Skins Wingman Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 2 hours ago, crabbypatty said: So I'd like to see us run out of non conventional looks, and try to spread the defenses out a bit to help things. Our guys don't look like road graders, so maybe at least angle blocks will help if the backs can display some vision. This. Gruden and Scot are fooling themselves if they think our oline is just gonna punish teams. With our personnel, it just wont happen. It's time to get creative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsailand Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 A: Who cares? Our RBs are bad and our O-line is bad at run blocking. We have a $20M QB, and three pass catchers making $9M+ each. Time to have those guys earn their money, and stop wasting downs trying to run the ball. If Kirk's arm gets tired he can go rest in the hyperbaric chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playaction2Sanders Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 Call up TJ Ducketts agent?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hangman- C_Hanburger Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 I am wondering why the Skins don't have many pitch plays to help get outside? Am I wrong that all I see is QB hand to the RB gut? Maybe it's just vanilla preseason but I don't think there were many in 2015 thinking about it. Anybody else see this too? Seems it takes a long time for the RB's to just cut up and inside. Is Jones "slow /not decisive" in NFL terms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 24 minutes ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said: I am wondering why the Skins don't have many pitch plays to help get outside? Am I wrong that all I see is QB hand to the RB gut? Maybe it's just vanilla preseason but I don't think there were many in 2015 thinking about it. Anybody else see this too? Seems it takes a long time for the RB's to just cut up and inside. Is Jones "slow /not decisive" in NFL terms? Pretty much doomed to fail if your TE's and WR's can't block a lick. Outside of Garcon, that was us last year. So we didn't see much of that. Jones isn't slow, but not sure he has the burst to gear up going around the corner like that the way a lot of guys can. Thompson can, but again, the blocking on the outside might be problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanguard Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 2 hours ago, Tsailand said: A: Who cares? Our RBs are bad and our O-line is bad at run blocking. We have a $20M QB, and three pass catchers making $9M+ each. Time to have those guys earn their money, and stop wasting downs trying to run the ball. If Kirk's arm gets tired he can go rest in the hyperbaric chamber. You're joking right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 3 hours ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said: I am wondering why the Skins don't have many pitch plays to help get outside? Am I wrong that all I see is QB hand to the RB gut? Maybe it's just vanilla preseason but I don't think there were many in 2015 thinking about it. Anybody else see this too? Seems it takes a long time for the RB's to just cut up and inside. Is Jones "slow /not decisive" in NFL terms? The power toss and its variants are not base run plays in this offense. The base run play is a gut dive over the guard. You only saw our base run plays and a couple of draws we would hopefully bail from in the regular season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Blaster Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 18 hours ago, Darth Tater said: The power toss and its variants are not base run plays in this offense. The base run play is a gut dive over the guard. You only saw our base run plays and a couple of draws we would hopefully bail from in the regular season. To clarify, the base run play is not a dive but "doubles." It's the power-running variation of zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsailand Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 20 hours ago, Darth Tater said: The base run play is a gut dive over the guard. Yes, and we're awful at it. Have been for years. Time to find something that works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illone Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 The Skins are a passing team, make no mistake about it. But if you use the pass to setup the run, you still need to get at least 4 yards per carry to keep the defense honest. Otherwise they will just drop 8-9 guys and play coverage all day. Gotta sting em a little bit when you do run it. 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Our passing game is our strength and has got to be defended on every play. I doubt we're going to show any creative plays until Pittsburgh. I do expect a lot of RB screens, because you can sort of play action off of that too. Our personnel seems like it might be able to use 2 split HBs. That'd be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illone Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 i think the Skins should add more draws and delayed runs this year. Thompson had a huge run on a draw play last year.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 4 hours ago, Tsailand said: Yes, and we're awful at it. Have been for years. Time to find something that works. 1 year is years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 6 hours ago, Master Blaster said: To clarify, the base run play is not a dive but "doubles." It's the power-running variation of zone. Whatever you want to call it. Looks like what I would call a basic power dive. If we had a veer attack, I'd call it a FB dive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Blaster Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 2 hours ago, Darth Tater said: Whatever you want to call it. Looks like what I would call a basic power dive. If we had a veer attack, I'd call it a FB dive. And that's why it is difficult to discuss schemes on this site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 36 minutes ago, Master Blaster said: And that's why it is difficult to discuss schemes on this site. Not really. You just have to be prepared to explain what you mean. Not everyone is into the X's and O's but many are interested if it's explained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crabbypatty Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 16 hours ago, Koolblue13 said: Our passing game is our strength and has got to be defended on every play. I doubt we're going to show any creative plays until Pittsburgh. I do expect a lot of RB screens, because you can sort of play action off of that too. Our personnel seems like it might be able to use 2 split HBs. That'd be fun. The passing game is definitely the strength of this team, but I still get the feeling that teams don't respect the deep pass as much as we think they should. They know that gruden's system will by design take the first open guy to get positive yardage, and Cousins is good at doing that. The system doesn't seem to set up for many shots deep, if it's there, great. But if there's a guy opened short Cousins will get rid of it quickly to get the ball moving forward. I think teams are well aware of this and that's why they're always so crowded up around the LOS, especially when it comes to obvious run looks. It's kind of a double edged sword because the scheme design keeps the defenders in close, because of the take the open short design, vs. waiting, waiting waiting for the deeper routes to open up, and they are quick to crash down on the running game. I think more designed deep shots early in games will be key this year to helping open up the running game. If teams know you're gonna attack deep early and often, even if they're not completions they'd be less likely to play tight to the LOS. Teams know we will take the easy short, so they give it up by keeping everyone close, and crash on the run and short receptions big time, forcing those long 3rd downs or excessive pass attempts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justice98 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 17 hours ago, illone said: i think the Skins should add more draws and delayed runs this year. Thompson had a huge run on a draw play last year.. Off of one play? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 6 hours ago, crabbypatty said: The passing game is definitely the strength of this team, but I still get the feeling that teams don't respect the deep pass as much as we think they should. They know that gruden's system will by design take the first open guy to get positive yardage, and Cousins is good at doing that. The system doesn't seem to set up for many shots deep, if it's there, great. But if there's a guy opened short Cousins will get rid of it quickly to get the ball moving forward. There are deep shots built into our game planning. They are normally called off play action (Cousins was excellent last year off play action - he had a 158.3 passer rating on 1st down play action last season.) To make that work of course you need to have an at least credible running game that the defense has to respect. Then a lot of those deep shots are designed to go to DeSean Jackson. Defenses know that and tend to roll a safety over the top of him, which means they can only have 7 in the box. When teams do that you need to have the running game to make them pay and force them to bring that 8th man down. Which of course opens up your deep shots off play action. We dont need to be a top 10 running team. But we need to be good enough to force team to respect our willingness and ability to run so play action is effective and stop them being able to take away deep chunk plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airyx Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 Here is MY list of reasons why the running game hasn't performed well... 3 of the 5 starting O-Linemen have quick feet, quick hands, but lack power. This makes them good for zone blocking, but not so good a point of attack blocking. They just don't do a good job of getting under a defender's pads and moving him away from the hole. I don't see that improving without a change in talent (although Moses will probably come around). Until then, the play design will need to take this into account, and leverage more traps and zones. When zone blocking, the 5 starters don't have a good feel for each other just yet. I've seen guys slide-off a double team too early to go to the 2nd level and allow the first level guy to make the play. I've seen guys double the wrong guy, or double too long and miss a chance to get a 2nd level block. I'm not worried about this because it gets better over time. Jones is making good reads, but the O-Line isn't doing what he expects, so it is causing hesitation. Once the O-Line gels, Jones will be very good. I have no issues with Jones at the moment. He has the size, speed, and violence to be very productive. Kirk doesn't have the arm to threaten the boundary. His throwing motion and ball velocity allow lots of time for the D to react to a throw, so outside defenders can focus on containment and backside pursuit without risking much to the outside. I saw somebody else mention a general lack of pitches...this is why. There is no good lead blocker on the team. Without DYoung, there isn't anyone besides a pulling linemen to kick a gap-filling LB out of the hole. Not a disaster, but it again is a call for more traps. Ways to improve it... -Read/Option passes - QB and RB read an ILB. If he charges forward into a gap, the QB pulls the ball out and lobs it over his head to a WR running a slant or drag or a TE running a seam. If the ILB drops or sits, the RB keeps the ball. -Traps with Scherf and Silverback at the point of attack, and Louvaeo and Lich pulling...use a TE to stop a defender from following the pulling linemen into the hole. -Mis-direction...put TWO backs in the backfield, and establish a pattern of handing to either, on, and off fakes. Fake inside, pitch out. Fake a pitch out, hand inside. Fake OT right, hand OT left...that sort of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeverSurrender Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 Not sure if anyone has brought this up but I saw a lot of pulling action in the first two games of last year. I have not seen them do that much since then. Im somewhat hoping that the running game will have that look with counters/ power toss. With Vernon Davis and Niles Paul and Lavauo back I think we might have that look in the regular season but rest assured we will NOT see them do that in the preseason. As I'm sure they don't want to tip their hand. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Why am I Mr. Pink? Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 Hopefully our TEs stay healthy and we can see what Callahans no-FB running approach looks like. Last year was brutal sticking with a no FB approach and rotating guys like compton in. Running and stopping the run must improve this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 23 hours ago, MartinC said: There are deep shots built into our game planning. They are normally called off play action (Cousins was excellent last year off play action - he had a 158.3 passer rating on 1st down play action last season.) To make that work of course you need to have an at least credible running game that the defense has to respect. I have long argued that a team does not need a dominant run game to use play action. In fact, after arguing with someone here last year, next game, 1st play of the game, we went play action for a big play. My petty arguments aside, how do you (or others) explain his MONSTER passer rating on 1DPA, when our run game.... stunk for all but 2 weeks of the season? Who was buying our ****; maybe the Ryan dumbest defenses out there. Perhaps it was a small sample size. But maybe it reinforces my point, you don't have to actually run first, and succeed; you just have to make it look like you are going to run the ball, and it be in an obvious/traditional run down. That is more important IMHO, a great fake hand-off and sales job; some QBs are simply much better at it than others. Sure, a dominant run game can make PA more effective, but perhaps its largely because of the extra man forced into the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeverSurrender Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 Quote Kirk doesn't have the arm to threaten the boundary. His throwing motion and ball velocity allow lots of time for the D to react to a throw, so outside defenders can focus on containment and backside pursuit without risking much to the outside. I saw somebody else mention a general lack of pitches...this is why. At the 2012 combine one of Kirks Passes was clocked at 59 MPH. This is tied for second all time. I used to not believe he has the arm strength but after really watching him deliver precise passes over the middle last year and the combine performance I would say that he does have a very strong arm. Possibly top 5-10 in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 8 minutes ago, RandyHolt said: I have long argued that a team does not need a dominant run game to use play action. In fact, after arguing with someone here last year, next game, 1st play of the game, we went play action for a big play. My petty arguments aside, how do you (or others) explain his MONSTER passer rating on 1DPA, when our run game.... stunk for all but 2 weeks of the season? Who was buying our ****; maybe the Ryan dumbest defenses out there. Perhaps it was a small sample size. But maybe it reinforces my point, you don't have to actually run first, and succeed; you just have to make it look like you are going to run the ball, and it be in an obvious/traditional run down. You dont have to have a dominant run game to make play action work. But you have to have shown (over time) a commitment to running the ball to have the defense respect the run action. In 2015 we ran the ball 429 times which was equal 14th. We ran the ball almost the same frequency as the Eagles and at a higher rate than Dallas and the Giants. We were in a bracket with Green Bay, Denver and Atlanta. But we ranked 30th in yards per attempt. despite us being ineffective running the ball we showed a commitment to TRYING to run the ball. Teams had to respect that commitment and thats all you need to make play action work. As for play action on the first play of a game. Teams watch film, they have breakdowns of play calling tendencies based on formation, down and distance, game situation. If you have shown on film and in the stats you will run on 1st down then you can run play action in those situations. If the stats and your film though show you dont run the ball much you are going to have to find other ways to use disguise to create the 1 on 1 match ups and isolations you get from play action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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