Next Day Thread: Eagles Make Us Sad

[Thinking Skins]

7 minutes ago, Conn said:

JDR having a “top 10” D is a garbage stat. Rarely shows up against legit offenses, pads stats against bad teams. Misuses players. JDR deserving to be replaced isn’t some new knee-jerk sentiment, it’s just sinking in more for people in year four. Now that the offense can actually score points, the defense being a liability is becoming more clear to people who were on the fence before. JDR is a dinosaur with no imagination who relies on straight 1-on-1 matchup wins by his highly pedigreed DL to produce any opposing QB discomfort—and if those matchups can’t be won, that’s it. He does nothing schematically to create pressure or confusion. 

We play a bad team Thursday 

[Chris 44]

3 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

We could be 2-10 next year with the same coaching staff after doing nothing to help the team in the offseason and wit would still be defending them and making excuses.

Yeah but we would finish 7-10 with 5 straight wins. One more year the rallying cry!

3 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

Let's leave the whole drunk driving, stomping on women stuff out of our version of this tale, though.

But do we also get Taylor Swift?

[Conn]

26 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

We play a bad team Thursday 

But they have a mobile QB, so even odds JDR’s D looks like ass even against them. 
 

I look forward to having a good D that actually competes against good offenses. 

[Stihl89]

The “we can do worse” is arguably one of the worst arguments in sports. Especially in football when doing worse gets you closer to that one player that can get you out of the dumpster. Staying in the middle is the worst possible a place to be for a franchise. 

[Koolblue13]

Edited October 4, 2023 by Koolblue13

[IrepDC]

The only fault I find with those leaning into criticism about this regime is the lack of tangible examples of what can be done better. We complain about QB, but most of the QB prospects, including ones I've liked, have been underwhelming or outright failed, and/or require complete revisionist history. We complain about OL, but most FA olineman across the league haven't been successful. Maybe there are olineman we could have drafted, but I've yet to see someone give an example of a guy we didn't draft AND share evidence that the prospect is actually performing well (vs just throwing names out there). Now maybe those prospects exist, but the conversation here doesn't typically go that far to unpack the evidence. Similarly, those who oppose Rivera, who usually have merit behind their disapproval, rarely bring forward any coaches they believe in. If the conversation is simply Rivera vs Super Bowl Winning Coach, of course we would all pick Super Bowl Winning Coach, but who are we talking about? 

 

The majority of the debates have good merit on both sides. I would enjoy them better if we fleshed them out more vs simply throwing out hypothetical scenarios where our opinions are correct. Of course even with being specific, we are still projecting. But I have seen how in depth the posters here CAN be with their insights so I know it's possible in these discussions as well.

[RandyHolt]

2 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

We play a bad team Thursday 

We are a bad team. Weren't we projected to be last in our division?

 

Last year vs the Bears we needed a muffed punt late in the 4th to beat them 12-7.  It was Fields breakout game. He'll probably run circles around our DL when they finally do get past the 4 vs 5 wall once a quarter.

Edited October 4, 2023 by RandyHolt

[Koolblue13]

34 minutes ago, IrepDC said:

The only fault I find with those leaning into criticism about this regime is the lack of tangible examples of what can be done better. We complain about QB, but most of the QB prospects, including ones I've liked, have been underwhelming or outright failed, and/or require complete revisionist history. We complain about OL, but most FA olineman across the league haven't been successful. Maybe there are olineman we could have drafted, but I've yet to see someone give an example of a guy we didn't draft AND share evidence that the prospect is actually performing well (vs just throwing names out there). Now maybe those prospects exist, but the conversation here doesn't typically go that far to unpack the evidence. Similarly, those who oppose Rivera, who usually have merit behind their disapproval, rarely bring forward any coaches they believe in. If the conversation is simply Rivera vs Super Bowl Winning Coach, of course we would all pick Super Bowl Winning Coach, but who are we talking about? 

 

The majority of the debates have good merit on both sides. I would enjoy them better if we fleshed them out more vs simply throwing out hypothetical scenarios where our opinions are correct. Of course even with being specific, we are still projecting. But I have seen how in depth the posters here CAN be with their insights so I know it's possible in these discussions as well.

Sip, KDawg, DWinzit and myself have repeatedly addressed how things could have gone differently (Mauch over Quan, trade down in the first again last year to grab OL, taking Herbig over Daniel's, Pace whenever) and we said these things in real time as well.

[Skinsinparadise]

6 hours ago, redskinss said:

True but in Ron's mind maybe that's what he thought he was doing by bringing in 4 guys this off-season. 

Not every offensive line is made up of mostly blue chip talent especially back in the day.

 

 

This O line is dead last as to the lineup in draft pedigree as one study showed.  

 

I can let it go if it was like the Giants where Daboll inherited a garbage O line and hasn't fixed it in a year.  He's swinging but hasn't hit.  If this was apples to apples to that, I'd let it go because it would showcase a philosophy.     But this is the reverse of that.  Rivera took a good O line and tore it apart.

 

Ultimately I am looking for competence and execution of a philosophy.  But especially early on in a regime, I'll give Ron or whomever some rope for trying.  That's why I defended him initially as to QB.  He tried.  He failed but he tried.

 

If Ron kept his mouth shut and didn't explain to Sheehan why he didn't care for Herbert or Tua, I'd give him an out for passing over both players.  But alas he did explain why he wouldn't have taken either regardless of the status with Haskins. 

 

If Rivera didn't whine about the difference between his team and the rest of the NFC East was "QB".  I'd let that go too.  But it comes off tone deaf to me when arguably the best QB in the division was a player I got the impression that Ron had no interest in during that draft and didn't take him.  Conversely, I read a long article about how the Eagles were enamored with Hurts.  

 

Who they like ultimately gets revealed.  They did love Justin Fields who we will see tomorrow.  Apparently, they would have taken Mac Jones if he fell to their pick.  And they really dug Hendon Hooker in that last draft.

 

Hopefully Howell works out.  But leading up to that, I don't give Rivera an out.  If he kept his mouth shut I'd give him the benefit of the doubt but true to form he reveals how the sausage is made and it rarely makes him look good.

 

Bringing this back to the O line.  He inherited one of the better O lines in the league and one of the most pedigreed one draft status wise.  He turned it into one of the leagues worse and its the least pedigreed line in the league.  He shed major salary with getting rid of Trent, Scherff, and Moses.  And didn't put that salary back into the spot.   That to me is a philosophy.  And i don't endorse that philosophy that's all.    He also showed bad instincts at that spot passing over Darrisaw, Trey Smith for a struggiling long snapper, releasing Morgan Moses and other points we've beaten here to death.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[FootballZombie]

21 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Sip, KDawg, DWinzit and myself have repeatedly addressed how things could have gone differently (Mauch over Quan, trade down in the first again last year to grab OL, taking Herbig over Daniel's, Pace whenever) and we said these things in real time as well.

 

Some of us even pounded the table in real time for realistically obtainable pieces for relatively minor cost as well.

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

58 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Sip, KDawg, DWinzit and myself have repeatedly addressed how things could have gone differently (Mauch over Quan, trade down in the first again last year to grab OL, taking Herbig over Daniel's, Pace whenever) and we said these things in real time as well.

 

Yep, and I'd add no revisionist history needed at the QB spot, Ron explained why he wasn't into Herbert and Tua for example.  It's not some mystery.   

 

Ron has his faults but he's very transparent.  And I'll give him that he doesn't even seem to care if it makes him look good or bad -- when he starts talking he lets it all out.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[88Comrade2000]

After getting fired, Ron just couldn’t wait to be coach again and he found a desperate sucker in the former guy. The former guy gave Ron the keys to everything.   Ron is the ultimate decider; so if things don’t work out, he only has himself to blame.

 

Unless a fired coach has a long track of winning, they shouldn’t be able to get a new job right away.  Andy Reid earned an immediate shot after being fired by Eagles. Not sure Frank Reich earned an immediate shot in Carolina and Ron didn’t earn an immediate shot here.

 

 

 

If we make the playoffs, it will be a quick exit. Some will say we arrived and give Ron an extension. Ron’s more likely to fall on his face in 24 than a return to playoffs.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[MartinC]

7 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

Sticking to my guns. At 2-0 I predicted losing 6 straight. We are probably still terrible in prime time and chicago kind of rebounded anyways. There is not a snowballs chance in hell I can predict us beating Daniel Jones. Atlanta will be a tough out and BeeJohn will likely pull 150 200 on us as JDR has us in rush 3 drop 8 deep quarters vs a team that refuses to pass. If we see Taylor we will definitely lose. Revenge game.  Philly... yeah probably not. 

Sticking to my guns - I had us at 4-2 after 6. I still think what’s we will be. 
 

We are so close to being a good team that can really compete - at least for a playoff win.
 

Let’s assume new GM and coaching staff.
 

Sam continues to develop is key - he becomes a top half starting QB. Then we add a stud LT in the draft and move Leno to RT. We sign another quality interior OL in free agency. 
 

Draft/add a quality TE and 3rd down back with some jets. 
 

On D extend Sweat, replace Young and add a quality LB and FS. (With a DC who is creative and aggressive!)
 

That’s all doable in one offseason. 

[IrepDC]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Sip, KDawg, DWinzit and myself have repeatedly addressed how things could have gone differently (Mauch over Quan, trade down in the first again last year to grab OL, taking Herbig over Daniel's, Pace whenever) and we said these things in real time as well.

Cody Mauch has a 47 out of 100 grade so far, and I haven't found good reviews about his play this year, but I also haven't watched Tampa Bay much this year. Have you? Have you watched any of the prospects you've listed? Are they performing well?

 

 

[Redwards]

44 minutes ago, MartinC said:

Sticking to my guns - I had us at 4-2 after 6. I still think what’s we will be. 
 

We are so close to being a good team that can really compete - at least for a playoff win.
 

Let’s assume new GM and coaching staff.
 

Sam continues to develop is key - he becomes a top half starting QB. Then we add a stud LT in the draft and move Leno to RT. We sign another quality interior OL in free agency. 
 

Draft/add a quality TE and 3rd down back with some jets. 
 

On D extend Sweat, replace Young and add a quality LB and FS. (With a DC who is creative and aggressive!)
 

That’s all doable in one offseason. 

Sounds good...as long as it's a new FO regime and coaching staff, like you said.

 

AND...as long as Sweat's extension is in no way, shape or form a monster contract.  His play doesn't even come close to matching that.  If he gets a huge payday, it's going to cost us more than just dollars in the long run.  Would a great FO like the Eagles' do that?  No way.  We need to save the big dollars for those who TRULY deserve it, like Allen, Payne and Terry.

[MartinC]

34 minutes ago, Redwards said:

Sounds good...as long as it's a new FO regime and coaching staff, like you said.

 

AND...as long as Sweat's extension is in no way, shape or form a monster contract.  His play doesn't even come close to matching that.  If he gets a huge payday, it's going to cost us more than just dollars in the long run.  Would a great FO like the Eagles' do that?  No way.  We need to save the big dollars for those who TRULY deserve it, like Allen, Payne and Terry.

I certainly would not reset the market for Sweat. 

[88Comrade2000]

If Ron earns a return for 24, that’s all he gets. For me, I think anything short of a playoff win; should earn his dismissal.

To get an extension, he has to go further than he did in 23. At minimum, Ron has to earn back to back playoff appearances; to even get consideration.  He has this year and next left on his contract; let him show that he’s earned an extension.

 

 

Some are worried that changing head coaches means yet another oc for Sam. That could happen anyway if EB gets a head coaching gig. He came here only to help his pursuit of a head coaching gig.

 

One thing that absolutely must happen in 24; a new front office. Ron currently has that power. He must give that up and if he refuses; bye Ron, regardless of how he finishes. 

[KDawg]

9 hours ago, IrepDC said:

Cody Mauch has a 47 out of 100 grade so far, and I haven't found good reviews about his play this year, but I also haven't watched Tampa Bay much this year. Have you? Have you watched any of the prospects you've listed? Are they performing well?

 

 

I’ll tell you what I don’t do: look at “grades” for players to determine their worth. I’ve watched Mauch. I think he’d be a better asset to this team than Quan Martin. He’s been fine. Not out of this world good, but he’s been a solid player. 
 

Unfortunately we didn’t draft him very likely due to the fact that we signed Wylie to play RT and they moved Cosmi to RG. They clearly wanted Charles as the LG and were kind of locked into that. But they could have played Mauch at RG and Cosmi at RT and based on what I’ve seen our OL would be improved. 
 

We’ve discussed a lot of this stuff on repeat so it’s hard to want to repeat the same conversation 20 times for the people who missed it. I understand people can’t read every forum post ever created, but we absolutely have discussed with detail and nuance.

 

As far as Ivan Pace he was my 2nd LB in the class. 

[Skinsinparadise]

58 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I’ll tell you what I don’t do: look at “grades” for players to determine their worth. I’ve watched Mauch. I think he’d be a better asset to this team than Quan Martin. He’s been fine. Not out of this world good, but he’s been a solid player. 
 

Unfortunately we didn’t draft him very likely due to the fact that we signed Wylie to play RT and they moved Cosmi to RG. They clearly wanted Charles as the LG and were kind of locked into that. But they could have played Mauch at RG and Cosmi at RT and based on what I’ve seen our OL would be improved. 
 

We’ve discussed a lot of this stuff on repeat so it’s hard to want to repeat the same conversation 20 times for the people who missed it. I understand people can’t read every forum post ever created, but we absolutely have discussed with detail and nuance.

 

As far as Ivan Pace he was my 2nd LB in the class. 

 

Cody has a 73.1 PFF grade in pass blocking which I believe would be the 2nd highest grade on this team.  for whatever reason he's struggled in that scheme in run blocking so far even though as we know that was his niche in college, so I'd expect that to come together.

 

Jon Ledyard who covers the Bucs and is the favorite analyst from some of us on the draft thread...

 

 

 

[IrepDC]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

I’ll tell you what I don’t do: look at “grades” for players to determine their worth. I’ve watched Mauch. I think he’d be a better asset to this team than Quan Martin. He’s been fine. Not out of this world good, but he’s been a solid player. 
 

Unfortunately we didn’t draft him very likely due to the fact that we signed Wylie to play RT and they moved Cosmi to RG. They clearly wanted Charles as the LG and were kind of locked into that. But they could have played Mauch at RG and Cosmi at RT and based on what I’ve seen our OL would be improved. 
 

We’ve discussed a lot of this stuff on repeat so it’s hard to want to repeat the same conversation 20 times for the people who missed it. I understand people can’t read every forum post ever created, but we absolutely have discussed with detail and nuance.

 

As far as Ivan Pace he was my 2nd LB in the class. 

Film is always best for analysis, but as I admitted, I haven't watched much of Tampa Bay this year. Next I looked for articles about his play and ultimately landed on his graded performance. You'll rarely see me reference grades in my analysis so that's not really a battle to bring to me. There are many others who rely heavily on them.

 

If these things were already discussed, that's great. I typically do more reading than typing these days, other than GDT, so I should do more work to find those other posts. That's my fault for not getting fully caught up before giving input.

[Skinsinparadise]

Listening to Cooley on the defense.

 

A.  The D line should be feared but its not.  Offenses don't really change much to account for it.

 

B.  Doesn't think the chemistry between Jonathan Allen and Chase Young is good.  Chase is out of his gap too much, opens things up for the opponent.

 

C.  He's not high on the secondary or the LBs.  He doesn't like St. Juste in the slot, he likes him outside.   thinks Barton has been struggiling.

 

D.  The D line should get pressure with 4 but it just doesn't do it consistently for whatever reason.

 

Logan Paulsen on his podcast was higher on the defense and attributed the lack of pressure on Hurts to the Eagles stout offensive line 

[Warhead36]

Point A is an interesting one. You don't really see our ends get doubled. Young and Sweat are consistently blocked 1 on 1. The interior guys are doubled pretty consistently though I think.

 

I think the lack of pressure the past two weeks were more our guys focusing on contain instead of rushing because of the mobility of the QBs. I actually think we got some decent pressure on Allen at times but the guy is just a bull to bring down and then ripped off some big runs. We contained Hurts's rushing but unfortunately the secondary couldn't cover worth a darn.

[skinny21]

36 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Point A is an interesting one. You don't really see our ends get doubled. Young and Sweat are consistently blocked 1 on 1. The interior guys are doubled pretty consistently though I think.

 

I think the lack of pressure the past two weeks were more our guys focusing on contain instead of rushing because of the mobility of the QBs. I actually think we got some decent pressure on Allen at times but the guy is just a bull to bring down and then ripped off some big runs. We contained Hurts's rushing but unfortunately the secondary couldn't cover worth a darn.

I’m with you in thinking that playing contain has been a primary focus.  And I get the thinking, but I don’t like it.  Not only are you putting a governor on the dline (probably our strongest position group), but you’re giving the qb more time in the pocket and so putting more pressure on the back 7.  Sure, you’re dropping 7 into coverage (and trying to mix up/disguise that coverage), but I think that gets outweighed by not getting pressure faster.

 

SIP posted a clip of a blitz from a different team in which the DE looped, leaving a big gap between the G and T, but then they scraped a LB across the line to fill that gap.  The QB saw the gap, tried to run, and suddenly had the LB in their face.  To me, that’s the kind of thing we’re missing - the synergy that allows the DEs more freedom (and that can apply to DTs too).  

 

Of course, that’s not to say that other factors can’t still be a part of the soup - Young and Allen not working so well together, coverage breakdowns, etc.  I think we have the talent to get pressure with 4, so I differ with some that think Del Rio needs to be more aggressive via sending a lot more blitzes.  IMO, he needs to get more aggressive in figuring out how he can unleash the front 4 (which may include blitzing, but not necessarily).

Edited October 5, 2023 by skinny21

[Skinsinparadise]