Hamas Attacks Against Israel

[Fergasun]

I watched about half of the October 7 documentary, produced by Al Jazeera.  I fully understand AJ is state funded media by Qatar and likely more sympathetic to Hamas.  But, it's a very well organized picture of what happened.  It is violent and used Hamas body cams (explicit stuff is blurred).  I do know that what caught my attention were media articles talking about claims that Israel kllled their own civilians.  Of the 700+ civilians killed, I think it was about 5% or so killed by Israeli response. 

 

Israel just killed aid workers provided from a famous chef's kitchen.  Unfortunately, they don't have any credibility in my mind.  Too many instances of targeting journalists and medics.  Maybe it is not official policy, maybe it's like rogue cops.  I think the death tolls of their previous conflicts were 25% Hamas fighters, and 75% civilians. 

 

 

[PleaseBlitz]

This is pretty ****ed up. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/04/01/world-central-kitchen-gaza-deaths-wck/

 

Israeli strike kills 7 World Central Kitchen workers, group halts aid

 

Quote

World Central Kitchen said Tuesday that it was immediately halting its operations in Gaza after seven of its workers were killed in an Israeli strike, threatening already precarious deliveries to the besieged enclave.

 

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu confirmed that Israel carried out the strike but said it was “unintentional” and that Israel would investigate.

...

WCK CEO Erin Gore described the strike on the convoy as a “targeted attack” by the Israel Defense Forces and “unforgivable.” The food aid nonprofit has sent more than 1,700 trucks of assistance into Gaza as well as sea deliveries from Cyprus.

It said it had coordinated its activities with Israeli authorities. The team was traveling in a “deconflicted zone” in vehicles that included two armored cars branded with the WCK logo.

 

“Despite coordinating movements with the [Israel Defense Forces], the convoy was hit as it was leaving the Deir al-Balah warehouse, where the team had unloaded more than 100 tons of humanitarian food aid brought to Gaza on the maritime route,” the group said.

The strike is believed to be the first to kill foreigners working for an international aid organization in Gaza since the start of the war on Oct. 7, though a record number of Palestinians employed by the United Nations have been killed in the conflict. It sent shock waves through the humanitarian aid community, causing at least two other groups providing aid to pause their operations at a time when Gaza is on the brink of famine.

“This is not an isolated incident,” said United Nations humanitarian coordinator James McGoldrick, citing the killing of at least 196 humanitarians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza since October. “This is nearly three times the death toll recorded in any single conflict in a year,” he said, adding that the United Nations would continue aid deliveries.

 

[Larry]

1 hour ago, Fergasun said:

Israel just killed aid workers provided from a famous chef's kitchen.  Unfortunately, they don't have any credibility in my mind.  Too many instances of targeting journalists and medics.  Maybe it is not official policy, maybe it's like rogue cops.  I think the death tolls of their previous conflicts were 25% Hamas fighters, and 75% civilians. 

 

Just saying, I have absolutely no problem at all believing the reports of Hamas and similar groups doing things like using ambulances to deliver weapons, and similar "human shield" operations.  

 

I'm not even sure I fault them, given their circumstances.  

 

Just saying that I also believe in cutting Israel some slack when some good guy gets killed.  

[Cooked Crack]

 

[Renegade7]

53 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Just saying, I have absolutely no problem at all believing the reports of Hamas and similar groups doing things like using ambulances to deliver weapons, and similar "human shield" operations.  

 

I'm not even sure I fault them, given their circumstances.  

 

Just saying that I also believe in cutting Israel some slack when some good guy gets killed.  

 

Don't folks get tired of cutting them slack?

 

Saying what a terrorist organization is doing on one hand isn't keeping convo honest in that Israel is supposed to not be a terrorist organization.

 

The reports are World Central Kitchen worked out logistics with Israel for this move to avoid getting bombed and got bombed anyway in clearly marked vehicles after jus dropping some food off.

 

Netanyahu Says Israel ‘Deeply Regrets’ Strike That Killed 7 Aid Workers https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/04/02/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news?smid=nytcore-android-share&ugrp=c&pvid=2624d8b2-5561-45d1-9275-73a440aca5bf

 

This can't go away as another "my bad, war be like that sometimes" because now this organization is pulling out when they were there to address the famine concerns. 

 

So they leave, then what?

 

 

Edited April 2 by Renegade7

[Cooked Crack]

 

 

[The Sisko]

2 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Don't folks get tired of cutting them slack?

 

Saying what a terrorist organization is doing on one hand isn't keeping convo honest in that Israel is supposed to not be a terrorist organization.

 

The reports are World Central Kitchen worked out logistics with Israel for this move to avoid getting bombed and got bombed anyway in clearly marked vehicles after jus dropping some food off.

 

Netanyahu Says Israel ‘Deeply Regrets’ Strike That Killed 7 Aid Workers https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/04/02/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news?smid=nytcore-android-share&ugrp=c&pvid=2624d8b2-5561-45d1-9275-73a440aca5bf

 

This can't go away as another "my bad, war be like that sometimes" because now this organization is pulling out when they were there to address the famine concerns. 

 

So they leave, then what?

They're war criminals and I don't buy the whole, "Oops" routine. This is a pattern of behavior for them. Journalists, aid workers, ambulances, etc. make arrangements with the Israeli military, then come under fire. I've threatened it for a while now, but I've reached a point where I'm seriously considering not voting for Genocide Joe this fall. I'm not voting for the Orange Putin Puppet but I'm starting to think that after backing these kinds of war crimes by Israel for decades, albeit usually lower levels of destruction, the US deserves whatever Tr卐mp 2.0 brings.

 

On another note, after destroying an Iranian embassy, it would be interesting to see what would happen if Iran fired some missiles/drones and destroyed an Israeli embassy somewhere, as they'd be well within their rights to do. However, I'm sure the Israeli attack is being considered a surgical military strike while the identical behavior from Iran would be called terrorism.

 

**Edit: Yeah, hilarious TTB. Perhaps I'll vote for Tr卐mp after all. It's not like Georgia is a swing state or anything.

Edited April 2 by The Sisko

[tshile]

3 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

This can't go away as another "my bad, war be like that sometimes" because now this organization is pulling out when they were there to address the famine concerns. 

But that’s exactly what it is and will be. 
 

This happens. We’ve attacked our own troops before. Hanging out in a war zone isn’t to be taken lightly, and this is why. They signed up to be in a war zone. They understand the risks. Just like everyone else, who decides to not be an aid worker in a war zone. Same with journalists. 
 

doesn’t mean it doesn’t suck. It does suck. But it’s a risk you accept when you pack your **** and head into a war zone. 

[tshile]

As for them leaving - I don’t think Israel cares if they all leave. I wouldn’t be surprised if it turns out they intentionally targeted them to scare them all out, knowing they can say “oops my bad” and get away with it (because they will, intentional or not)
 

as for Sisko - good representation of some of the nonsense in our general electorate that creates the mess we have. Single issue voters that can never see a bigger picture need. 
 

go ahead and vote for Trump bud. It may come as a surprise to you - but it’s not shocking at all you made that post. And I don’t expect anyone to waste any effort changing your mind 😂 

Edited April 2 by tshile

[Renegade7]

27 minutes ago, tshile said:

But that’s exactly what it is and will be.

 

Friendly fire does come with the territory...but the immediate concern is an aid group there specifically to address food shortages is leaving now.

 

It's not "let's stop here" if countries like us are having to make piers from scratch to get food in because Israel is being so difficult concerning the land crossings.

 

 It's not like this aid group has never been in a war zone before, this is pretty bad if they don't trust coordinating with Israel to keep from getting bombed again and THATs why they're leaving.

[PleaseBlitz]

There is a big difference between “oops we ****ed up” and “soldiers deliberately ignore intelligence and orders to kill civilians.”  The latter is probably a war crime and the IDF needs to identify these MFers and hold them accountable. 

[Fergasun]

5 hours ago, Larry said:

 

Just saying, I have absolutely no problem at all believing the reports of Hamas and similar groups doing things like using ambulances to deliver weapons, and similar "human shield" operations.  

 

I'm not even sure I fault them, given their circumstances.  

 

Just saying that I also believe in cutting Israel some slack when some good guy gets killed.  

The 2nd part of the documentary provided evidence that the burning and beheadings of babies and families, plus the accusation of systemsatic rape are likely not true. 

 

The one represnentative they interviewed when claimed "they cut a pregnant womans stomach opened and killed her babie".  Said he would provide a picture.  He did so off camera and the interviewer basically said, "it looks like a piece of flesh" - not a baby.  It was just the woman. 

 

Israel spread these lies around to justify them bombing the heck out of Gaza.  I mean, its not like it wouldn't have mass support.  But, let's dehumanize Palestine. 

 

Either way, this conflict is a loser for all around, except perhaps Iran.  How do you make peace with murderers? 

 

Ceasefire for the hostages.  Netanyahu needs the war so he stays out of jail.  Neither side will win in the long run.

 

[tshile]

2 hours ago, PleaseBlitz said:

There is a big difference between “oops we ****ed up” and “soldiers deliberately ignore intelligence and orders to kill civilians.”  The latter is probably a war crime and the IDF needs to identify these MFers and hold them accountable. 

I agree. 
 

but it’s part of a war zone. And it happens.  It also happens to journalist.

 

im not holding my breath anyone will be held accountable for breaking the rules. 
 

🤷‍♂️ 

[Barry.Randolphe]

The blasé attitude to Israel yet again indiscriminately killing more aid workers and civilians is why Israel does what it does. They're never held accountable. Of course they purposely wanted to attack aid workers - their goal is to starve the Palestinians. They aren't making an effort to stop the Zionists from sitting in the road using child shields to prevent aid from making it into Gaza.

 

This has been going on for a long time....for the U.S. military similarities, reminds me quite a bit of the USS Liberty incident when they purposefully attacked an American Navy spy ship off the coast of Egypt despite it being clearly marked as a USN ship with an American flag flying clear as a day on a sunny day. Of course, that was all swept under the rug as usual.

Edited April 3 by Barry.Randolphe

[skinsmarydu]

As a food worker, I'm really pissed off. 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

If Israel is going to attack Rafah, Israel needs to go do what it is going to do and be done with it. The trickle of atrocities like this isn’t good for anyone.
 

If they had of went into Rafah right away, civilians would have been killed.

Now they are waiting at the behest of the United Stated and international pressure while people in Rafah starve. In the meantime their soldiers are free to target anything that moves. So more mistakes are made. When they finally enter Rafah civilians will die. 

 

The delay isn’t good for anyone except Hamas. I mean, unless you can get Israel to stay out of Rafah. But I think they have made up their mind.

Edited April 4 by CousinsCowgirl84

[Die Hard]

On 4/2/2024 at 5:56 PM, The Sisko said:

They're war criminals and I don't buy the whole, "Oops" routine. This is a pattern of behavior for them. Journalists, aid workers, ambulances, etc. make arrangements with the Israeli military, then come under fire. I've threatened it for a while now, but I've reached a point where I'm seriously considering not voting for Genocide Joe this fall. I'm not voting for the Orange Putin Puppet but I'm starting to think that after backing these kinds of war crimes by Israel for decades, albeit usually lower levels of destruction, the US deserves whatever Tr卐mp 2.0 brings.

 

On another note, after destroying an Iranian embassy, it would be interesting to see what would happen if Iran fired some missiles/drones and destroyed an Israeli embassy somewhere, as they'd be well within their rights to do. However, I'm sure the Israeli attack is being considered a surgical military strike while the identical behavior from Iran would be called terrorism.

 

**Edit: Yeah, hilarious TTB. Perhaps I'll vote for Tr卐mp after all. It's not like Georgia is a swing state or anything.

Serious question. Let’s say you vote for Trump, Trump wins the election.

 

How does Trump handle the situation in Isreal differently/better?

 

My understanding of Trump is that he’s an isolationist when it comes to foreign policy. He wants to pull the US out of NATO and withdraw US troops/bases across the world. He wants to disengage the US military from any conflict. He said he’d let Putin (an authoritarian leader) attack NATO countries and let European countries fend for themselves.
 

How do you think he’d engage with Netanyahu/Isreal?

 

What country/leadership in the world is dealing with Netanyahu/Isreal in a manner befitting your tastes?

 

 

[@DCGoldPants]

33 minutes ago, Die Hard said:

How does Trump handle the situation in Isreal differently/better?

 

Trump probably gives Bibi way more weapons and bombs and vehicles than Biden has/would. Bibi goes hardcore to keep himself in office and ramps up the attacks in Gaza. Other nations around Israel have been dying for an excuse to launch a full-scale attack on them without full-throated international support of Israel, especially in Europe. The US then sends troops to Israel because evangelists needed it protected to fulfill biblical prophecy.

 

In the end, a lot of people die. A lot more than now. 

Edited April 4 by @DCGoldPants

[Skins24]

On 4/2/2024 at 10:50 PM, Barry.Randolphe said:

The blasé attitude to Israel yet again indiscriminately killing more aid workers and civilians is why Israel does what it does. They're never held accountable. Of course they purposely wanted to attack aid workers - their goal is to starve the Palestinians.

First part, not really what we're seeing. I would argue no one is held to a higher account than Israel.

Look at the other war, for example. What Russia is doing in and to Ukrainians is undeniably several magnitudes worse - I hate saying that because a dead civilian is a dead civilian, or a (fill in whatever evil you can think of) is still (that evil) no matter where, but the atrocities committed are on a greater scale. Yet we will never see the scale of demonstrations, condemnations, protests, etc. against Russia that we see against Israel.

Even the U.S. is not held accountable to the scale Israel is.

 

For the second part - the purposely killing aid workers part. Hard to say on the individual soldier level, but I would say highly unlikely overall. So this attack itself was deliberate. Unless someone was operating on their own (which I think is the least likely case) multiple people have to say 'Yes' for a strike to happen. But purposely targeting aid workers does not help Israel's cause, and especially not Netanyahu's, who's hanging on by a thread right now.

 

 

On 4/2/2024 at 8:32 PM, Fergasun said:

The 2nd part of the documentary provided evidence that the burning and beheadings of babies and families, plus the accusation of systemsatic rape are likely not true. 

 

The one represnentative they interviewed when claimed "they cut a pregnant womans stomach opened and killed her babie".  Said he would provide a picture.  He did so off camera and the interviewer basically said, "it looks like a piece of flesh" - not a baby.  It was just the woman. 

 

Israel spread these lies around to justify them bombing the heck out of Gaza.  I mean, its not like it wouldn't have mass support.  But, let's dehumanize Palestine.

Definitely consider the source in this case, lol

OS, even on the open web, what happened can be verified...

Edited April 4 by Skins24

[Larry]

28 minutes ago, Skins24 said:

First part, not really what we're seeing. I would argue no one is held to a higher account than Israel.

Look at the other war, for example. What Russia is doing in and to Ukrainians is undeniably several magnitudes worse - I hate saying that because a dead civilian is a dead civilian, or a (fill in whatever evil you can think of) is still (that evil) no matter where, but the atrocities committed are on a greater scale. Yet we will never see the scale of demonstrations, condemnations, protests, etc. against Russia that we see against Israel.

 

The US is leading international sanctions against the nation of Russia.  And against Russian individuals in positions of power. 

 

The US is passing laws making it illegal for individual American entities to choose to boycot Israel. 

[Fergasun]

2 hours ago, Skins24 said:

First part, not really what we're seeing. I would argue no one is held to a higher account than Israel.

Look at the other war, for example. What Russia is doing in and to Ukrainians is undeniably several magnitudes worse - I hate saying that because a dead civilian is a dead civilian, or a (fill in whatever evil you can think of) is still (that evil) no matter where, but the atrocities committed are on a greater scale. Yet we will never see the scale of demonstrations, condemnations, protests, etc. against Russia that we see against Israel.

Even the U.S. is not held accountable to the scale Israel is.

 

For the second part - the purposely killing aid workers part. Hard to say on the individual soldier level, but I would say highly unlikely overall. So this attack itself was deliberate. Unless someone was operating on their own (which I think is the least likely case) multiple people have to say 'Yes' for a strike to happen. But purposely targeting aid workers does not help Israel's cause, and especially not Netanyahu's, who's hanging on by a thread right now.

 

 

Definitely consider the source in this case, lol

OS, even on the open web, what happened can be verified...

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/38-children-were-killed-20-orphaned-on-oct-7-the-state-did-not-pass-the-test-of-protecting-them/

 

40 babies beheaded yet that doesn't jive with official statistics....

[Renegade7]

Justice and revenge are not the same thing.

 

Is the beheading of Israeli babies supposed to be a justification for starving Palestinian babies?

 

We are truly lost if it is.

[Skins24]

2 hours ago, Larry said:

 

The US is leading international sanctions against the nation of Russia.  And against Russian individuals in positions of power. 

 

The US is passing laws making it illegal for individual American entities to choose to boycot Israel. 

 

Sanctions that are easily skirted around, lol.

But, I was mainly talking about the general populace. And the international community.

If protest were to scale for the atrocities committed, the hundreds of thousands we're seeing against Israel would be in the millions for Russia. But, that would never happen. The argument was made that Israel is not held accountable for their actions. But that's not what we're seeing. For just about all of their history (you know, modern day) they have been held to a much higher standard. That's why we 'don't fault them' if Hamas uses civilians as a human shield. But all hell breaks lose if civilians are killed by Israeli hands.

 

15 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Justice and revenge are not the same thing.

 

Is the beheading of Israeli babies supposed to be a justification for starving Palestinian babies?

 

We are truly lost if it is.

I don't know if this was directed at me, but I agree.

My mentioning of the babies was only to point out, that despite Al Jazeera's claims to the contrary, one can verify for themselves the authenticity of the reports. Not just that, the other stuff they claim may not have been true as well. 

[Barry.Randolphe]

2 hours ago, Skins24 said:

 

Sanctions that are easily skirted around, lol.

But, I was mainly talking about the general populace. And the international community.

If protest were to scale for the atrocities committed, the hundreds of thousands we're seeing against Israel would be in the millions for Russia. But, that would never happen. The argument was made that Israel is not held accountable for their actions. But that's not what we're seeing. For just about all of their history (you know, modern day) they have been held to a much higher standard. That's why we 'don't fault them' if Hamas uses civilians as a human shield. But all hell breaks lose if civilians are killed by Israeli hands.

 

 

This is all nonsense. Why would we need to have elaborate protests against Russia because almost the entire world (besides Belarus, NK, Iran, China etc) sees what they're doing and disagrees with them?

 

If anyone protests Israel, the Israelis dismiss it and call any type of criticism anti-semitism. They have meltdowns like petulant children when you tell them no.

 

Israel has not been held to "higher" standard, they're held to a different standard than anyone else that allows them to do whatever they want. That's why "all hell breaks loose" - people are tired of the world looking the other way. When has Israel ever been held accountable for one of these attacks on civilians? Every time the UN votes on finally holding Israel accountable, the US (as well as other countries) block it. This is why this continues to happen over and over again.....whether it be aid workers or journalists, the Israelis don't give two ****s since they know a vote won't go through.

[Fergasun]

@Skins24

@Renegade7

From the article:

Quote

According to data released by Israel National Council for the Child, 38 children were killed in Israel on October 7 during the Hamas-led terrorist onslaught.  Three of those children were under the age of three, and four were aged 3-6.

The whole point is that the beheaded babies are fake news.  It's a lie.  There is not a mass of dead babies.