2024 Rookie camp/OTA/Training camp thread.

[Skinsinparadise]

I get a bit tagged by some as a Jamin Davis guy because I liked him on the draft thread, which i did, but a major distinction on that point was he wasn't the dude i wanted with that first round pick, I saw him as a 2nd rounder. 

 

Having said that, I recall commenting back then, that he flashes when he blitzed, he didn't blitz much but when he did he was quick and elusive.  Not really having pass rushing moves but he was good at finding a crease and taking off.

 

He was raw back then who flashed good range in open field.  His issue was his instincts-recognition skills, he was a beat slow on that front -- and it alas looks like that issue has remained a problem with him in the pros.

 

But I do think he can add to this defense if used right.  One of the things i love about Quinn is he comes off obsessed with finding these players superpowers and exploiting that versus hoping the player fits to scheme.  Ron-Del Rio did Jamin's development a diservice by starting him at Mike as a rookie and I am gathering his confidence never recovered.

 

From what i hear he's at his best when he has a MLB type directing him and that's where Wagner thrives.  

Edited May 24 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, MartinC said:

I listened to the Pod as well - slight correction on the above, the balls hitting the ground reference was to the year before last when it was Wentz and Heinicke. They were missing passes against air never mind 7 on 7’s. I remember this time last year him making the same reference and saying less balls were hitting the ground with Howell throwing than had been the case previously.
 

He did reference Daniels throwing with anticipation and the ball coming out on time versus last year with Howell when he would sometimes be unsure where to go and sit patting the ball a bit. 

 

OK thanks for that catch, missed that distinction.  As to Howell, I do know Keim said he wasn't as decisive as Daniels was in practice -- not sure which podcast he made that point but it was a recent one where he talked about Howell would pat the ball to buy another second to make a decision and Daniels doesn't do that.

 

As to Howell, no doubt Bieiniemy was a train wreck as to his development.    Malpractice.  I stll think he can be a servicable starting QB or worse case high end backup.  I get why Peters traded him and the market for him was what it was.   I do think Seattle likely got a good deal.  My gut is Howell isn't ever going to be a top 10 type but I can see him in the 16-22 range.   Will see. 

[Going Commando]

I think Quinn and Whitt are going to move Luvu and Jamin around and rush them a ton like they did with Parsons in Dallas.  There were times when Parsons lined up as a three technique with his hand in the dirt on passing downs.  I would not rule out Jamin playing from a three point stance occasionally, and I would not rule out him playing as a rusher from every gap.  They're going to put a lot on his and Luvu's plate to see if they can handle the unpredictable match up hunting they did with Parsons.  Working Jamin out with the edges is a clear indication that they're trying him out in the Parsons role to me.  And I also don't see this staff being too concerned with his court cases, given that Dan Quinn was such a big mentor to a real pain in the ass in Parsons.  He's good at working with difficult talent, and Jamin strikes me as low maintenance.  He's going to get an honest shot to find a home in our new scheme, and I think his potential is really high now.

 

When watching Dallas's defense from 2023, a big takeaway is how often they were in two and three down linemen fronts on first down and passing downs.  They're pretty amorphous.  If Newton and Mathis are healthy, they're going to be moving around a lot, and they are definitely going to be playing with Allen and Payne.  We're not going to be pigeonholing our DLs into specific techniques.  There are also going to be a lot of plays where Armstrong plays from a 2 pt stance.

 

I think it's interesting that both Armstrong and Newton were special teams standouts with multiple blocked kicks in their highlights.  That feels like a point of emphasis for our linemen now.  Two things I expect to see next year are much more dominant special teams, and much more dominant pass defense.  The "scheme pressure" should be off the charts, and we're not just going to sit back and rely on vanilla four man fronts to generate wins.  We're going to rotate every single member of our front except Wagner, and there is going to be a fresh group of legs rushing the passer every down.  It's going to be an assault on opposing OLs, with no easy downs where they can relax as new faces line up in front of them constantly.  But the weakness of that Dallas defense was stopping the run--they weren't much better than our terrible run defense last season.  Hopefully Quinn and Whitt do a better job with the run D here.  There is reason to hope we can be stronger up the middle than Dallas was because our IDL rotation is excellent and we signed Wagner and Chinn.

[skinny21]

18 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

If they saw absolutely anything at all in Davis, they wouldn't have brought in all the LBers and Edge guys that they did.

Yeah, they’re definitely not sold on him considering the acquisitions and not picking up his 5th year option… but I’m not so sure that equates to not seeing “absolutely anything at all in [him]”…

 

Man, they came out firing in terms of addressing the position.  Wagner, Luvu, a proven STer (and depth) in Pittman, and then a succession plan in Magee.  Very refreshing.  Davis’ usage/future is going to be very interesting…

[moondog]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I get a bit tagged by some as a Jamin Davis guy because I liked him on the draft thread, which i did, but a major distinction on that point was he wasn't the dude i wanted with that first round pick, I saw him as a 2nd rounder. 

 

Having said that, I recall commenting back then, that he flashes when he blitzed, he didn't blitz much but when he did he was quick and elusive.  Not really having pass rushing moves but he was good at finding a crease and taking off.

 

He was raw back then who flashed good range in open field.  His issue was his instincts-recognition skills, he was a beat slow on that front -- and it alas looks like that issue has remained a problem with him in the pros.

 

But I do think he can add to this defense if used right.  One of the things i love about Quinn is he comes off obsessed with finding these players superpowers and exploiting that versus hoping the player fits to scheme.  Ron-Del Rio did Jamin's development a diservice by starting him at Mike as a rookie and I am gathering his confidence never recovered.

 

From what i hear he's at his best when he has a MLB type directing him and that's where Wagner thrives.  

I’m not shocked, per se, by the totally negative crowd or the folks talking about cutting/trading Forbes and Davis. Admittedly I tend to generalize that crowd a bit as folks that don’t obsess with all the team-oriented podcasts and reading all the tea leaves. 
 

I get it, Forbes played very poorly overall last year. I think he was put in a bad spot (covering AJ Brown all game as an example) schematically. I also think he comes off as pretty intelligent and hard working…while that may seem counterintuitive, considering they kept talking about wanting him to do what they asked, I can imagine a world where he shut down (similar to Jahan) because he was being coached by a high school secondary coach and a poor defensive scheme. And probably just said screw it I’m going to do what made me successful in college…and that didn’t go well. 
 

As for Jamin, he clearly hasn’t played to his potential or draft status. But he has shown improvement. I also generally think our defensive scheme was essentially no plan, just let the four guys up front do whatever they thought would work on any given play, even changing their plan just before the snap and forcing the LBers to just react off of them rather than playing downhill and aggressive off the snap based on a scheme plan and fit. 
 

It is easy to see how folks can look at a simple report of Forbes returning punts or Davis taking pass rush snaps as a demotion and a sign of something negative. I just view it differently. 
 

This entire FO and coaching staff talks about finding what players do well and putting them in position to maximize that. Forbes showed great return instincts with the ball in his hands in college. It makes sense they would experiment with that. They have clearly targeted great athletes across the board and Davis may be one of the best athletes on the team. He’s best moving forward and has shown some pass rush juice so why not take advantage of that in a scheme that historically has generated pressure by moving folks around and scheming pressure rather than just asking guys to win one-on-ones?

 

Forbes showed in college he can be a guy similar to Diggs/Bland in Dallas. I think they would be more than happy if he occasionally gets burned a few times a game if he’s one of the top secondary guys that can generate turnovers in their scheme and I expect that. 
 

Rather than replace Jamin with Wagner and Luvu, I think they’ve surrounded him with guys that can help him develop and let him do what he does best with less responsibility and playing downhill on the outside. 
 

Certainly, if either of these guys doesn’t show this year they can take advantage of that they’re likely very expendable next year. But I think they both have the best chance at maximizing themselves in this defense, this year as they have in their careers and I don’t see any chance they’re on the block this season. DQ emphasizes the teaching ability of his staff and I’m excited to see what they can bring out of both of these guys. If it doesn’t work, fine, but give them a chance and root for them with an actual NFL quality coaching staff to see if they can get closer to the potential that made them great prospects. 

[Going Commando]

4 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Yeah, they’re definitely not sold on him considering the acquisitions and not picking up his 5th year option… but I’m not so sure that equates to not seeing “absolutely anything at all in [him]”…

 

Man, they came out firing in terms of addressing the position.  Wagner, Luvu, a proven STer (and depth) in Pittman, and then a succession plan in Magee.  Very refreshing.  Davis’ usage/future is going to be very interesting…

 

With two LBs on one year deals, Magee could be the succession plan for either Davis or Wagner.  He seems versatile enough to play either role.  I think there are a couple of scenarios where Jamin doesn't end up on the roster next year.  Either he struggles to find a home in the new scheme, or he plays so well that his market becomes too rich for us.  But I also think there is a scenario where he's a fish in water with this new scheme, and plays well and earns an extension here.  In that outcome, we'd be looking at Magee as the successor to Wagner.

 

I don't think we're going to get a lot of time with Wagner.  I think he's going to be super impactful for us next season, but that he's going to move on or retire pretty soon after.  It could be that Magee is our succession plan at middle linebacker even if Jamin moves on next year.

[MrJL]

14 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Yeah, they’re definitely not sold on him considering the acquisitions and not picking up his 5th year option… but I’m not so sure that equates to not seeing “absolutely anything at all in [him]”…

 

Man, they came out firing in terms of addressing the position.  Wagner, Luvu, a proven STer (and depth) in Pittman, and then a succession plan in Magee.  Very refreshing.  Davis’ usage/future is going to be very interesting…

 

we did only have two viable LB last year and one of them was on a one year deal

[PlayAction]

12 minutes ago, moondog said:

I’m not shocked, per se, by the totally negative crowd or the folks talking about cutting/trading Forbes and Davis. Admittedly I tend to generalize that crowd a bit as folks that don’t obsess with all the team-oriented podcasts and reading all the tea leaves. 

 

It's great not to stress about these decisions anymore.  I'm confident that the team will make the right decisions for the long-term success of the franchise.  

 

I don't think that Forbes fits the long-term vision for the "physical and violent" style of play.  But, it would be great if he can play well at CB so that the team can get some value out of him.    

[Chump Bailey]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Having said that, I recall commenting back then, that he flashes when he blitzed, he didn't blitz much but when he did he was quick and elusive.  Not really having pass rushing moves but he was good at finding a crease and taking off.

 

 

We could have gotten that from Ivan Pace Jr and for a lot cheaper 🙂 I was not high on him for his physical limitations, which proved to be overblown but it was obvious he could get downhill as well as anyone.

Edited May 24 by Chump Bailey

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

 

With two LBs on one year deals, Magee could be the succession plan for either Davis or Wagner.  He seems versatile enough to play either role.  I think there are a couple of scenarios where Jamin doesn't end up on the roster next year.  Either he struggles to find a home in the new scheme, or he plays so well that his market becomes too rich for us.  But I also think there is a scenario where he's a fish in water with this new scheme, and plays well and earns an extension here.  In that outcome, we'd be looking at Magee as the successor to Wagner.

 

I don't think we're going to get a lot of time with Wagner.  I think he's going to be super impactful for us next season, but that he's going to move on or retire pretty soon after.  It could be that Magee is our succession plan at middle linebacker even if Jamin moves on next year.

Yeah, tend to agree with all of this.  My guess as of now is that Davis will be gone - obviously if he doesn’t play well, but also if he does, he may wanna test FA, especially since he’s probably looking at a reduced role here this year (of course they could offer him an expanded role for the future).  

I could see a situation where we re-sign Wagner - plus level play, his tone-setting/leadership, Magee might not be ready yet, etc.  I too lean to it being much more likely he’s gone next year though.

 

Big picture, they’ve seemingly done a really nice job setting themselves up with options going forward at the LB position.

[Warhead36]

You don't cut guys on rookie contracts unless they're just a complete negative presence(like Haskins). You keep em around and try to salvage em until their rookie deals expire.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, Going Commando said:

I think Quinn and Whitt are going to move Luvu and Jamin around and rush them a ton like they did with Parsons in Dallas.  There were times when Parsons lined up as a three technique with his hand in the dirt on passing downs.  I would not rule out Jamin playing from a three point stance occasionally, and I would not rule out him playing as a rusher from every gap.  They're going to put a lot on his and Luvu's plate to see if they can handle the unpredictable match up hunting they did with Parsons.  Working Jamin out with the edges is a clear indication that they're trying him out in the Parsons role to me.  And I also don't see this staff being too concerned with his court cases, given that Dan Quinn was such a big mentor to a real pain in the ass in Parsons.  He's good at working with difficult talent, and Jamin strikes me as low maintenance.  He's going to get an honest shot to find a home in our new scheme, and I think his potential is really high now.

 

When watching Dallas's defense from 2023, a big takeaway is how often they were in two and three down linemen fronts on first down and passing downs.  They're pretty amorphous.  If Newton and Mathis are healthy, they're going to be moving around a lot, and they are definitely going to be playing with Allen and Payne.  We're not going to be pigeonholing our DLs into specific techniques.  There are also going to be a lot of plays where Armstrong plays from a 2 pt stance.

 

I think it's interesting that both Armstrong and Newton were special teams standouts with multiple blocked kicks in their highlights.  That feels like a point of emphasis for our linemen now.  Two things I expect to see next year are much more dominant special teams, and much more dominant pass defense.  The "scheme pressure" should be off the charts, and we're not just going to sit back and rely on vanilla four man fronts to generate wins.  We're going to rotate every single member of our front except Wagner, and there is going to be a fresh group of legs rushing the passer every down.  It's going to be an assault on opposing OLs, with no easy downs where they can relax as new faces line up in front of them constantly.  But the weakness of that Dallas defense was stopping the run--they weren't much better than our terrible run defense last season.  Hopefully Quinn and Whitt do a better job with the run D here.  There is reason to hope we can be stronger up the middle than Dallas was because our IDL rotation is excellent and we signed Wagner and Chinn.

 

Stunts, blitzes -- creating havoc, setting up mismatches.  Parsons moved around -- 7, 5, 3, 1, etc.

 

And we are loaded with good blitzers:  Luvu (probably the best of the lot), Jamin, Macgee, Wagner (he's not bad at it too).  Chinn, Quan, Sainstrill.

 

Payne and Allen should be better because of the stunting and will be rotated more so they should be fresher.

 

Keim who is far from a flame thrower type has said multiple times he can't stress enough how this defensive coaching staff >>> the previous one.

Edited May 24 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

We signed 20 free agents. I don't think having guys on one year deals is a huge deal. Especially if we're good this year. There will be plenty of LBers available next year and Luvu and McGee will have a year together.

20 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

You don't cut guys on rookie contracts unless they're just a complete negative presence(like Haskins). You keep em around and try to salvage em until their rookie deals expire.

If you have 5 slots and the guy on the last year of his rookie deal is LBer6 you do.

20 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

You don't cut guys on rookie contracts unless they're just a complete negative presence(like Haskins). You keep em around and try to salvage em until their rookie deals expire.

If you have 5 slots and the guy on the last year of his rookie deal is LBer6 you do.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Chump Bailey said:

 

We could have gotten that from Ivan Pace Jr and for a lot cheaper 🙂 I was not high on him for his physical limitations, which proved to be overblown but it was obvious he could get downhill as well as anyone.

 

The sad thing about Pace is we could have had him for nothing.

 

Among the things that haven't aged well for me about the last regime is the lack of urgency and that includes not shooting high with UDFA.  Don't get me wrong i think Dan has a lot to do with it but the more I absorbed narratives over time -- the less I give Ron an out.  As I've said in other posts, IMHO we've had bad GMs but Ron was the worst of the lot.  That's saying much coming from me who would beat up Bruce for years but I think even Bruce was better than Ron in the FO.  

Edited May 24 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, moondog said:

 

I get it, Forbes played very poorly overall last year. I think he was put in a bad spot (covering AJ Brown all game as an example) schematically. I also think he comes off as pretty intelligent and hard working…while that may seem counterintuitive, considering they kept talking about wanting him to do what they asked, I can imagine a world where he shut down (similar to Jahan) because he was being coached by a high school secondary coach and a poor defensive scheme. And probably just said screw it I’m going to do what made me successful in college…and that didn’t go well. 

 

For me as for Forbes.  He's not the dude I wanted at that pick.  But I try to give everyone some leeway after they are drafted.  Heck I even did it for Haskins (RIP) intitially even though I hated the pick in real time.

 

1 season is too quick for me to rule a player out.

 

I'll say though Keim tends to be very reserved in his criticism.  Yet he's made clear as a bell that the feeling is (assuming its people here now) that Forbes issues last year weren't mostly about being poorly coached.  But instead about playing with bad technique, getting beat too routinely by double moves.  Paulsen and I think Keim also (if I recall) referenced that this regime likes physicality with their CBs and Forbes doesn't fit that.

 

Recalling one narrative about Forbes after he was drafted that didn't seem to carry to his rookie year was the idea that although he's skinny he plays bigger than his size as to tackling in the run game, etc.  I recall some in that building felt he indeed played to his size in a bad way last year in the run game.

 

But in short, considering Keim is very quick to say its not about the coaching primaily with Forbes last year -- while also on another note slamming the coaching overall compared to the current regime stands out.  I think the last rodeo of this from him was the Junkies started defending Forbes and putting it on the coaches and Keim quickly interjected and said Forbes' issues run deeper than the coaches, and suggested that wasn't the main issue with his struggles last year.

 

Combine all of that with Keim hinted to expect Forbes likely to be a backup at the start of the season...

 

It all feels like someone from the current staff told Keim, Forbes has issues to fix, and they didn't put his poor play on the last coaching staff.  Having said that, the dude is young, I am giving him another season before writing him off.

 

 

Edited May 24 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, moondog said:

 

It is easy to see how folks can look at a simple report of Forbes returning punts or Davis taking pass rush snaps as a demotion and a sign of something negative. I just view it differently. 
 

This entire FO and coaching staff talks about finding what players do well and putting them in position to maximize that. Forbes showed great return instincts with the ball in his hands in college. It makes sense they would experiment with that. They have clearly targeted great athletes across the board and Davis may be one of the best athletes on the team. He’s best moving forward and has shown some pass rush juice so why not take advantage of that in a scheme that historically has generated pressure by moving folks around and scheming pressure rather than just asking guys to win one-on-ones?

 

Forbes showed in college he can be a guy similar to Diggs/Bland in Dallas. I think they would be more than happy if he occasionally gets burned a few times a game if he’s one of the top secondary guys that can generate turnovers in their scheme and I expect that. 
 

Rather than replace Jamin with Wagner and Luvu, I think they’ve surrounded him with guys that can help him develop and let him do what he does best with less responsibility and playing downhill on the outside. 
 

Certainly, if either of these guys doesn’t show this year they can take advantage of that they’re likely very expendable next year. But I think they both have the best chance at maximizing themselves in this defense, this year as they have in their careers and I don’t see any chance they’re on the block this season. DQ emphasizes the teaching ability of his staff and I’m excited to see what they can bring out of both of these guys. If it doesn’t work, fine, but give them a chance and root for them with an actual NFL quality coaching staff to see if they can get closer to the potential that made them great prospects. 

 

Don't know what to make of Forbes returning punts.  Definitiely a demotion if its a full time thing.  You starting corner isn't also your punt returner.  But a starting corner can be an occasional punt returner.

 

As to Jamin, he had a bad rookie year.  But he played decently the last two years.  If he were a 2nd round player, just like where I thought (among others who also did) he belonged in that draft, it would have been seen as a solid pick.  But if you are taking a LB in the middle of the first, you are hoping for a stud.  He's not a stud but he's not a bust and at a minimum he's a decent player IMO.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[dyst]

I never got on the Jamin bandwagon; maybe he will improve next year but I’ll say it again - whenever you describe a guy as having potential that just means he ain’t good. Jamin has a lot of “potential”. 

[KDawg]

7 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The sad thing about Pace is we could have had him for nothing.

 

Among the things that haven't aged well for me about the last regime is the lack of urgency and that includes not shooting high with UDFA.  Don't get me wrong i think Dan has a lot to do with it but the more I absorbed narratives over time -- the less I give Ron an out.  As I've said in other posts, IMHO we've had bad GMs but Ron was the worst of the lot.  That's saying much coming from me who would beat up Bruce for years but I think even Bruce was better than Ron in the FO.  

We could have used a seventh rounder on a top 2 rated LB in the draft class (for me, anyways). And not only did we not do that… then we didn’t sign him and we went with Cody Barton and Jamin Davis. Mind numbing.

[RVAskins]

I don't think any head coach should be GM. GM is a full time job if you do it the right way a head coach spreads himself too thin being a GM. Also, a head coach is thinking short term so he can keep his job. A good GM is in it for the long haul. That's exactly what AP is doing.

 

 

 

Edited May 25 by RVAskins

[CommanderInTheRye]

 

Dan Quinn radiates positive energy.

 

If he wasn't a head coach he'd make one hell of a salesman, politician, ceo, or just about whatever endeavor he decided to direct his full focused intention and mind mentality towards manifesting.

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited May 25 by CommanderInTheRye

[DiscoBob]

On 5/24/2024 at 8:18 AM, Skinsinparadise said:

I get a bit tagged by some as a Jamin Davis guy because I liked him on the draft thread

 

Bro.... we all know you actually are Jamin Davis

 

Thoughts on your conversations with Dan Quinn during OTAs?

[Voice_of_Reason]

On 5/24/2024 at 7:15 PM, KDawg said:

We could have used a seventh rounder on a top 2 rated LB in the draft class (for me, anyways). And not only did we not do that… then we didn’t sign him and we went with Cody Barton and Jamin Davis. Mind numbing.

Well, look on the bright side: they didn’t bring back Jon “wrong way” Bostic.

 

Which, you know Ron REALLY wanted to do…

[KDawg]

18 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Well, look on the bright side: they didn’t bring back Jon “wrong way” Bostic.

 

Which, you know Ron REALLY wanted to do…

Bostic would have been an upgrade to Barton.

[DWinzit]

39 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Bostic would have been an upgrade to Barton.

Horrendous to read this yet might very well be true. Barton was younger and a little faster but had less leadership skills and instincts. His added youth/speed was lost as he was always late to the play because he couldn't see it or feel it until after it began. Johnny come lately if you will.

 

I will never understand how in the full off season JDR, RR and defensive staff came up with Barton as an upgrade. And an upgrade to the point of, why draft a LB?....even if there is one that does everything we need sitting there round after round