game always looks better when he is in there. It's not a coincidence. Trophy goes to @kleese in this thread. The truth is the truth; Trent hasn't looked too good (this Preseason). You get props for calling it straight up. Also, @RandyHolt your points are definitely well taken too, my friend. For The Record, I'm sticking with the-squad-has-been-out-of-snyc-thus-far viewpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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