Hamas Attacks Against Israel

[TheGreatBuzz]

1 hour ago, Fan since a Fetus said:

Are these high horses in the room with you right now? hmmm? 
 

don’t hot box the horses! 

 

I considered hotboxing Shamus in my tent when we went camping last week but decided against it.

[Fergasun]

Just now, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

If the perspective is “Hamas was/may have been justified” I don’t need to hear it,

Hell no.  That's ridiculous.  What is justified to attack and brutally murder 1400 civilians -- men, women and babies?  

 

The best perspective I get is reading Arab forums and the best perspective defending  October 7 was, "What's Hamas doing?  perhaps it could be justified if it was an attack against only IDF targets."  

 

Both sides will self-justify....

[Dan T.]

What I can't fathom is what was Hamas' strategic purpose in launching the October 7 attack on Israeli civilians?  What was their intended end game?  They didn't just poke the bear, the murdered the bear's family right in front of the bear's eyes.

[tshile]

34 minutes ago, RansomthePasserby said:

Living in Qatar in luxury and safety while your people die is not leadership. 

Totally wouldn’t be surprised if Israel assassinated him 

28 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Normally this is where I say Aljezerra has a live streaming English YouTube channel...but there's a difference between a different perspective and just the opposite end of what you're describing. 

 

They seem more grounded, like BBC, but pretending they don't also have an agenda is denial.  I would look there for what the middle east is saying before looking at CNN, propaganda or not.

I’ve found npr to be good

 

as far as I can tell they beat the rest of the media to being on the ground in West Bank reporting the uptick in violence. And they reported it by having one reporter interview Palestinians, one interview with Israelis, and when accusations were levied in either side they added whether they were substantiated or not. 
 

 

[PeterMP]

8 minutes ago, Dan T. said:

What I can't fathom is what was Hamas' strategic purpose in launching the October 7 attack on Israeli civilians?  What was their intended end game?  They didn't just poke the bear, the murdered the bear's family right in front of the bear's eyes.

 

It seems they wanted an extreme Israeli response to derail peace talks between Israel and the Gulf states that were preceding without settling their issue which historically the Gulf states have said would be required before any peace agreements with Israel.

[tshile]

8 minutes ago, Dan T. said:

What I can't fathom is what was Hamas' strategic purpose in launching the October 7 attack on Israeli civilians?  What was their intended end game?  They didn't just poke the bear, the murdered the bear's family right in front of the bear's eyes.

lots of talk about the theory that it was aimed at interrupting the negotiation of normalizing relations with Israel and Egypt and Saudi Arabia (and maybe some others)

 

it’s also possible they expected help. Maybe they didn’t realize Egypt, Syria, Iran, Russia, and China would either be unwilling or unable to help. 
 

also seen theories that Russia put them up to it to rope USA into a middle eastern war and distract us from Ukraine. 

They got the intel somehow. Someone was helping them. I imagine who that person is would explain motive 

[Fan since a Fetus]

22 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

I considered hotboxing Shamus in my tent when we went camping last week but decided against it.

I believe you chose wisely

[Destino]

1 hour ago, Fergasun said:

After Iraq and even to some extent Afghanistan and tons of Islamaphobia after shoe bomber and other stuff in America, I feel like I can tell when I am being targetted for what I will refer to as propoganda.  

I’m no expert in propaganda but it seems that both sides were very much primed and ready. Israel is dominating the news cycles where as Palestinian propaganda machine is clearly more focused on social media. The letter Bootsy DeSantis singled out from SPJ is essentially a propaganda guide for students and social media. Tells them exactly what arguments to make and even lays out the rationale for continued terrorism. Israelis seems especially adept at keeping the focus of the major media focused on Oct7th victims, even while they kill thousands of palestinians. 
 

this war is being fought heavily in the media.

 

 

30 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

It seems they wanted an extreme Israeli response to derail peace talks between Israel and the Gulf states that were preceding without settling their issue which historically the Gulf states have said would be required before any peace agreements with Israel.

assuming it was Hamas that wanted to derail the agreement and not Iran. 

 

while we’re on it, we’re also assuming this spilling into a larger conflict is something no one wants. I suspect some in the US and Saudi Arabia would love if Iran allowed themselves to be lured into an open conflict.  

[Riggo-toni]

Iran provides funds to Islamic Jihad and other factions within Hamas, but they are not calling the shots.  Remember that Hamas are salafist Sunni Arabs and Iranians are Persian Shiites. Both consider the other to be heretical and racially inferior. The support is a marriage of convenience to weaken/distract Israel away from Iran's favorite allie Hezbollah.

Iranian and Russian agents probably encouraged an attack, but Hamas is not a puppet of either. Iran is already in a proxy war with the Saudis in Yemen, and isn't about to do more than launch a few random rocket attacks at US or IDF bases. Its client states of Syria and Lebanon are nearly failed states with too many internal issues to get involved.

[tshile]

37 minutes ago, Destino said:

while we’re on it, we’re also assuming this spilling into a larger conflict is something no one wants. I suspect some in the US and Saudi Arabia would love if Iran allowed themselves to be lured into an open conflict

this is just where I’m coming from - but my understanding is the people of Iran are not too fond of their government right now, and that their government understands this and their reluctance is based on losing control of their own country. 
 

Russia has the whole Ukraine thing. Syria is a mess and has their own internal issues. 
 

and it seems china is looking at its allies and realizing they all kind ofnsuck, and not interested. 
 

I am guessing and could be totally wrong on any or all of it. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by tshile

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

Totally wouldn’t be surprised if Israel assassinated him 

I’ve found npr to be good

 

as far as I can tell they beat the rest of the media to being on the ground in West Bank reporting the uptick in violence. And they reported it by having one reporter interview Palestinians, one interview with Israelis, and when accusations were levied in either side they added whether they were substantiated or not. 
 

 

I know some folks want to lump NPR and PBS into the Liberal Media Bias because it's easy to do so, but their non-profit format and thus style of journalism so badly needs to be expanded into something that competes with mainstream media.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

Fact based media is liberal biased 😱

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, Destino said:

assuming it was Hamas that wanted to derail the agreement and not Iran. 

 

while we’re on it, we’re also assuming this spilling into a larger conflict is something no one wants. I suspect some in the US and Saudi Arabia would love if Iran allowed themselves to be lured into an open conflict.  

 

The two aren't mutually exclusive.  Iran and Hamas are partly allies because their interest often over lap.  It is possible (and from my perspective even likely) that they both wanted to derail the agreements.

 

Peace agreements between the Gulf states and Israel seem to hurt them both.  I'm not sure why the implication it had to be one or another. 

 

I certainly wouldn't assume that nobody wants this to spill into a larger conflict.  I suspect there are those in Hamas that would also like to see this turn into a larger conflict if it aids them.  I also wouldn't rule out some in Israel minding Jordan and/or Lebanon being pulled into it.

Edited November 1, 2023 by PeterMP

[tshile]

1 hour ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Fact based media is liberal biased 😱

Yes but not all liberal biased media is fact based 

[Larry]

2 hours ago, tshile said:

also seen theories that Russia put them up to it to rope USA into a middle eastern war and distract us from Ukraine. 

 

I could see that as at least believable.  

[The Evil Genius]

1 hour ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Fact based media is liberal biased 😱

 

The stupidest part of that is that 95% of the current GOP feel that way. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by The Evil Genius

[ixcuincle]

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/newyork/news/cornell-students-shocked-by-arrest-of-fellow-student-patrick-dai-for-antisemitic-threats/

 

A Cornell University engineering student faced a federal judge Wednesday afternoon accused of promoting the murder of Jewish students on campus. 

 

From a student at the prestigious Cornell School of Engineering to a suspect in federal custody, prosecutors say 21-year-old Patrick Dai threatened to kill Jewish students at Cornell University and "shoot up" an on-campus kosher dining facility. 

 

"Obviously completely vile, and completely unacceptable for something like that to be happening on a college campus in America in 2023," Cornell student Gavi Schechter said. 

 

"I really don't think, and I don't believe, that somebody at Cornell would make such evil and vile and disgusting threats," student Sam Friedman said. 

 

But federal investigators said that's exactly what happened when Dai posted graphic threats online against Jewish students. 

[Cooked Crack]

Quote

The IDF intends to recruit settlers who have not undergone military service and place them as regional defense militiamen in their area of residence. 

 

The recruits are expected to undergo accelerated basic training for three weeks, after which they will be armed and stationed in the settlements. The program is open to civilians between the ages of 27 to 50, who have not served in the military. 

 

Candidates were asked to fill out a form to indicate, among other things, their religious affiliation such as ultra-Orthodox, national-religious, national ultra-Orthodox, religious or other.

 

[Destino]

Uh so about the nazis…. Yeah we don’t know them. No idea why they could be at this rally either. Certainly it can’t be anything being said at this rally. lol

 

[Cooked Crack]

 

[Cooked Crack]

 

[Cooked Crack]

 

[tshile]

19 hours ago, Destino said:

Uh so about the nazis…. Yeah we don’t know them. No idea why they could be at this rally either. Certainly it can’t be anything being said at this rally. lol

“when I look around and see nazis, I know I’m on the wrong side”

[Fergasun]

@Cooked Crack

I don't believe that the international community views the Israeli settlements as legal. 

 

see here (from the UN):

Quote

The Security Council reaffirmed this afternoon that Israel’s establishment of settlements in Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, had no legal validity, constituting a flagrant violation under international law and a major obstacle to the vision of two States living side-by-side in peace and security, within internationally recognized borders.  Adopting resolution 2334 (2016) by 14 votes, with the United States abstaining, the Council reiterated its demand that Israel immediately and completely cease all settlement activities in the occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem.  It underlined that it would not recognize any changes to the 4 June 1967 lines, including with regard to Jerusalem, other than those agreed by the two sides through negotiations.

...

Quote

Explaining her delegation’s abstention, the representative of the United States said it had been a long-standing position of her country that settlements undermined Israel’s security and eroded prospects for peace and stability.  She emphasized, however, that her vote today had not been straightforward.  Explaining that Israel had been treated differently from other States for as long as it had been a member of the United Nations, she noted that during the course of 2016, 18 resolutions adopted in the General Assembly and others in the Human Rights Council had all condemned Israel.  It was because of that bias that the United States had not voted in favour of the resolution, she said, emphasizing that her delegation would not have let the resolution pass had it not addressed terrorism and incitement to violence.

...

Quote

Israel’s representative said those who had voted “yes” to the resolution had voted “no” to negotiations, to progress and to a chance for better lives for both Israelis and Palestinians, and to the possibility of peace.  The resolution would continue to provide excuses for the Palestinians to avoid recognizing Israel’s right to exist, he said, adding that the Council had voted to condemn the State of Israel and the Jewish people for building homes in the land of Israel, and to deny “our eternal rights” in Jerusalem.  “We will continue to be a democratic State based on the rule of law and full civil and human rights for all our citizens,” he declared.  “And we will continue to be a Jewish State proudly reclaiming the land of our forefathers.”

That lady at the end of the piece talking about how they have a right to the land?  Where is your empathy?  What does it matter that you can identify where you are descended from?  Why should 4 thousand years matter?

[Cooked Crack]

36 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

I don't believe that the international community views the Israeli settlements as legal.

I think it's his accent but he's saying illegal. I heard legal at first too