2024 NFL Draft Position/Tracker - Final Pick #2

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, skinsfan66 said:

You brought up GB, they have one of the best young teams in the NFL agree, Could they have traded up and took a shot at replacing Love when he was struggling? They did not and have a nice young team on the rise with the picks they saved. Chicago, could have taken a QB to replace Fields last year? May take one this year. It is like you say GM, Coach and the pick or choice are open. But May is not 100%. All options on the table, it could be Maye or.....

 

Am I right in guessing that the root of why you don't want to take a QB is because you don't want to get off the Sam Howell bandwagon?

[woodpecker]

2 hours ago, skinsfan66 said:

There are a whole lot of teams out there that wished they had not drafted a QB at the top, The Panthers being one. Nothing is 100% The Bears were 100% correct not to take Young in redo. The new Coach will meet the QB's before the draft he may like Maye or not it's their call their Jobs on the line, they have options. 

I wish the Bengals had not drafted a QB at the top in 2000. And I’m wishing that the Bears do not take one this year. The Panthers just wish they would’ve taken a different QB.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

10 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

Am I right in guessing that the root of why you don't want to take a QB is because you don't want to get off the Sam Howell bandwagon?

Your question wasn’t directed at me, but I’m going to share my thoughts anyways… I still like Sam, I still think Sam could potentially be good, and I would like to keep him on our roster. But I also want to draft Caleb Williams or Drake May and get them on the field.

[RandyHolt]

2 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Now do his bad games, plenty to chose from.  

 

I am getting tired of the love for Justin Fields. As I had said after year 3 we know who he is, an inconsistent QB who has brilliant moments but can't be counted on for 17 weeks.  You don't pass up the chance to get a player who could totally change your franchise for a guy like Fields and picks.  Just pull the trigger now when you have that rare opportunity to get a prospect like Caleb Williams. 

Fair enough. But let's all make sure to do all of Caleb Williams's's bad reads throws and games as well and ignore all the cupcake games. Yep I'll take those 9 TDs vs San Diego Community College and Nevada JV right off his ledger. I wish people would make tubes of a players worst plays as often as they do their best plays. 

 

I am surprised he lost 5 of his last 6 to close out his collegiate career but we'll just blame USCs defense and ignore why he didn't put the team on his back. For now. Not much rushing on the ledger heh a throwback era 1.4 yard average.

 

I'd focus on his very surprising lack of production in the middle of the year, and maybe those final 2 games, long and hard if I was a GM. What's the consensus explanation?

 

 

Edited January 11 by RandyHolt

[The Consigliere]

13 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

Yep, I agree with your take. I think Fields, in the right offense with good coaching could be comparable to Lamar Jackson given a commitment to the running game and a great TE. I'll bet DJ Moore is thrilled with Fields (96 rec, 1364 yds, 8 TD) and so is Kmet. Fields is improving and I think the Bears may end up sticking with him while maybe going QB with one of their other draft picks after they take MHJ and another stud in round 1. 

I don't really get this take at all. Moore was consistently one of the best 10-15 WR's in the league, Mooney had a great debut season when playing with Dalton but wasn't great with Fields and hasn't been since. Kmet is one of the better TE's around (and I say this as someone who much preferred the totally invisible as a pro Trautman to him), and then there's the Bears OL. I can't find the PFF rankings, but I found another site that had them top 10. On top of that Roschon Johnson was my favorite RB in last years class after the big 2. Achane is clearly better (if brittle) but Johnson looked fantastic when given a chance, and Herbert's a fantasy value darling amongst people.

 

I don't believe the surrounding talent is elite, but it's actually pretty good. They have two legit WR's, a top 10 TE, solid rb's, and a top 10 OL at least according to one site. I don't think Field's had a lot to work with as a rookie or even in '22, but by '23 they'd built him a pretty good OL, given him a legit #1 WR, provided him with an excellent all purpose back in Roschon, and a top end TE in Kmet. It's not a valid argument to say their talent is crap. or subpar. It's not, its a mix of solid (WR), good (TE), average to slightly below (RB), and good to very good (OL). Field's is just not a consistent thrower, period. He just isn't. And I say this as a guy who had him as 1B in '21, and was outraged when we made no attempt to trade up for him '21 (I still would've now, knowing all we know now, and 1000% would have, not knowing what we know now, back then and considerate it the height of absurdity that we stood pat for an experimental LB project when our in house QB's were as absurdly ridiculous as they were at the time). 

10 hours ago, RabidFan said:

Couldn't the same be said about Sam too?  No OL, no real TE but more WRs though an OC that never ran the ball and got him clobbered weekly so do we even know what we truly have?   Granted with the 2nd pick, it's almost like you have to go QB if the draftniks are current and both Caleb and Drake are aligned with better prospects in recent years.  Obvi its up to the new brass and if we get one of the top guys we are going after in both gm and hc, I'd trust them way over the regimes under Snyder.

The take's wrong to begin with, so there isn't a need to address it. DJ Moore is one of the best WR's in the league, Mooney was one of the best rookie WR's in the league in '21, until Fields became his full time QB in '22 (he did the bulk of his damage as a rook in Dalton starts), Kmet's a stud TE", roschon's one of the best blocking and pass catching backs around and was superb when used (idiot OC) as a rookie in those roles, Herbert was a steal of a find for them even if he's not all world anything and there line was ranked inside the top 10 by at least one service I saw. 

 

The problem the bears have are finishing touches around playmakers, and getting a QB that is consistent as a thrower, plus adding more touches to D, and getting a legit coach. 

[The Consigliere]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Let alone a QB draft next year that for the moment feels "meh".

 

Also usually teams don't oblige and cooperate with you trading up for the top perceived QB in those drafts.  Often not #2 either.  So if you don't get there organically, you are typically trading up for the third-4th best QB.  So for the moment that means we are trading up for someone like Carson Beck who would likely be like the 7th best QB in this draft. 

 

 

Will see.  Their GM already said they'd have to consider a QB because its a "unique opporunity".  That's more concrete than I expected this early.

 

Typically the dance is you make it feel like you can do either thing -- take a QB or keep your QB but keeping your QB is very tempting.  That's how the Cardinals played the Josh Rosen-Kyler Murray dance.  

 

This team tends to devalue the assets before they trade them.  But most smart teams do the opposite.  It behooves them to start leaking that they are torn because of how much they love Fields just like the Cards did with Rosen.

 

The Bears reporters, the ones I've listened to mostly think they are going to take a QB at #1 and expressed that Fields emergence was overplayed at the end of the season, that it was more about their defense.

 

Bears reporters were wrong. The emergence was about a schedule dip in the second half of the season that featured no scary teams whatsoever in what, the last 7 games, other than the Detroit offense (which they handled, outplaying them in both games). I do think the Bears aren't playing this right, but I also think the league has the book on Fields and front office perspectives are split over his value (generally an early or late day 2 pick, plus, or not plus a day 3 pick was the consensus in something I think you posted), but generally on the same page of something from day 2 and maybe or maybe not something from day 3. Fields has only the 1+1 left on his contract, so they aren't getting a first. Never were. It's a question of a 2nd or a 3rd and whether anythings added on top. 

 

They were always gonna draft a QB at 1. They make the Fields trade, and they got plenty of nice ammo for day 2 and day 3. Only major problem is that if they aren't happy with Roschon (which would be insane) or Herbert, this draft offers little help at the position. 

[RandyHolt]

I am not conviced Caleb is the best QB to draft. More than this disturbing image is finding out he wasn't in a complex offense.

 

[The Consigliere]

3 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 

I don't think this will happen, nor do I think it would be a bad thing if it actually did.  I am a huge fan of Drake Maye, and have been since the first time I watched him in 2022, and I am 100% sold that we can build a championship team around him.  But Caleb is better than him.  He's better in the way that Mahomes is better than Allen and Herbert and Burrow.  His talent is so superior and his creativity and decision making are so unique and next level, that he is the betting favorite among all recent QB draftees to be the best player in the NFL one day, after Mahomes ages out of the crown.

 

I think it's weird how little regard among regular fans that Caleb seems to get as a prospect, despite how unbelievably good he is.  There shouldn't really be any doubt about him being the #1 pick.  He's pretty much the wire to wire #1 pick in any draft class of the past ten years.  Usually you can't see these guys coming this well.  It wasn't as easy to see with Rodgers or Mahomes.  But Caleb won a Heisman and played three years for one of the highest profile coaches and QB whisperers in CFB, so he's further along in his development and his stardom.

I think it's pretty obvious. They are concerned with mental make up issues, and his personality and family. The distaste for him as a "personality" and potentially as a guy who may not have the right priorities, buttressed by a disappointing final season at a school most of this board hates, and in a conference no one in this board respects makes it easy for him to be undersold. I've been reading these takes about Pac-10/Pac-12 guys on our boards (this and CPND) since the 90's. There's always been an inherent underselling of west coast anything here. Now add his personality and mental make up, crying with his mom, and there's a further distaste which allows them to ignore the actual talent piece, which is flat out absurd. Not ideal size is the cherry on top.

 

All that being said, we all know mental make up is HUGE HUGE HUGE with QB's and pro football players in general, we just need to make sure the mental make up concerns are edge issues, rather than clear issues. Does it connect to him lacking leadership skills potentially? Does it connect to him having football as a lower priority (think Puka Nacua showing up at 4am for film sessions that only one other player attended from the start of training camp (Cooper Kupp), is he a first in last out, guy, or "there's a strip club I really need to check out on a tuesday night kind of guy so I'm out early and in late?".

 

The mental make up piece matters, but for now, people are stitching together rumors and stories about aspects of his personality to build a narrative of who he is which may be right or may be totally wrong, and they're using it to undersell his actual ability, which is guaranteed to be 100% wrong.

 

This is what due diligence is about. We should be vetting the living ---- out of the top QB's in the class, inside and out, left and right, right and left so we don't end up running into the Jeff George/RGIII personality mental make up issue, so we avoid the pitfalls of guys like Justin Blackmon etc. Not saying we shouldn't do that, we absolutely should, but we need to be honest about the full story of the prospects talent and concerns, cover EVERYTHING. With the haters on Caleb, they clearly are not doing that, but those of us that love his talent, need to make sure we are not underselling the concerns too, of him, and everyone else. 

[Warhead36]

The things that concern me reg. Williams:

 

1. His size. 6'1'' just isn't very tall. NFL history suggests you will struggle if you aren't 6'2'' MINIMUM. Yes its only one inch but every inch matters in the league.

 

2. His game is very reliant on improvising. Granted he's excellent at that, but can he consistently execute the scheme to beat defenses? You can't just run around and try to backyard football your way to success in the NFL. Defenses figure that stuff out quick. Mahomes is amazing because his improv plays come as a supplement to him just destroying teams with his arm and executing the Reid offense.

 

3. Character/persona. He just screams crybaby/diva to me. It might be nothing but I don't know, typically where there is smoke there is fire. Is he gonna be coachable? Will he shrink when getting his rear end kicked by the likes of Micah Parsons and Kayvon Thibodeaux and Hassan Redick? I want my QBs to be rocks mentally.

 

4. The hometown factor. I hate that he's from D.C. You just know all the enablers will come out and result in massive distractions. And the hometown savior angle can be devastating to a young QB trying to develop and work on his game. Haskins was from D.C. Young was from D.C. They both would have been better off playing elsewhere.

 

 

All that said, if he was there at #2 I'd still sprint to the podium to take him because the overall talent level is just so tantalizing and I want a franchise QB so bad.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

[Ghost of]

28 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

The things that concern me reg. Williams:

 

2. His game is very reliant on improvising. Granted he's excellent at that, but can he consistently execute the scheme to beat defenses? You can't just run around and try to backyard football your way to success in the NFL. Defenses figure that stuff out quick. Mahomes is amazing because his improv plays come as a supplement to him just destroying teams with his arm and executing the Reid offense.

 

 

 

I think mental makeup combined with the physical tools is what you need at QB.  There's a guy who basically never loses (State Title in Illinois, IMG Academy National Title, College Football National Champion) and has significant ability to run and make NFL throws (but lacks consistency, partially because I think the running game can make you get out of rhythm) that may or may not be available.

 

But as for Mahomes, I think he's way more reliant on improv plays than people think and one reason he's had struggles isn't just because a receiver dropped a ball (which is true a lot this year) but because he is not a great pocket QB, he's a great hybrid. He does struggle breaking down a defense at times and that's one reason he seems more vulnerable/beatable than the guys who are in the GOAT conversations.

[HoggLife]

4 hours ago, Chris 44 said:

I have this feeling that leading up to the draft Maye will move past CW on a lot of boards.

I'm getting the feeling NE might trade up to #1 then draft Maye. He seems like a NE kind of guy. 

Edited January 11 by HoggLife

[Warhead36]

10 minutes ago, HoggLife said:

I'm getting the feeling NE might trade up to #1 then draft Maye. He seems like a NE kind of guy. 

We don't know what a NE guy is since they just let Bellicheck go.

10 minutes ago, Ghost of said:

 

I think mental makeup combined with the physical tools is what you need at QB.  There's a guy who basically never loses (State Title in Illinois, IMG Academy National Title, College Football National Champion) and has significant ability to run and make NFL throws (but lacks consistency, partially because I think the running game can make you get out of rhythm) that may or may not be available.

 

But as for Mahomes, I think he's way more reliant on improv plays than people think and one reason he's had struggles isn't just because a receiver dropped a ball (which is true a lot this year) but because he is not a great pocket QB, he's a great hybrid. He does struggle breaking down a defense at times and that's one reason he seems more vulnerable/beatable than the guys who are in the GOAT conversations.

You don't win two Super Bowls, two Super Bowl MVPs, and two regular season MVPs being super reliant on improv. That isn't sustainable.

[Ghost of]

6 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

You don't win two Super Bowls, two Super Bowl MVPs, and two regular season MVPs being super reliant on improv. That isn't sustainable.

 

Jalen Hurts, to me, is still not a great QB and yet he was a hair's breadth from being Super Bowl MVP after a great season.  

 

I don't know that I used an adjective like "super" just that he is more reliant than people think and maybe instead of improv, there's another term we can use that's not just repeating things like 'off-schedule' or 'off-platform.' Honestly, I think Aaron Rodgers is another QB who is capable of magnificent feats but isn't quite the pocket passer (in terms of reading a defense consistently) that other great QBs have been.

[Forehead]

Alright, I've read the past several pages about Chicago, Fields, what they're going to do, what we're going to do, and I've figured out a solution that checks all the boxes.  Prepare to have your faces melted from this awesomeness.  All we have to do to cause a nuclear explosion is the following.

 

Chicago trades Justin Fields and the #9 pick to Washington for #2 overall.

 

For Washington:

- We don't need to wait 4 months to figure out who our next "okay" QB will be that we get to crap all over and complain about, we'll already know his name.  Think of the how much "agony of not knowing" we're saving ourselves.  We can get a head start on our ****ing!

- At #9, we can take whoever falls between Bowers or the Fashanu/Alt/Latham trio and still get the TE superstar or franchise left tackle half the board craves.

- We'd also have a head start complaining about our new owner and the new management.  What's all this happy "new start" crap I keep reading?  We need to be mad at our ownership and management, we've had 24 years of practice.  This would give us a jump start.

 

For Chicago:

- They can draft one of the QB's and Marvin Harrison and have their young connection for the next 10 years.  But because even high 1st round QB's have at least a 50% bust rate and Chicago is "where receivers go to die," they'll screw it up somehow.

- Even better, Chicago plays 4D chess and drafts Williams and Maye 1-2* and lets them fight it out.  Preferable a televised last man standing blood sport type deal that can entertain the rest of us.  Winner gets to be the starting QB.  Chicago should be awarded Hard Knocks if this happens, the rookie QB fight could be the season finale.

 

*This is otherwise known as the Forehead fantasy football strategy, which hearkens back to maybe 1999 - 2000 when I didn't really know what I was doing and online fantasy football in places like Yahoo was still in its infancy.  This was also back with the scoring was a 6 points for passing TD's and you had to get the entire 20/50 yards to get a point, there were no fractional points.  Well, guess who had the 10th/11th pick in the draft and thought he'd 4D chess everyone by drafting both Peyton Manning and Daunte Culpepper, then trading one of them for a king's random?  Definitely not this guy!...*sigh*

[CapsSkins]

7 minutes ago, Forehead said:

Alright, I've read the past several pages about Chicago, Fields, what they're going to do, what we're going to do, and I've figured out a solution that checks all the boxes.  Prepare to have your faces melted from this awesomeness.  All we have to do to cause a nuclear explosion is the following.

 

Chicago trades Justin Fields and the #9 pick to Washington for #2 overall.

 

For Washington:

- We don't need to wait 4 months to figure out who our next "okay" QB will be that we get to crap all over and complain about, we'll already know his name.  Think of the how much "agony of not knowing" we're saving ourselves.  We can get a head start on our ****ing!

- At #9, we can take whoever falls between Bowers or the Fashanu/Alt/Latham trio and still get the TE superstar or franchise left tackle half the board craves.

- We'd also have a head start complaining about our new owner and the new management.  What's all this happy "new start" crap I keep reading?  We need to be mad at our ownership and management, we've had 24 years of practice.  This would give us a jump start.

 

For Chicago:

- They can draft one of the QB's and Marvin Harrison and have their young connection for the next 10 years.  But because even high 1st round QB's have at least a 50% bust rate and Chicago is "where receivers go to die," they'll screw it up somehow.

- Even better, Chicago plays 4D chess and drafts Williams and Maye 1-2* and lets them fight it out.  Preferable a televised last man standing blood sport type deal that can entertain the rest of us.  Winner gets to be the starting QB.  Chicago should be awarded Hard Knocks if this happens, the rookie QB fight could be the season finale.

 

*This is otherwise known as the Forehead fantasy football strategy, which hearkens back to maybe 1999 - 2000 when I didn't really know what I was doing and online fantasy football in places like Yahoo was still in its infancy.  This was also back with the scoring was a 6 points for passing TD's and you had to get the entire 20/50 yards to get a point, there were no fractional points.  Well, guess who had the 10th/11th pick in the draft and thought he'd 4D chess everyone by drafting both Peyton Manning and Daunte Culpepper, then trading one of them for a king's random?  Definitely not this guy!...*sigh*

 

[PeterMP]

5 hours ago, Going Commando said:

I think it's weird how little regard among regular fans that Caleb seems to get as a prospect, despite how unbelievably good he is.  There shouldn't really be any doubt about him being the #1 pick.  He's pretty much the wire to wire #1 pick in any draft class of the past ten years.  Usually you can't see these guys coming this well.  It wasn't as easy to see with Rodgers or Mahomes.  But Caleb won a Heisman and played three years for one of the highest profile coaches and QB whisperers in CFB, so he's further along in his development and his stardom.

 

I'll touch on this and I think sort of echo @Warhead36

 

At some level Williams gets dinged because of his athleticism.  He makes plays that get people open.  But that then means he's not necessarily consistently throwing into the narrow spaces you need to be successful at QB at the NFL level and not always/necessarily clearly reading defenses and processing information the way I think you need to be successful at QB in the NFL.

 

Also he's struggled more against better teams where his athleticism isn't the difference maker it is against some weaker team and I think there's some questions.  (But admittedly USC's roster isn't great so as a whole his team is at an athleticism deficit when they play better teams).  

 

And then I have similar concerns with Maye (and add in a point that @KDawg made about his mechanics in tendency to drift at the top of his drop instead of just delivering the ball or taking off).

 

My preference for a QB would be a guy that has gone to a top flight school and so yes is surrounded by high end talent, but then has also shown that with that high end talent he can compete with other high end teams.  That Maye and Williams were at schools that aren't like that to me that makes it hard to read how good they are at the less obvious things (but still things I think you have to be to really be successful at QB especially as you transition from that 1st to 2nd contract for the most part) and makes me feel a little uncomfortable.

 

I also think we've seen some teams getting QBs not at the very top of the draft and then being very good with them when they are on their rookie deals.  I understand how important QBs are, but even the most important position on the field can be over valued.  I wonder if we've reached a point where many teams are putting too many assets (in terms of draft picks and salary for guys not on their 1st contract) into QB.  And then teams that are finding value lower in the draft without the salary and pick investment are actually better off.

 

With all that said if Williams is there at 2, I don't know how you not take him though.

Edited January 11 by PeterMP

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

First of all, let me be clear: We have to utilize this opportunity to draft a QB, however that shakes out.

 

But be fair.  Same people talking about Draft X and getting Y is automatic have said that umpteen other times and been wrong as hell.  Not just at QB either, that’s actually a route we don’t tend to go.  But I’ve watched posters here tout so many guys as can’t miss guarantees that miss like a MF. 

[ThatNFLChick]

3 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

I am not conviced Caleb is the best QB to draft. More than this disturbing image is finding out he wasn't in a complex offense.

 

 

 

 

Honestly, I don't see how this doesn't concern people about both him and Maye (though Caleb is my first choice). Maye always folds at the end of the season, has not played a standout game against a good team. I get it, they didn't have a ton of help. Do people think the Texans have an elite roster offensively? Yet they still got to 10-7 and beat teams that were far more talented than them. Some of that is the coach but don't tell me that Stroud isn't responsible for Nico Collins and Tank Dell and Noah Brown having such great seasons - he elevated their play and the people around him. 

 

 

Edited January 11 by ThatNFLChick

[Jumbo]

None of the top three guys being ballyhooed this year are going to be any better than Trevor Lawrence, who was even more ballyhooed,  has been so far. Good, but not elite. All below the ballyhooed Justin Herbert, who also hasn't delivered. 

 

 

(My staff assignment this morning was to stir the pot and use the word "ballyhooed" three times)

[HTTRDynasty]

1 hour ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

 

 

Honestly, I don't see how this doesn't concern people about both him and Maye (though Caleb is my first choice). Maye always folds at the end of the season, has not played a standout game against a good team. I get it, they didn't have a ton of help. Do people think the Texans have an elite roster offensively? Yet they still got to 10-7 and beat teams that were far more talented than them. Some of that is the coach but don't tell me that Stroud isn't responsible for Nico Collins and Tank Dell and Noah Brown having such great seasons - he elevated their play and the people around him. 

 

 

 

Edited January 11 by HTTRDynasty

[illone]

32 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

(My staff assignment this morning was to stir the pot and use the word "ballyhooed" three times)

 

 

😂

 

Busy offseason so far, eh? 

 

The irony

 

[Skinsinparadise]

46 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

None of the top three guys being ballyhooed this year are going to be any better than Trevor Lawrence, who was even more ballyhooed,  has been so far. Good, but not elite. All below the ballyhooed Justin Herbert, who also hasn't delivered. 

 

 

 

I've been dominant with the word ballyhooed for weeks.  You got a long way to catch up. 😎

[BBLXIX]

5 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

Fair enough. But let's all make sure to do all of Caleb Williams's's bad reads throws and games as well and ignore all the cupcake games. Yep I'll take those 9 TDs vs San Diego Community College and Nevada JV right off his ledger. I wish people would make tubes of a players worst plays as often as they do their best plays. 

 

I am surprised he lost 5 of his last 6 to close out his collegiate career but we'll just blame USCs defense and ignore why he didn't put the team on his back. For now. Not much rushing on the ledger heh a throwback era 1.4 yard average.

 

I'd focus on his very surprising lack of production in the middle of the year, and maybe those final 2 games, long and hard if I was a GM. What's the consensus explanation?

 

 

 

I think any GM is taking in the whole body of work, not just a stretch of games, not even just 1 season. To keep it simple on the consensus I think anyone with two functioning eyes would have to be more impressed with Williams than not. Also I'm pretty sure that graphic was debunked (I might search for the actual stats on Twitter when I have the time).

[Forehead]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I've been dominant with the word ballyhooed for weeks.  You got a long way to catch up. 😎

 

I didn't realize stirring things up was the order of the day.  I should have written my post further up the page as if I was completely serious.