If Asian Americans saw white Americans the way white Americans see black Americans

[SkinsHokieFan]

Anil Dash, an Indian American and co-founder of social media analytics company ThinkUp, put out a series of tweets challenging the thinking behind that trope. Asian Americans aren’t just model minorities, he argues.  Data show that they have surpassed white Americans in so many ways that Asian Americans could talk about white Americans as disparagingly as white Americans talk about the country’s black population.

 

 

 

Link for rest

 

http://qz.com/395207/if-asian-americans-saw-white-americans-the-way-white-americans-see-black-americans/

[The Evil Genius]

This belongs in the owned thread also.

 

[Destino]

White people are thugs and they have a tremendous tendency towards corruption.

This avenue of discussion does create a culture argument though, even if they tried to dodge it here:

Asian Americans don’t blame “white culture” for individual crimes among white people, Dash points out. So why do white Americans blame crime among black people on “black culture”?

But saying they don't "blame" it (or admit to it anyway) isn't enough. This definitely places culture, and the role culture plays, at center stage.

I have to ask, exactly why shouldn't we look at culture? Is the goal to improve ourselves and our society or to pat everyone on the head and tell them the way they are is just fine? Odds are good every culture has some things that serve their populations well and some things that perhaps aren't as advantageous.

[codeorama]

First, I'm sick of the word "thugs" automatically being a code word for black. Its not. I use the word thugs. I know people who use the word thugs and its not exclusive to black people. Its a criminal.  A goon, a hardcore wanna be.  That's a thug.  

 

Second, why do Asians (in general) surpass the other races including whites?  DISCIPLINE.

 

I can say with 100% conviction that lack of discipline is one of the biggest factors when it comes to the failure of parenting today.

 

Asian parents are generally more strict. They have higher expectations (again, I'm speaking in general terms based on my observations as a teacher).  They are HARDER WORKERS.  Many of the kids that I teach are lazy and their parents don't care.  Their parents are more worried about doing their own thing rather than raising their own kids. How do I know? Their kids tell me about their parents. I talk to their parents.  Its nuts.  My life is centered around being the best parent I can for my kid. Once he was born, my life took a back seat. My job in life is to do everything I can to help him be successful and have a better life than me.  So many of the kids I teach are an inconvenience to their parents. They  get in the way. That's how the kids often feel.

 

Saddest thing ever:  I coach softball.  Less than half of the parents even come out to watch their kids play.  Every day, I have to wait for them to find rides.  I cannot imagine my son being left without even knowing how he's going to get home.

 

The downward slide....

 

And for the record. I'm a single parent. I have raised my son on my own since he was 2.

[balki1867]

I don't think there's anything wrong at looking at the culture per se, but in practice those comparisons only happen in one direction, and people tend to draw far too many conclusions out of that.

 

I'll give you guys an example:  There have been dozens of school shootings over the past ~20 years and as far as I know, the VT one was the only one where the shooter was non-white.  In the other incidents people generally agreed that it's tough to draw general conclusions on what are really extreme outlier incidents.  Yet with the VT shooter, a good portion of the population went straight to his race/culture-- "Had he shamed his family? His sister went to Princeton and he went VaTech.  That must've been incredibly difficult in a culture where the son is supposed to be more successful than the daughter. Maybe the pressure of being the black sheep finally got to him."  

 

Just to be clear-- I don't think people are racist. We as humans generally try to find an explanation for what are extreme situations. My only point is that when the shooter was Asian, his culture was on the table as a part of that explanation.  When the guy is white, nobody sits there and thinks, "Man I wonder how his white upbringing might've contributed to this."

 

I think I'd get a good laugh if someone did a news story on what "white culture" needs to do to fix its problems surrounding sports-related riots, embezzlement and DUIs (those are all crimes predominantly committed by white people).

[tshile]

I have to ask, exactly why shouldn't we look at culture? Is the goal to improve ourselves and our society or to pat everyone on the head and tell them the way they are is just fine? Odds are good every culture has some things that serve their populations well and some things that perhaps aren't as advantageous.

 

I think we should, but when you do the people that belong to the culture get very defensive as it puts the onus for improving things on them and many people can't handle that.

 

just think of your job... how do people take it when they have responsibility for something negative put on them, especially in front of others? in my experience, not very well. finger pointing and spreading out blame seems to be the usual response. i think it's important to take responsibility for yourself, and try to as often as possible, so i can't help but notice that it seems like the majority don't.

 

another issue is how we define the culture. defining "white" or "black" culture seems ignorant to me. it puts the boundaries around race, which seems super ignorant to me. economic status seems like a significantly more meaningful boundary, as well as geography.

 

black/white people in inner cities are not the same as black/white people in suburban areas, and definitely aren't the same as black/whites in the country.

 

i can't wait for the day people stop seeing issues as race, and start seeing the other categorizations. i can't help but wonder what a black person, living in the suburbs, who has an education, works hard, provides for his/her family, and has made their life decisions around (among other things) living in areas with quality public schools for their kids, thinks every time these types of discussions come up and people refer to the "problems of black culture"

 

i imagine it's frustrating, angering, racist, and ignorant, but I'm not that person so i'm not really sure.

[endzone_dave]

 

Asian parents are generally more strict. They have higher expectations (again, I'm speaking in general terms based on my observations as a teacher).  They are HARDER WORKERS.  Many of the kids that I teach are lazy and their parents don't care.  Their parents are more worried about doing their own thing rather than raising their own kids. How do I know? Their kids tell me about their parents. I talk to their parents.  Its nuts.  My life is centered around being the best parent I can for my kid. Once he was born, my life took a back seat. My job in life is to do everything I can to help him be successful and have a better life than me.  So many of the kids I teach are an inconvenience to their parents. They  get in the way. That's how the kids often feel.

 

 

 

Do you know what you never hear, Asian Americans complaining that you can't make a living on minimum wage. Their kids are studying, playing an instrument, playing chess, programing computers, learning robotics, being artistic...  Our kids are playing video games and playing sports.  Asian Americans have the formula figured out and they're executing it. 

 

Like you said, it's all about discipline. 

[The 12th Commandment]

Discipline is a fine thing, but lack of discipline (by way of thinking outside the box) combined with a dog eat dog system is what makes our society produce more big advances than others seem to do.  Messy with a lot of gray area but undeniably effective.  Necessity is the mother of invention.  Salary men in Japan have a lot of discipline but outside of forwarding the cause of their company little of their intellect has an impact. 

 

 I realize that's kind of a simplistic take on it.  Also a major cost in the lives of many who don't have discipline or intellect.  That's why I believe that a minimum existence has to be provided.

[NoCalMike]

We might not use "thugs" exclusively for black folks but the media seems to do it especially Fox and even CNN now, and it seems like it is being used as a dog-whistle because they are catering to a specific demographic of people the older grump white crowd that knows they can't say another word any longer so if they use "thug" instead, everything is kosher.

 

I am interested to see if the mostly white rioters that spring up after a major sporting events or even something like the World Bank/WTO events are referred to as "thugs" by the same pundits or is it more looked at like "Well these people take the game a little too seriously *eye roll*......moving on to Benghazi now"

[CrypticVillain]

I don't know how to feel about this. I honestly don't...

[Destino]

I should have clarified. When I say "we should look at culture" I meant experts that know what they are talking about. Not we as in random people on a football message board operating on stereotypes and projected politics.

As far as I know the key to Asian success is leaving Asia and stronger Kung Fu (though not stronger than mine). That's not terribly helpful. What I'd like to see is experts pursue this avenue at their level, then have them locked in a room and argue about which traits they found are better and why. The one that emerges victorious can educate the rest of us (probably through advocacy groups that can slap a friendlier face on the "you know that thing you do? Stop that, do this instead" message.

Also, culture is not as simple as race. It exists in pockets of race, location, and wealth. I know this is America and race is everything always but not this time. Sorry, I know that change can be scary.

[mcsluggo]

.....

 

Second, why do Asians (in general) surpass the other races including whites?  DISCIPLINE.

 

....

 

a big proportion of the correct answer to this is "self selection bias".   

 

a larger percentage of Asian americans are relatively recent immigrants.  It is hard to resettle your life, and move from Asia to the US, the people that do so are really motivated disciplined people as a group.   If you looked at first/second generation Finns or Swedes or Ghanaian .. then you would see a group that (as a group) outperform the general population.  Both the general population here AND the general population of the place they left behind.   Noise can get thrown on this equation sometimes (like when the immigration is hit by a big event, like a civil war, or the channel of immigration is relatively easy (**relatively!!!**) like it is from Mexico to the US) but in general expats/diaspora are by definition highly motivated. 

[tshile]

the correct answer to this is "self selection bias".   

 

a larger percentage of Asian americans are relatively recent immigrants.  It is hard to resettle your life, and move from Asia to the US, the people that do so are really motivated disciplined people as a group.   If you looked at first/second generation Finns or Swedes or Ghanaian .. then you would see a group that (as a group) outperform the general population.  Both the general population here AND the general population of the place they left behind.   Noise can get thrown on this equation sometimes (like when the immigration is hit by a big event, like a civil war, or the channel of immigration is relatively easy (**relatively!!!**) like it is from Mexico to the US) but in general expats/diaspora are by definition highly motivated. 

 

studies are showing second/third generations of asian immigrants are regressing to the mean in our country.

 

interestingly enough, some studies are showing certain countries (from asia and africa) don't seem to have that problem with later generations. in fact they are currently significantly disproportionately represented in the elite schools, the numbers are pretty staggering (though I can't remember them well enough to even give the ballpark of them right now)

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Do you know what you never hear, Asian Americans complaining that you can't make a living on minimum wage. Their kids are studying, playing an instrument, playing chess, programing computers, learning robotics, being artistic...  Our kids are playing video games and playing sports.  Asian Americans have the formula figured out and they're executing it. 

 

Like you said, it's all about discipline. 

 

While we are engaging in widespread cultural stereotypes, let me be the first to state that the cliched Asian parenting style people are promoting here is completely insane. It turns school into a 7 day a week, 18-hour a day job. If anyone did anything to that extent, they would succeed at it. They would also become a total basket case.

a big proportion of the correct answer to this is "self selection bias".   

 

a larger percentage of Asian americans are relatively recent immigrants.  It is hard to resettle your life, and move from Asia to the US, the people that do so are really motivated disciplined people as a group.   If you looked at first/second generation Finns or Swedes or Ghanaian .. then you would see a group that (as a group) outperform the general population.  Both the general population here AND the general population of the place they left behind.   Noise can get thrown on this equation sometimes (like when the immigration is hit by a big event, like a civil war, or the channel of immigration is relatively easy (**relatively!!!**) like it is from Mexico to the US) but in general expats/diaspora are by definition highly motivated. 

 

 

a big proportion of the correct answer to this is "self selection bias".   

 

a larger percentage of Asian americans are relatively recent immigrants.  It is hard to resettle your life, and move from Asia to the US, the people that do so are really motivated disciplined people as a group.   If you looked at first/second generation Finns or Swedes or Ghanaian .. then you would see a group that (as a group) outperform the general population.  Both the general population here AND the general population of the place they left behind.   Noise can get thrown on this equation sometimes (like when the immigration is hit by a big event, like a civil war, or the channel of immigration is relatively easy (**relatively!!!**) like it is from Mexico to the US) but in general expats/diaspora are by definition highly motivated. 

 

I think you see that in all European immgrant groups. 10 million Italians came to the US at the turn of the century. 5 million of those went back. The ones that stayed were almost certainly the best equipped to stay for any number of factors. That leads to rapid assimilation and success.

 

Something I've thought about on occassion: what part of the success of Irish immigrants has to do with the sheer physical strength the ones who survived the famine and the journey to America had?

[tshile]

. If anyone did anything to that extent, they would succeed at it.

 

I believe that is the point

[zoony]

Asians do school very, very well. It fits their culture. Defined roles, discipline, do what your master says at all times without question, and work nonstop to get results. Do not shame your family and do not think creatively. Play instruments that were popular 300 years ago in Europe

This culture makes it easy for dictators to slaughter millions every other year in Asia and keep the masses in line. Thankfully we live in a free country so the Asians that come here do very well in our schools, without all the beheadings and executions and labor camps. A definite win win.

[balki1867]

I should have clarified. When I say "we should look at culture" I meant experts that know what they are talking about. Not we as in random people on a football message board operating on stereotypes and projected politics.

As far as I know the key to Asian success is leaving Asia and stronger Kung Fu (though not stronger than mine). That's not terribly helpful. What I'd like to see is experts pursue this avenue at their level, then have them locked in a room and argue about which traits they found are better and why. The one that emerges victorious can educate the rest of us (probably through advocacy groups that can slap a friendlier face on the "you know that thing you do? Stop that, do this instead" message.

Also, culture is not as simple as race. It exists in pockets of race, location, and wealth. I know this is America and race is everything always but not this time. Sorry, I know that change can be scary.

 

Who are these experts to which you're referring?  And what insightful conclusions would you expect them to come to?

 

As a minority, I fully understand that race and culture aren't perfectly aligned, but despite that, the only time the word "culture" comes up in these conversations its when we're talking about minorities.  Nobody brings up "culture" when a bunch of frat kids at Kentucky overturn cop cars after their basketball team choked.

[No Excuses]

Asian parents stress the importance of STEM careers to their kids. STEM careers are probably what one of the few avenues left for people to be middle class, upper middle class or even higher. So Asians do well. And the stereotype that Asian parents are some kind of dictator-like monsters for school work is so laughably false. Education is stressed heavily in Asian families. Some of the parents take it a step further. Most parents are pretty mild, but they make it a priority. 

 

Asians, especially from India, don't always come here with great jobs in hand. But they get by on what they can afford and a lot of first generation Indian parents allowed their kids to live the "American Dream". I think there is something to be learned from it culture wise because many of these immigrants faced the same socioeconomic problems that a lot of other people in this country face but are trapped in cycles of generational poverty.

[Rocky21]

Zoony that is harsh. Interesting points about first generation immigrants assimilating and second and third generations regressing toward the mean.

Hopefully Jumbo won't ban me for this but the thing about the VT shooting is it seems (at least to me) that that dude's culture was a big part of the story.

There is a stigma in the Asian American community that stops families from seeking counseling and therapy. Cho's parents might not have fully understood what was wrong with him and that their son needed help. For example his mother sought out members of a local Korean church to purge the "demonic power" that possessed him. He doesn’t speak English for nearly half his life and his parents don’t speak the language of the people of the country he lives in. You don’t think that could exacerbate feelings of isolationism? He didn't have a job in college, which helps with social interaction, probably because of the parent's focus on academics. He was about to graduate and may have had apprehensions about joining the workforce. jes sayin.

[mcsluggo]

back to the OP: the whole point of view seems to rest on a basic premise that Asian-Americans are less inclined to be racist (towards black Americans) than white-Americans are.......  to be blunt, I don't think that this is true 

[codeorama]

back to the OP: the whole point of view seems to rest on a basic premise that Asian-Americans are less inclined to be racist (towards black Americans) than white-Americans are.......  to be blunt, I don't think that this is true 

 

I don't think this is true either.  

[Jumbo]

<edit>

Hopefully Jumbo won't ban me for this but the thing about the VT shooting is it seems (at least to me) that that dude's culture was a big part of the story.

<edit>

 

 

Why did you put that in there?

 

(if it was a joke, then I'm just being dense cuz I miss the connection---and I'm just being curious here)

[balki1867]

Hopefully Jumbo won't ban me for this but the thing about the VT shooting is it seems (at least to me) that that dude's culture was a big part of the story.

There is a stigma in the Asian American community that stops families from seeking counseling and therapy. Cho's parents might not have fully understood what was wrong with him and that their son needed help. For example his mother sought out members of a local Korean church to purge the "demonic power" that possessed him. He doesn’t speak English for nearly half his life and his parents don’t speak the language of the people of the country he lives in. You don’t think that could exacerbate feelings of isolationism? He didn't have a job in college, which helps with social interaction, probably because of the parent's focus on academics. He was about to graduate and may have had apprehensions about joining the workforce. jes sayin.

 

I actually agree with you on that point, but most of the media reports didn't even touch that element of the story-- they focused more on the "how much shame did he bring to the family? that's why he did it" aspect of it.  Beyond that, the stigma around mental health issues is worse in Asian communities but we, as Americans, are generally horrible about that to begin with. I don't know that he would've gotten the treatment he needed were he white. The Sandy Hook shooter had some major well-documented mental health issues, but his mother was also a survivalist type who insisted on keeping guns within easy access, yet it was seldom mentioned that this woman was so into her "culture" that she gave easy access to guns to a mentally unstable person.

 

As far as the other stuff-- that also describes a lot of kids who didn't mow down their classmates. And  that's precisely the point I'm trying to make.  Dozens of white kids mow down their classmates yet they speak english and some even have jobs.  Thousands of asian kids are isolated from their classmates because of language issues, and they don't mow down their classmates.  But yet the one time an asian kid mows down his classmates, people got straight to the "culture."  I'm agreeing with you that it might've been a contributing factor, but the amount of media attention that got was disproportionate to its causality to the incident.

[Xameil]

back to the OP: the whole point of view seems to rest on a basic premise that Asian-Americans are less inclined to be racist (towards black Americans) than white-Americans are....... to be blunt, I don't think that this is true

Yeah...don't think this is true at all

[Destino]

back to the OP: the whole point of view seems to rest on a basic premise that Asian-Americans are less inclined to be racist (towards black Americans) than white-Americans are.......  to be blunt, I don't think that this is true 

 

Yeah I admit, that thought ran through my head as well but I didn't want to bring it up.