Next Day Thread: Eagles Make Us Sad

[KDawg]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I can't think of anyone here who is so consistently pro status quo regime after regime.  And this leads to a point from me.

 

A.  You were one of the bigger Bruce Allen guys.  And defended most of what he did including the third round pick for Kirk as a job well done

 

B.  While you didn't like Snyder, you didn't think Dan Snyder's douche behavior and cheapness, bad facility, etc was a deterrent to attract players.

 

C.  You were pro Jay Gruden.  I was too to an extent, I think he had a better offensive mind that some gave him credit for. 

 

D.  Very pro everything Ron is doing.

 

The only dude you didn't like and wanted gone that I recall was Kirk Cousins.  And judging by your other posts I gather part of that was that he didn't want to be here -- considering for you "here" is a good place to be.  And hence didn't appreciate the mercenery behavior. 

 

I get having the back of whomever is running things.  I value consistency.  I am typically a glass half full guy.  I am usually more optimisitc than I should be about the season.  I usually predict 2 wins or so above what they end up winning.  This time, not so.  I am at 8-9.  But its still more optimisitc than the national media.   I did hate Bruce Allen and Dan Snyder so on that front I was very negative.

 

And heck if I was cool with Bruce Allen like you were, Ron Rivera in comparison is like Bobby Beathard in his prime on steroids.   He's smarter and way classier than Bruce.   So I get that from that context.  

 

But dude, we can shoot much higher.  We are so mired in this funk of 7-10 to 10-7 (using the 16 game model) and an occasional collapse and occasional playoff one and done appearance.  Ron absolutely can keep that streak alive.  Heck I think he even has it in him to pull of the Gibbs 2 feet -- 2 winning seasons in 4.  He hasn't done it yet.  But I do think he can pull off some B level seasons in the mix of some C seasons.  But my point is lets shoot higher than this dude.

 

I'll give you that you will take on any argument.  I'll throw this one at you.  The others who defend this regime have not responded to this every time I've thrown it at them.  What fan base would want Ron to be their Czar -- run their FO and coaching.  And if none, why? 

 

And if Ron has the goods it can play out organically.  Lets see it this season.  And I am not looking for a B level season.  A dude with three C's and a B isn't my high watermark for this franchise.  That would fit enough to the last 20 years or so.  I want better.  Get into the playoffs and win a game.  Ron seems bothered that others stress this is season 4 for him and is judged accordingly.  He shouldn't be bothered, heck yeah it matters that its season 4 for him.  How much of a buildup does the dude need?  He needs to do it now.

 

 

 

One thing I’ve picked up on wit is that he (as a poster!) tends to plays devils advocate. Always having some belief in the argument that they are presenting but not necessarily all in the way the posts read. 
 

I may be way off. But there is no way that someone is so consistent in their defense of the overall roster and organization (in their posts…) and tries to stay away from any negatives unless they are committed to finding the best out of any possible scenario.

 

having said that, I always see the logic in what he’s saying… even if I think it’s off base. I’m grateful that we have posters like you and wit to drive some discussion, otherwise this would be a colossal echo chamber.

 

I say all this to say…

 

wit is wrong

 

(in my opinion)

Edited October 4, 2023 by KDawg

[Koolblue13]

22 minutes ago, Captain James said:

This is where I've thought we'd be too. For a hot minute there it looked like we could have taken the first one from Philly. Hopefully we bring them to poundtown next time around at FedEx.

 

and people accuse me of really liking the Eagles. Yikes.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Koolblue13

[Conn]

20 minutes ago, Professor_Nutter_Butter said:

You get to 10, you put yourself in good position. 11 is just the cherry on top. 

We as a fanbase really need to take this mindset out back behind the shed and put it down. 

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

11 minutes ago, Conn said:

We as a fanbase really need to take this mindset out back behind the shed and put it down. 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

41 minutes ago, KDawg said:

One thing I’ve picked up on wit is that he (as a poster!) tends to plays devils advocate. Always having some belief in the argument that they are presenting but not necessarily all in the way the posts read. 
 

I may be way off. But there is no way that someone is so consistent in their defense of the overall roster and organization (in their posts…) and tries to stay away from any negatives unless they are committed to finding the best out of any possible scenario.

 

having said that, I always see the logic in what he’s saying… even if I think it’s off base. I’m grateful that we have posters like you and wit to drive some discussion, otherwise this would be a colossal echo chamber.

 

I say all this to say…

 

wit is wrong

 

(in my opinion)

 

He's definietly the contrarian even in the mix of people who agree with his macro take. 

 

For example, he's the only anti-Kirk person that I can recall who also thought Bruce Allen did good in getting that third round comp pick for him.  Also among the O line is good enough group -- he and just one other that I noticed are the ones who actually downplay the value of dedicating resources to the O line.

 

While some were frustrated about Dan and how his shenanigans effected attracting talent here -- right down to Shanny telling Chris Russell they'd take FA players at times right to a restaurant without showing them the facilities because he felt it would hurt their ability to get said player -- @wit33 thinks that stuff is nonsense and players don't give a rats behind about owners scandals, bad facilities, etc.   He's unique to that take, too.

 

But to your point the consistency is there from him.  If you have a stay the course mindset with the Bruce Allen-Jay regime -- why wouldn't you also back Ron considering Ron for his faults is superior IMO to that previous regime.

 

And you are right, if we didn't have people defending the status quo, it would be indeed more boring.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[redskinss]

48 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

And you are right, if we didn't have people defending the status quo, it would be indeed more boring

Like myself, 😁

 

I see Rivera's faults and I know we can do better but I also know we could do worse.

 

Everybody is so enamored with the prospect of getting the next Howie Roseman and Kyle Shanahan they're ignoring the fact that we could get the next matt Millen and Matt efferbluss.

 

And while judging Riveras moves against what he could have done for the better they're also ignoring what he or someone else could have done for the worse.

 

It's a natural thing to do as a fanbase, to look at what might have been and get discouraged but that's a double edged sword, you can also look at what might have been and be encouraged. 

 

When evaluating Rivera I'm not comparing him to the elite in the NFL I'm comparing him to every coach we've had over the last 30 years, overall roster construction, chemistry and professionalism etc and when I do that I'm reasonably satisfied with where we are at as a team right now.

 

I, like everyone else am very hungry for more but am taking a more patient approach to riveras old school team building concepts.

As has been said many times the problems we are having right now are very correctable and with Howell emerging and a defense that is underperforming this team has a chance to make a little noise.

 

If we collapse, I agree total change is needed, if for nothing else than to just completely cleanse ourselves of all things Snyder but if we can get into the playoffs  I'd like to give this regime at least one more year to see if they can get over the hump.

 

There will be plenty of time for this new ownership group to make radical changes it's not going anywhere Any time soon.

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

38 minutes ago, redskinss said:

 

 

I see Rivera's faults and I know we can do better but I also know we could do worse.

 

 

Sure, but that's not the mindset to win a championship.  Some might forget that Sean McVay was considered a risky hire at the time.   More so with Mike McDaniel.   He was a nerdy nontraditional coach.  I wondered about him myself.  I argued it as a boom-bust hire.  I didn't buy in right away.  So I get your hesitate mindset.  But it certainly looks like a boom.   

 

I am very familiar with the Dolphins journey.  It's been like ours mediocre with bouts of bad and occasional good seasons.   Now that team looks like a juggernaut with a step on the gas regime.

 

I am not afraid of sucking.  I am afraid of being stuck in the middle -- where you aren't bad enough to get transformative players while not good enough to threaten making a SB.

 

38 minutes ago, redskinss said:

 

 

Everybody is so enamored with the prospect of getting the next Howie Roseman and Kyle Shanahan they're ignoring the fact that we could get the next matt Millen and Matt efferbluss.

 

 

 

We finally got rid of the roadblock to hiring a top GM.  Dan wanted to be the defacto GM.  Now that he's gone we don't want to take a swing for one?  It would be like some dude who is 300 pounds, works out, loses 120 pounds, and says he's still afraid to ask that good looking girl out because it might go wrong.  You've lost the pounds, carpe diem, don't play it scared.

 

38 minutes ago, redskinss said:

 

When evaluating Rivera I'm not comparing him to the elite in the NFL I'm comparing him to every coach we've had over the last 30 years, overall roster construction, chemistry and professionalism etc and when I do that I'm reasonably satisfied with where we are at as a team right now.

 

 

Why?  Dan is gone.  We don't have to judge him based on a low bar like that.  Everything has changed.  

 

38 minutes ago, redskinss said:

 

I, like everyone else am very hungry for more but am taking a more patient approach to riveras old school team building concepts.

 

 

Old school involves building BOTH trenches.  That's why Ron lost me.  I defended Ron a zillion times for the first three years, I thought he'd go to town on the trenches this year.  He didn't. 

 

38 minutes ago, redskinss said:

 

As has been said many times the problems we are having right now are very correctable and with Howell emerging and a defense that is underperforming this team has a chance to make a little noise.

 

 

If it happens great.  Like I said Ron can organically resolve his fate.  But when he alludes to recently being annoyed that people are holding him to the idea that this is year 4 -- suggesting he deserves a clean slate -- he gets no clean slate from me.  This is year 4, win.  He said last year in year 3 its the must win season.  Now, he's annoyed that people expect it in year 4.  I like Ron but he has an odd sense of entitlement here.  I suspect that's what happens when ANY head coach is given too much power.

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Thinking Skins]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I can't think of anyone here who is so consistently pro status quo regime after regime.  And this leads to a point from me.

 

A.  You were one of the bigger Bruce Allen guys.  And defended most of what he did including the third round pick for Kirk as a job well done

 

B.  While you didn't like Snyder, you didn't think Dan Snyder's douche behavior and cheapness, bad facility, etc was a deterrent to attract players.

 

C.  You were pro Jay Gruden.  I was too to an extent, I think he had a better offensive mind that some gave him credit for. 

 

D.  Very pro everything Ron is doing.

 

The only dude you didn't like and wanted gone that I recall was Kirk Cousins.  And judging by your other posts I gather part of that was that he didn't want to be here -- considering for you "here" is a good place to be.  And hence didn't appreciate the mercenery behavior. 

 

I get having the back of whomever is running things.  I value consistency.  I am typically a glass half full guy.  I am usually more optimisitc than I should be about the season.  I usually predict 2 wins or so above what they end up winning.  This time, not so.  I am at 8-9.  But its still more optimisitc than the national media.   I did hate Bruce Allen and Dan Snyder so on that front I was very negative.

 

And heck if I was cool with Bruce Allen like you were, Ron Rivera in comparison is like Bobby Beathard in his prime on steroids.   He's smarter and way classier than Bruce.   So I get that from that context.  

 

But dude, we can shoot much higher.  We are so mired in this funk of 7-10 to 10-7 (using the 16 game model) and an occasional collapse and occasional playoff one and done appearance.  Ron absolutely can keep that streak alive.  Heck I think he even has it in him to pull of the Gibbs 2 feet -- 2 winning seasons in 4.  He hasn't done it yet.  But I do think he can pull off some B level seasons in the mix of some C seasons.  But my point is lets shoot higher than this dude.

 

I'll give you that you will take on any argument.  I'll throw this one at you.  The others who defend this regime have not responded to this every time I've thrown it at them.  What fan base would want Ron to be their Czar -- run their FO and coaching.  And if none, why? 

 

And if Ron has the goods it can play out organically.  Lets see it this season.  And I am not looking for a B level season.  A dude with three C's and a B isn't my high watermark for this franchise.  That would fit enough to the last 20 years or so.  I want better.  Get into the playoffs and win a game.  Ron seems bothered that others stress this is season 4 for him and is judged accordingly.  He shouldn't be bothered, heck yeah it matters that its season 4 for him.  How much of a buildup does the dude need?  He needs to do it now.

 

 

 

 

That's the problem with this place. There is the obvious takes stuff that everybody will agree with like "we need more first round picks to hit" well duh. But I was in a disucssion with Craig Hoffman on Twitter this morning about just that (talking about a segment on his radio show last night) saying that it was an argument looking for a point because we may have hit on a 5th rounder, at QB. 

 

I'm not going to go into the details of that discussion here because i don't want to derail this thread but I feel like we get into too much of an ecochamber as @KDawg kinda called it. And while I have the rep as the "low round QB" guy its its not a hill I'm going to die on (see Dwayne Haskins/Ramsey/Campbell). Thing is many of us DC sports fans are hurt and broken by losing franchises and seeing owners like Abe Pollin who won't fire a coach seemingly ever, seems to have broken us to ALWAYS want to call for firing everybody at every occasion. So at every occasion there seems to be a discussion on who to fire next (there were calls to fire JDR on BMitch and JP's show on Monday). He had a top 10 defense last year. 

 

Its not that I don't believe the positions I post. Its more that I try to find the elements that I believe. Going back to BMitch and JP, where they have the Blame Pie, suppose we have a "believe pie". 50-75% Would be stuff that people on here seem to agree on most of the time. 10-15% are some answers that will be wrong in hindsight, and fans should see right now but still preach because they want to believe.

 

And I'm looking for those last 20-40 % of things to discuss that are potentially factually true, can lead to discussion, and are not just me preaching the same old song. Its not easy and sometimes leads me to defending guys like CJ Beathard more than I should, but I thought he had potential. Same with Brett Rypien and Nick Mullens. 

[redskinss]

56 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Old school involves building BOTH trenches.  That's why Ron lost me.  I defended Ron a zillion times for the first three years, I thought he'd go to town on the trenches this year.  He didn't

True but in Ron's mind maybe that's what he thought he was doing by bringing in 4 guys this off-season. 

Not every offensive line is made up of mostly blue chip talent especially back in the day.

The Hogs were mostly all late round picks and lower end free agents who fit the system. 

His offensive lines in Carolina were pretty good and notorious for having guys that were late round or undrafted and develop, its his m.o. when it comes to offensive lines.

That's the old school mentality. 

I'm not saying it's the right approach just that it can be considered old school.

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Sure, but that's not the mindset to win a championship. 

That's true, but I still see a possibility where patience before the change could payoff.

I also see a scenario where disaster strikes for the rest of this season and a change is necessary I'm just not as resolute in that certainty as most here.

[wit33]

7 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Not so much against Howell, but that he's the problem, not the O line.  Just read the Howell thread among other places the previous week.  Some couched it saying its on Howell but hey he's a young QB so you'd expect that.  Some couched it by saying Ron shouldn't have put his 4th year on Howell because these struggles will happen, etc.  Same people claim that the O line is fine and claimed that beforehand.

 

Yes, I believe with a good to great Oline Howell would still at this point be sacked at a high rate. Granted, not at the historic rate he’s on pace for now. Super pumped in regards to his ability it seems to reflect, take responsibility, and work to improve. 
 

The Oline has assisted the offense with an ability to function: stay on schedule, establish/take back momentum, rhythm/flow and avoid backbreaking penalties at a high rate. 
 

Through 4 games the Oline has 2 false starts and 4 holding calls to date. False starts is challenging for league low and holding calls are bout average.  Penalties for me are the biggest deterrents, the other stuff can be combated with a magician in the pocket and can your OC win the day scheming up stuff. 

 

7 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

The O line has been terrific.  Every team that they've played have had their best game of the season against this O line.  That's not hyperbole but fact.  But your comments help make my point thanks.

 

 

 

 

If you told both groups (O line is an issue, O line isn't an issue) before the season that we'd be on an historic pace for giving up sacks and pressures.   I think even the pro-O line group would be say heck of course we were wrong.  The fact that this is even a debate requires some incredible mental acrobatics from the pro O line group. 
 

 

I think you’ve become fixated on one part of the offense (using a magnifying glass) and failing to see the whole picture. Remove the magnifying glass my man lol 

 

Great things are happening on offense we’ve only experienced with Kirk/Jackson/Reed/Garçon, RG3/Morris/Garçon/Moss/Hankerson, and Brad/Davis/Westbrook/Connel. 
 

A lot of season to go, but I can get used to scoring 30 points. Hope it continues!

 

7 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

It would be like me arguing that a QB isn't turnover prone.  See that QB not only lead the league in picks but is poised to set a record doing that and then I'd argue that I was right all along and this dude isn't really turnover prone or at least its debatable.  I'd look silly doing that.  That's my analogy to this.  If people want to argue its bad but it could get better -- that's fine.  But to argue it hasn't been bad so far is really wild to me.   

 

I get people wanting to look right.  But my take is who gives a rats behind about that.  We are all right about some things and wrong about others.  I don't get why its hard to admit when you are wrong.  There is nothing the O liine has done, at least nothing yet, to show hey we had nothing to worry about this off season.

 

It requires not focusing on just the sack number to arrive at a place that the Oline has been okay.
 

The Oline is dependent on the QB and scheme a great deal. The QB throwing interceptions is largely responsible for that on their own. Even the INT stat would give me pause if I were drawing some sort of conclusion: how many were tipped, end of half or game heaves, WR running incorrect route, game situation—being aggressive due to being down. 

 

7 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

You got a unique take among the O line defenders.  Part of your point has centered on the O line not being that important.  I don't get that but at least you are consistent.  Eagles are dummies among other teams for emphasizing the spot?  Logan Paulsen on his podcast for example defended our defensive line for not bringing much pressure on Hurts by saying do you realize how good that offensive line is so in that context they did well? 
 

 

Nope.

 

As you often like to do, you’re attempting to put me in an extreme position to bolster your own. The trenches have immense value in my book and believe the playoffs often highlight strengths and weaknesses in the trenches. 

 

Im all about investing major resources at Oline, but prefer it to be draft capital. I have ZERO interest in signing above to good Olineman for north of 10% of your cap. Very much dislike signing average, above average or good for elite dollars in the open market. I’m up for overpaying for homegrown talent with idea there’s scheme fit and high intangibles.
 

Sign scheme fits or guys with good reputations for minimal dollars without any real long term consequences. Must remain lean when working with the average. 
 

If Washington landed on a potentially elite Oline homegrown much like the Dline, I’d entertain going all in those dudes in an attempt dip toe in elite status. I want elite and will pay elite. 
 

 

7 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

So how about having a unit that can mitigate a ferocious D line like ours?  Yawn?  Of course the QB is most important.  But when you have a young QB especially, you can't have him get hit 100 times a season, they might not last that way.  Imagine Howell with a wall protecting him like Hurts.  
 

 

Yes, many highlight rule changes for defenses taking a step back, I believe a great deal of it has to do with QBs having the ability and being empowered to extend, create and play backyard football. Chiefs and Bills Oline lose many reps that result in big plays, due to Mahomes and Allen playing backyard football. 
 

Side point, I believe the key for a defense is to completely suffocate and eliminate the run game, then you have a chance to become dominant. I’d want my D coordinator and organization to celebrate and reward TFLs in the run game the same as sacks. Must obliterate the run game, then you have a chance against even the elite QBs. This actually happens in the playoffs often. 
 

 

7 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

You'll keep waiting on the O line as a unit.  As for the offense I've posted plenty.  I'd have to be top 5 as posting pro Howell stuff here including having his back after the Buffalo game.  I was one of the more positive people on the Bieineimy hire and I've praised both plenty.

 

You may have been positive in regards to EB, but failed to give any credit as to Ron providing support to Howell. EB to date, is one of the biggest free agent acquisitions in the NFL. His fingerprints are all over the development of maybe the next franchise QB in Washington. This was happening while you were celebrating the signings of other teams: WAller and Juwan Taylor and mentions of other bum Olineman  

7 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Even Ron said early in the off season, the best thing you can do for a young QB is to protect him.  But considering you don't think the O line is a big deal, those words whether he stuck to them or not I gather won't resonate with you.  He has taken 5 out of 7 of his first and 2nd round picks in hs tenure for defense.  He doubled down on it this draft.  Didn't take a TE in one of the most TE rich drafts we've ever seen.  And that position is already looking thin.

 

I can’t breakdown Ron’s philosophy relating to Oline, but like he seems to value development and rewarding guys if warranted. He also has displayed a willingness to hunt outside the organization to find what he and staff determine to be scheme and culture fits. 
 

Where I do seem to align with Ron is developing and rewarding guys within and remaining lean with signing guys in the outside market. 

 

7 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Your argument helps make my point.   The idea that he didn't release his one veteran TE isn't some badge of honor to me.  So using your math, then 6 out of ten isn't offense.  This isn't the 1980s anymore.  Heck going back to Logan Paulsen who by a mile is Ron's biggest defender, i don't blame him considering he works for him, said the other day, something plenty of us say, defense doesn't win games for you in this decade, a good defense can contain to an extent a good offense but can't stop it or rarely does.  He used that to defend the defense's performance against the Eagles prolific offense.

It’s not that linear, you must adapt with the talent on your roster. The talent leaned towards the defense, so he decided to give Jack the resources and go all in on that side of the ball. I value going all in and riding with it. Forget what other teams have done or what percentage you should assign this or that position group. Focus on your team and what will work best for that team. 
 

Keeping Thomas and Samuel doesn’t need to be a badge of honor, but should be acknowledged as supporting Howell. Easily can argue Thomas having more value than WAller (your off-season gem) or Samuel over Paris Campbell or Hyatt. 
 

It’s not to say you’re right or wrong in how a team should do things, but you’re wrong to say Ron didn’t support Howell. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by wit33

[RandyHolt]

Sticking to my guns. At 2-0 I predicted losing 6 straight. We are probably still terrible in prime time and chicago kind of rebounded anyways. There is not a snowballs chance in hell I can predict us beating Daniel Jones. Atlanta will be a tough out and BeeJohn will likely pull 150 200 on us as JDR has us in rush 3 drop 8 deep quarters vs a team that refuses to pass. If we see Taylor we will definitely lose. Revenge game.  Philly... yeah probably not. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by RandyHolt

[Skinsinparadise]

50 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

That's the problem with this place. There is the obvious takes stuff that everybody will agree with like "we need more first round picks to hit" well duh. But I was in a disucssion with Craig Hoffman on Twitter this morning about just that (talking about a segment on his radio show last night) saying that it was an argument looking for a point because we may have hit on a 5th rounder, at QB. 

 

I'm not going to go into the details of that discussion here because i don't want to derail this thread but I feel like we get into too much of an ecochamber as @KDawg kinda called it. And while I have the rep as the "low round QB" guy its its not a hill I'm going to die on (see Dwayne Haskins/Ramsey/Campbell). Thing is many of us DC sports fans are hurt and broken by losing franchises and seeing owners like Abe Pollin who won't fire a coach seemingly ever, seems to have broken us to ALWAYS want to call for firing everybody at every occasion. So at every occasion there seems to be a discussion on who to fire next (there were calls to fire JDR on BMitch and JP's show on Monday). He had a top 10 defense last year. 

 

Its not that I don't believe the positions I post. Its more that I try to find the elements that I believe. Going back to BMitch and JP, where they have the Blame Pie, suppose we have a "believe pie". 50-75% Would be stuff that people on here seem to agree on most of the time. 10-15% are some answers that will be wrong in hindsight, and fans should see right now but still preach because they want to believe.

 

And I'm looking for those last 20-40 % of things to discuss that are potentially factually true, can lead to discussion, and are not just me preaching the same old song. Its not easy and sometimes leads me to defending guys like CJ Beathard more than I should, but I thought he had potential. Same with Brett Rypien and Nick Mullens. 

 

As I've mentioned to you before.  Especially among the Bruce Allen defenders in that FO thread at the time -- you were uber polite and uniquely so.  And it was a heated thread on both sides.  I got heated at times too, so I gave and still give you props for keeping your cool.  I try to keep my cool but sometimes the sarcasm flows from me. . It was nothing personal from me at all.  all the venom-sarcasm was driven by my hatred for Bruce and much more so Dan.  I grew up seeing this team as a model franchise for winning, smarts and class.  And it was turned into a zoo.

 

In everyone's defense its hard to be fan of this team.  We endure a lot of crap, dysfunction and losing.   I have other sports team that I love and no other team has given me this level of misery as this team.  And i believe we all deserve better.  

 

As to bringing that to today.  The way it feels to me is you got a minority of people who want to ride this with Ron -- give him more time, lets go with continuity, he's better than past coaches, etc.   @redskinss brought the point home I thought by saying he doesn't want this team to suck -- and it might if we rock the boat.  Maybe another Zorn as HC.  Another Bruce or Cerrato as GM, etc.  The more conservative way to do this is keep playing this hand, etc.

 

Then I think you got a group of people who want to swing for the fences.  That is shoot for a SB, not 10-7.  Not saying others don't want a SB but I get the vibe that even a winning season is enough to make them satisfied.  And we are willing to take some bumps in the road to get the SB if that's what it takes.  I am big fan of much of what I've read about Josh Harris who swings for the best of the best for everything. 

 

You got to admit even when you were supporting Bruce you weren't thinking he's the best of the best at his job.    Bruce to me is the symptom of the disease which is accepting that we don't drink champagne but we drink cheap white wine and heck there are some cheap white wines that are better than others, so lets discuss the topic under that context.  I think some of us are sick of the cheap white wine and want to drink champagne.  And Harris' reputation is to shop in the champagne aisle at the liquor store.    Since we finally have an owner who is willing to shop for champagne as far as top level front office people -- lets play that hand versus being mired in more discussion about cheap white wine.  Ron wouldn't be an acceptable Czar for any other organization -- running both the FO and being the HC.  So why do we need to think lower than the rest of the league?  Dan is gone.

 

I take pride for changing my mind and not being stuck on an opinion.  If I am wrong, I'll say i am wrong.  If i change my mind, I'll say I changed my mind and why.  On Ron, i am very much like that dude from Riggo Rag who posted the same point -- he had Ron's back until this off season when it hit him that Ron has a ceiling and the ceiling is not high enough.   Plenty of others here who have given Ron a hard time for this off season ala @KDawg, @Koolblue13 have had Ron's back plenty.  It's not its just being negative to be negative.  It's been mostly the opposite of that.  Positive posts.  But there is a limit to that.  If data points change -- my opinion changes it with it.  It's not the first time for me and it won't be the last. 

 

We can ultimately be sailing on a luxury cruise.  Lets shoot for that.  

Edited October 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

We could be 2-10 next year with the same coaching staff after doing nothing to help the team in the offseason and wit would still be defending them and making excuses.

[wit33]

8 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

We could be 2-10 next year with the same coaching staff after doing nothing to help the team in the offseason and wit would still be defending them and making excuses.

Out on Ron if they don’t make playoffs. Playoffs or bust unfortunately. I dislike putting it all on one year due to winning or losing in the NFL often being fraudulent and fleeting in most cases. This is the case for teams without an elite QB. 
 

Side tangent: Always fascinating to see fans compare one organization with an elite QB to another without lol. They’ll literally watch the elite QB on prime time bail out the team again and again, then compare Olineman. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by wit33

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Out on Ron if they don’t make playoffs. Playoffs or bust unfortunately. I dislike putting it all on one year due to winning or losing in the NFL often being fraudulent and fleeting in most cases. This is the case for teams without an elite QB. 
 

Side tangent: Always fascinating to see fans compare one organization with an elite QB to another without lol. They’ll literally watch the elite QB on prime time bail out the team again and again, then compare Olineman. 

Agree. All these teams that don’t have a Sam Howell are at a significant disadvantage. We could be suffering with someone like Patrick Mahomes. Can you imagine how bad the mood would be around here if we didn’t have Sammy Howitzer?

[wit33]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

Agree. All these teams that don’t have a Sam Howell are at a significant disadvantage. We could be suffering with someone like Patrick Mahomes. Can you imagine how bad the mood would be around here if we didn’t have Sammy Howitzer?

Exactly! 
 

Soon Washington will be able to trade away hall of fame Wrs, have their DT hold out and not play game 1, off field issues (coaches son and Hunt) sign Juwan Taylor for gobs of money and play horribly and it not matter. 
 

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by wit33

[Thinking Skins]

34 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

As I've mentioned to you before.  Especially among the Bruce Allen defenders in that FO thread at the time -- you were uber polite and uniquely so.  And it was a heated thread on both sides.  I got heated at times too, so I gave and still give you props for keeping your cool.  I try to keep my cool but sometimes the sarcasm flows from me. . It was nothing personal from me at all.  all the venom-sarcasm was driven by my hatred for Bruce and much more so Dan.  I grew up seeing this team as a model franchise for winning, smarts and class.  And it was turned into a zoo.

 

In everyone's defense its hard to be fan of this team.  We endure a lot of crap, dysfunction and losing.   I have other sports team that I love and no other team has given me this level of misery as this team.  And i believe we all deserve better.  

 

As to bringing that to today.  The way it feels to me is you got a minority of people who want to ride this with Ron -- give him more time, lets go with continuity, he's better than past coaches, etc.   @redskinss brought the point home I thought by saying he doesn't want this team to suck -- and it might if we rock the boat.  Maybe another Zorn as HC.  Another Bruce or Cerrato as GM, etc.  The more conservative way to do this is keep playing this hand, etc.

 

Then I think you got a group of people who want to swing for the fences.  That is shoot for a SB, not 10-7.  Not saying others don't want a SB but I get the vibe that even a winning season is enough to make them satisfied.  And we are willing to take some bumps in the road to get the SB if that's what it takes.  I am big fan of much of what I've read about Josh Harris who swings for the best of the best for everything. 

 

You got to admit even when you were supporting Bruce you weren't thinking he's the best of the best at his job.    Bruce to me is the symptom of the disease which is accepting that we don't drink champagne but we drink cheap white wine and heck there are some cheap white wines that are better than others, so lets discuss the topic under that context.  I think some of us are sick of the cheap white wine and want to drink champagne.  And Harris' reputation is to shop in the champagne aisle at the liquor store.    Since we finally have an owner who is willing to shop for champagne as far as top level front office people -- lets play that hand versus being mired in more discussion about cheap white wine.  Ron wouldn't be an acceptable Czar for any other organization -- running both the FO and being the HC.  So why do we need to think lower than the rest of the league?  Dan is gone.

 

I take pride for changing my mind and not being stuck on an opinion.  If I am wrong, I'll say i am wrong.  If i change my mind, I'll say I changed my mind and why.  On Ron, i am very much like that dude from Riggo Rag who posted the same point -- he had Ron's back until this off season when it hit him that Ron has a ceiling and the ceiling is not high enough.   Plenty of others here who have given Ron a hard time for this off season ala @KDawg, @Koolblue13 have had Ron's back plenty.  It's not its just being negativity.  It's been mostly the opposite of that.  Positive posts.  But there is a limit to that.  If data points change -- my opinion changes it with it.  It's not the first time for me and it won't be the last. 

I appreciate that. You @Bang and maybe a few others have told me that and I do appreciate it. I have been here for a long LONG time and its gotten me through some hard times. I'm not talking about the team right now, I'm talking about this message board. For the most part I've enjoyed watching the team my whole life. I'm old enough to have lived through the three SBs (although I can't remember the first), but my childhood is filled with those memories and those stories and those debates and those arguments about Gary Clary vs Art Monk or Gary Clark vs Jerry Rice or whoever you wanted to debate from the 80s. I hated the team then because we didn't have enough big name players and we're seeing it now in the HOF debates. Thing about it was that the message board seemed to bring that back. 

 

There are times when it becomes maybe too much, or I have nothing to add. Maybe after the Buffalo loss and its hard to be positive. Sometimes people in these threads aren't as positive, especially when I'm taking a contrary to the public opinion (like defending Bruce). And sometimes (unlike when I was younger), life just gets in the way. 

 

But yeah, I do make an extra effort to make sure I'm positive or at least not offending the person I'm communicating with. And I appreciate you acknowledging that, 

 

 

 

Onto the topic at hand though. You're doing a good thing in calling Ron the inexpensive wine, but I think what you may be doing is selling him short. I'm not a Ron guy or a anti-Ron guy. I posted somewhere back that I had a philosophy that I thought coaches should get 3 years to prove themselves. Ron has gotten that, so his time is pretty much up looking at it that way. But we seem to have found a QB and OC who are gelling right now. 

 

So the question I have and its kinda ties into the analogy, supposing that EB/Howell can lead this train to 11/12 wins (I know impossible), you'd have to give Rom the keys to the train again for next year right? But what about an extension? What if he wins 9 or 10 wins? 

 

The only thing that I don't want is Howell learning a third offense in three years and having the Campbell/Alex Smith thing going on where he can't get comfortable in an offense. One thing I think he's doing (not saying he has to but he is doing it) is taking the bullets for EB (and JDR but JRD can take them himself). Lets get this clear, Ron is NOT GOOD at press conferences. But he is doing them instead of EB and JDR so that they can focus on doing the real work of getting ready for the next opponent. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Thinking Skins

[KDawg]

Just now, wit33 said:

Exactly! 
 

Soon Washington will be able to trade away hall of fame Wrs, have their DT hold out and not play game 1, the coaches son on staff be involved in a drunk driving incident killing someone, their starting RB stomp someone (I believe a woman) out on video, sign Juwan Taylor for gobs of money and play horribly and it not matter. 
 

 

 

Let's leave the whole drunk driving, stomping on women stuff out of our version of this tale, though.

[Darrell Green Fan]

On 10/3/2023 at 9:02 AM, UK Skins said:

 

Sorry for the repost but I didn't get a single response 😢 and would really like to know what they were talking about. Perhaps some of our analysts have an idea. It's not just the bad snaps from the way it was phrased.

Not sure why you continue to be ignored but I'll respond by saying that comment surprised me as well.  I don't recall too many big returns against them, or blocked kicks.  We were all watching the long snapper, and I will never understand cutting a perfectly fine long snapper to trade up in the draft to select another one. But he didn't really have too many bad snaps, at least on kicks can't remember the punt snaps but I'd only remember them if they were bad.  

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Ron had has reasons as he explained for why he didn't care for Herbert and Tua.  He wasn't from what's been revealed interested in Hurts.

 

He did like Hendon Hooker apparently.  Was willing to trade for Stafford, Kirk, Russell Wilson, Derek Carr, Matt Ryan (in 2022 not 2023).  

 

He said he looked at the anaytics himself when falling for Wentz and according to most traded way more than what anyone expected the Colts to get.

 

Someone explain to me like I am 5 why Ron deserves a pass for anything QB related as if he's at the mercy of some circumstances out of his control.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

Onto the topic at hand though. You're doing a good thing in calling Ron the inexpensive wine, but I think what you may be doing is selling him short. I'm not a Ron guy or a anti-Ron guy. I posted somewhere back that I had a philosophy that I thought coaches should get 3 years to prove themselves. Ron has gotten that, so his time is pretty much up looking at it that way. But we seem to have found a QB and OC who are gelling right now. 

 

So the question I have and its kinda ties into the analogy, supposing that EB/Howell can lead this train to 11/12 wins (I know impossible), you'd have to give Rom the keys to the train again for next year right? But what about an extension? What if he wins 9 or 10 wins? 

 

The only thing that I don't want is Howell learning a third offense in three years and having the Campbell/Alex Smith thing going on where he can't get comfortable in an offense. One thing I think he's doing (not saying he has to but he is doing it) is taking the bullets for EB (and JDR but JRD can take them himself). Lets get this clear, Ron is NOT GOOD at press conferences. But he is doing them instead of EB and JDR so that they can focus on doing the real work of getting ready for the next opponent. 

 

You might not like the metaphor but your summary is still similar to mine.  I was trying to explain he's on the upper end of the wine in that genre.  But the point I was making is he's nothing special.

 

Ron is like a $20 bottle of wine IMO.  Decent but nothing remarkable.  But better than the $6 bottle of wine that was Vinny or Cerrato.

 

There isn't a single fan base i'd wager who would even entertain the idea of Ron being in charge of their FO-personnel.  Dan had no choice otherwise he likely wouldn't have come here. 

 

If he wins 11-12 games, he can have whatever he wants in my book.  If he wins 10 and wins a game in the playoffs, i wouldn't extend him with personnel control but if he wants to be coach, that's cool.  Anything less than that, IMO he should be fired.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

Side tangent: Always fascinating to see fans compare one organization with an elite QB to another without lol. They’ll literally watch the elite QB on prime time bail out the team again and again, then compare Olineman. 

 

True.  But when he both shops for the groceries and also coaches, he can't complain about personnel even QB.   Denver media said about Mike Shanahan when he coached that team -- the GM Shanahan got coach Shanahan fired.  That analogy works here, too.  When you control everything, everything is on you.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

Yes, I believe with a good to great Oline Howell would still at this point be sacked at a high rate. Granted, not at the historic rate he’s on pace for now. Super pumped in regards to his ability it seems to reflect, take responsibility, and work to improve. 
 

The Oline has assisted the offense with an ability to function: stay on schedule, establish/take back momentum, rhythm/flow and avoid backbreaking penalties at a high rate. 
 

Through 4 games the Oline has 2 false starts and 4 holding calls to date. False starts is challenging for league low and holding calls are bout average.  Penalties for me are the biggest deterrents, the other stuff can be combated with a magician in the pocket and can your OC win the day scheming up stuff. 

 

 

 

So the O line has it cooking.  Lets agree to disagree.  IMO its not even close.

 

3 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

I think you’ve become fixated on one part of the offense (using a magnifying glass) and failing to see the whole picture. Remove the magnifying glass my man lol 

 

 

I got this off beat theory that the offensive line affects the whole offense.  But if you are telling me otherwise.  Cool.  lets agree to disagree on that, too.

 

3 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

Great things are happening on offense we’ve only experienced with Kirk/Jackson/Reed/Garçon, RG3/Morris/Garçon/Moss/Hankerson, and Brad/Davis/Westbrook/Connel. 
 

A lot of season to go, but I can get used to scoring 30 points. Hope it continues!

 

 

 

A lot of wild swings with people about the offense.  The first game meh.  Some negativity.  The next game was great.  We found our next HC!  the next game was bad.  Things are really bad.  They play again well.  It's rainbows and lollipops again.

 

I'd like to see at least half the season play out before jumping hard on a take.  I am more optimisitc about Howell than most.  Bieniemy, too.  But I'd like to see some more script play out before getting too emotional one way or another.

 

Why am i emotional about the o line?  They are on a record pace for sacks and hurries.  But I get it you put it on Howell.  I don't.

 

3 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

 

Nope.

 

As you often like to do, you’re attempting to put me in an extreme position to bolster your own. The trenches have immense value in my book and believe the playoffs often highlight strengths and weaknesses in the trenches. 

 

 

You've said multiple times in different posts you don't like spending resources on the o line compared to most positions citing injuries, etc.  I know i didn't imagine those posts.

 

I don't need to represent your takes in any different ways to bolster my own.  I don't care about winning arguments.  I don't care about being right.  If I were right about just about everything, I'd be wasting my time here, I should be working in the NFL.  As Parcells likes to say, the best get it 50% right.   

 

I don't recall you changing takes that often or saying you were wrong about this or that over the years. 

 

3 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

This was happening while you were celebrating the signings of other teams... Juwan Taylor and mentions of other bum Olineman  

rt Howell. 

 

Really go find me the post here where I celebrated Juawn Taylor.  You are just making that one up -- talk about misrepresenting takes.    And what bum O lineman did i push?  And as for Waller, I said he's a wildcard, if he stays healthy.

 

But look again I don't give a rats behind about what I nailed or not.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Riggo#44]

36 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Ron is like a $20 bottle of wine IMO.  Decent but nothing remarkable.  But better than the $6 bottle of wine that was Vinny or Cerrato.

...or the $3 bottle of MD 20/20 Bruce Allen was.

[Conn]

3 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

That's the problem with this place. There is the obvious takes stuff that everybody will agree with like "we need more first round picks to hit" well duh. But I was in a disucssion with Craig Hoffman on Twitter this morning about just that (talking about a segment on his radio show last night) saying that it was an argument looking for a point because we may have hit on a 5th rounder, at QB. 

 

I'm not going to go into the details of that discussion here because i don't want to derail this thread but I feel like we get into too much of an ecochamber as @KDawg kinda called it. And while I have the rep as the "low round QB" guy its its not a hill I'm going to die on (see Dwayne Haskins/Ramsey/Campbell). Thing is many of us DC sports fans are hurt and broken by losing franchises and seeing owners like Abe Pollin who won't fire a coach seemingly ever, seems to have broken us to ALWAYS want to call for firing everybody at every occasion. So at every occasion there seems to be a discussion on who to fire next (there were calls to fire JDR on BMitch and JP's show on Monday). He had a top 10 defense last year. 

 

Its not that I don't believe the positions I post. Its more that I try to find the elements that I believe. Going back to BMitch and JP, where they have the Blame Pie, suppose we have a "believe pie". 50-75% Would be stuff that people on here seem to agree on most of the time. 10-15% are some answers that will be wrong in hindsight, and fans should see right now but still preach because they want to believe.

 

And I'm looking for those last 20-40 % of things to discuss that are potentially factually true, can lead to discussion, and are not just me preaching the same old song. Its not easy and sometimes leads me to defending guys like CJ Beathard more than I should, but I thought he had potential. Same with Brett Rypien and Nick Mullens. 

JDR having a “top 10” D is a garbage stat. Rarely shows up against legit offenses, pads stats against bad teams. Misuses players. JDR deserving to be replaced isn’t some new knee-jerk sentiment, it’s just sinking in more for people in year four. Now that the offense can actually score points, the defense being a liability is becoming more clear to people who were on the fence before. JDR is a dinosaur with no imagination who relies on straight 1-on-1 matchup wins by his highly pedigreed DL to produce any opposing QB discomfort—and if those matchups can’t be won, that’s it. He does nothing schematically to create pressure or confusion.