A new new start! All things Josh Harris and new ownership group.

[Warhead36]

I'd keep Rivera before I kept Wright. Has Wright done ANYTHING right(no pun intended)? Say what you will about Rivera but he inherited a mess of a roster and has at least gotten us to ~.500 and playing meaningful football three Decembers in a row.

[Voice_of_Reason]

13 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I'd keep Rivera before I kept Wright. Has Wright done ANYTHING right(no pun intended)? Say what you will about Rivera but he inherited a mess of a roster and has at least gotten us to ~.500 and playing meaningful football three Decembers in a row.

I also would move in from Wright.  But I’m sure there is plenty of stuff behind the scenes he’s dealt with which has been positive.  The fact he had to try and run a business while Snyder owned it might be as close to a get out of jail free card as you can get.  
 

That said, my bet is they eventually move on from him.  

[kingdaddy]

On 8/9/2023 at 4:56 PM, lavar1156 said:

If we makes the playoffs and look like a strong team; I think Harris will let Ron coach the final year of the deal. No extension. More of a...let's see you do it again.

I also think the players will have some say...if they openly support RR Harris will listen to them. 

[redskinss]

I'm not saying Ron is the answer, in fact I've Said several times the smart money is on the fact that he's not but this fan base is so hungry for complete change that it really wouldn't matter who our coach was the overwhelming sentiment would be that he had to go.

Don't forget we once had a staff that included Sean mcvay, Kyle Shanahan, Matt Lafleur and a two time superbowl champion head coach and we won 3 games.

If any of those guys were our head coach the last 3 years and struggled the way everybody does under Snyder the majority would want them tossed out with the bathwater and they'd move on to well run organizations and have success like they have.

Rivera has made plenty of mistakes but the biggest one he made was probably taking this job, there was no chance for any real success early and if there's one thing this franchise has been good at for the last 25 years it's chewing up and spitting out good football coaches who either never recover or move on to much more success under real management. 

 

 

[Koolblue13]

8 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

I'd keep Rivera before I kept Wright. Has Wright done ANYTHING right(no pun intended)? Say what you will about Rivera but he inherited a mess of a roster and has at least gotten us to ~.500 and playing meaningful football three Decembers in a row.

[KDawg]

On 8/9/2023 at 4:56 PM, lavar1156 said:

If we makes the playoffs and look like a strong team; I think Harris will let Ron coach the final year of the deal. No extension. More of a...let's see you do it again.

 

This actually does make some sense in the large scale, but only in certain contexts.

 

If we hire a new GM in the off-season, the GM would really need a year to adequately get in, get scouts in place, get reports and get a true understanding of the roster. Yes, you can do a significant crash course and get yourself semi up to speed but you will miss things in translation. A lot of scouting means it has to take place over time and the more rushed you go through the process the more things you miss. Little nuances. 

 

Hiring a GM at the end of this year and taking that responsibility off of Rivera but allowing him to coach his final year on his contract makes sense if we have a good year this year (or even decent). 

 

That allows the GM to get up to speed.

 

Some can argue that makes Rivera a lame duck, and that is true in some regards. However, given it's his final year and there is a new GM evaluating some of that would be mitigated due to the new general manager and many players trying to make a positive impression.

 

If, however, Rivera and the team bomb this year and we find ourselves in position to get a QB (if we bomb we probably need one) then Rivera is out the door.

 

There is a lot of context needed and even then Rivera may not make it to next year. But I wouldn't rule it out. If Harris slow burns this and believes in "The Process" then this is a real possibility.

[Koolblue13]

46 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

This actually does make some sense in the large scale, but only in certain contexts.

 

If we hire a new GM in the off-season, the GM would really need a year to adequately get in, get scouts in place, get reports and get a true understanding of the roster. Yes, you can do a significant crash course and get yourself semi up to speed but you will miss things in translation. A lot of scouting means it has to take place over time and the more rushed you go through the process the more things you miss. Little nuances. 

 

Hiring a GM at the end of this year and taking that responsibility off of Rivera but allowing him to coach his final year on his contract makes sense if we have a good year this year (or even decent). 

 

That allows the GM to get up to speed.

 

Some can argue that makes Rivera a lame duck, and that is true in some regards. However, given it's his final year and there is a new GM evaluating some of that would be mitigated due to the new general manager and many players trying to make a positive impression.

 

If, however, Rivera and the team bomb this year and we find ourselves in position to get a QB (if we bomb we probably need one) then Rivera is out the door.

 

There is a lot of context needed and even then Rivera may not make it to next year. But I wouldn't rule it out. If Harris slow burns this and believes in "The Process" then this is a real possibility.

What's stopping Harris from hiring someone now that will be promoted to GM after the season?

 

Harris has watched the disfunction and losing seasons this team has had. He watched us draft Chase instead of a QB and that fall flat on our faces. He is a fan. He's been watching and paying attention. When he does hire the GM, that GM will have contacts around the league that are ready to come over at scout to anything else.

 

Maybe not you, but some people are acting like Harris was just sitting around without his sights on the future of this franchise. This sale was inevitable and lingered for a long time.

 

Harris has a plan and there's no way it includes our coaches who seem to be not getting along and a FO that isn't all on the same page either.

 

Big changes are coming.

[KDawg]

24 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

What's stopping Harris from hiring someone now that will be promoted to GM after the season?

 

Harris has watched the disfunction and losing seasons this team has had. He watched us draft Chase instead of a QB and that fall flat on our faces. He is a fan. He's been watching and paying attention. When he does hire the GM, that GM will have contacts around the league that are ready to come over at scout to anything else.

 

Maybe not you, but some people are acting like Harris was just sitting around without his sights on the future of this franchise. This sale was inevitable and lingered for a long time.

 

Harris has a plan and there's no way it includes our coaches who seem to be not getting along and a FO that isn't all on the same page either.

 

Big changes are coming.

 

Nothing. But until it happens we don't have the context needed to really know any of this stuff. So it's all conjecture and thoughts on "what ifs"

 

Your scenario (hiring a GM now) is also plausible. And that also gives the evaluation window (though it's late in the process at this point and not as clean. But it could be done that way)

[MartinC]

29 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

What's stopping Harris from hiring someone now that will be promoted to GM after the season?

 

Rons contract that says he has final say and is at the head of football operations not just the head coach of the football team. Bringing in a GM over Rons head would require a change to his contract and role and therefore his agreement. Thats a conversation that would likely lead to either a mutual agreement to terminate his agreement or him being fired if he refused the change.

 

That might be OK - and the most likely outcome by far IMO is that this is Rons last season as HC here anyway. But it’s a barrier to Harris just making the move independent of agreement by Ron.

[Skinsinparadise]

2024 should be very interesting

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

11 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

I'd keep Rivera before I kept Wright. Has Wright done ANYTHING right(no pun intended)? Say what you will about Rivera but he inherited a mess of a roster and has at least gotten us to ~.500 and playing meaningful football three Decembers in a row.

 

Wright is meaningless though as for wins or loses.  I don't care how much we win or not off the field.  Lets win on the field.  I don't think Ron is a disaster on that front.  He's OK.  But IMO I think we need to shoot higher, much higher.

[Conn]

45 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

Rons contract that says he has final say and is at the head of football operations not just the head coach of the football team. Bringing in a GM over Rons head would require a change to his contract and role and therefore his agreement. Thats a conversation that would likely lead to either a mutual agreement to terminate his agreement or him being fired if he refused the change.

 

That might be OK - and the most likely outcome by far IMO is that this is Rons last season as HC here anyway. But it’s a barrier to Harris just making the move independent of agreement by Ron.

 

VoR has said this a lot and now you are as well, so I have to point out…

 

We really have no idea what Rivera’s contract does or does not guarantee him in terms of control/final say/power in relation to the owner or a hire made by the owner.
 

We can say he’d have to be a dummy to not require that language in his contract, knowing he was coming to work for Dan Snyder. But clearly Shanahan and Gibbs didn’t have that language. Who is to say that Rivera is the first to actually have it, legally, even if he functionally has had final say?
 

And who is to say that hiring a VP/GM to evaluate the org and roster on the football side even violates such a hypothetical contract. Getting in the door to evaluate everyone for the boss doesn’t require making roster decisions or hirings/firings right away. I doubt it plays out this way because the hiring cycle is long over and Harris doesn’t seem like a guy to hire outside the current NFL for such a role—that’s a Snyder move—but it’s still possible. 

Edited August 11, 2023 by Conn

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

 

There is a lot of context needed and even then Rivera may not make it to next year. But I wouldn't rule it out. If Harris slow burns this and believes in "The Process" then this is a real possibility.

 

The slow burn "The Process" was about tanking and getting high draft picks.

 

Ron is certainly a slow burn dude.  But not really in the process type of way.  He's not a take a step back to take two steps foward kind of guy.  He's just a slow-cautious step guy.

 

I've posted and read a ton about Josh Harris and unless he's been mischaracterized, Ron doesn't come up even a little up Harris alley stylistically but will see.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

As for Ron, Wright tensions.  I've spoken about this before, I wonder if it has to do with how both treated Dan on the way out.

 

Ron was beyond respectful to Dan, he was effusive in his praise and defended him to the bitter end.

 

Wright threw Dan under the bus big time with all the comments that alluded to they had no chance when Dan was there.

 

I take the point a step further based on Dan's press release.  Sheehan talked about this.  That release alluded to diversity in their hires and referenced multiple examples but didn't include Wright in that mix which is beyond odd.

 

So I think there is a good shot that Dan ended on really good terms with Rivera and bad terms with Wright.  I doubt its the only variable but it wouldn't surprise me if its one variable that rubbed Rivera the wrong way.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

Harris can hire whoever he wants. He'll wait until after the season to replace RonMart unless we tank, but we'll definitely have people inside doing evals and im sure the next GM has eyes on this current team.

[MartinC]

12 minutes ago, Conn said:

 

VoR has said this a lot and now you are as well, so I have to point out…

 

We really have no idea what Rivera’s contract does or does not guarantee him in terms of control/final say/power in relation to the owner or a hire made by the owner.
 

We can say he’d have to be a dummy to not require that language in his contract, knowing he was coming to work for Dan Snyder. But clearly Shanahan and Gibbs didn’t have that language. Who is to say that Rivera is the first to actually have it, legally, even if he functionally has had final say?
 

And who is to say that hiring a VP/GM to evaluate the org and roster on the football side even violates such a hypothetical contract. Getting in the door to evaluate everyone for the boss doesn’t require making roster decisions or hirings/firings right away. I doubt it plays out this way because the hiring cycle is long over and Harris doesn’t seem like a guy to hire outside the current NFL for such a role—that’s a Snyder move—but it’s still possible. 

That’s fair - I’m making an assumption. But I think as assumptions go it’s a safe one. Even if the language is not specific the practical implication of bringing in a GM over Ron’s head would be the same. 

[KDawg]

14 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The slow burn "The Process" was about tanking and getting high draft picks.

 

Ron is certainly a slow burn dude.  But not really in the process type of way.  He's not a take a step back to take two steps foward kind of guy.  He's just a slow-cautious step guy.

 

I've posted and read a ton about Josh Harris and unless he's been mischaracterized, Ron doesn't come up even a little up Harris alley stylistically but will see.

Not what I meant. 
 

“The Process” wasn’t just about tanking. Yes, tanking was part of it. That’s also the part that made it unsuccessful. They became a perpetual culture of losing. It wasn’t a one season issue. It was several. 
 

But the process also included getting the right people in place (or the perceived right people) and giving them some room to maneuver and some time. 
 

Rivera is certainly not a tank commander. But he’s an excellent place holder if you don’t hire a GM until this off-season.

 

but, again, context matters. If some hotshot assistant or big name becomes available that this franchise (Harris) covets, he’d obviously try to pull the trigger and Rivera would be gone. 
 

But if that person isn’t available and this team is decent then it’s not a bad move to keep Ron in the final year of his contract… as HC only. If he doesn’t agree to that he’s toast anyways most likely. 
 

That would give the GM time to evaluate the roster and it’s needs as well as the coaches and assistants to see who he keeps (rather has potential to keep with the new HC) and who will not remain.

 

Strategically it makes a lot of sense for a Process. 
 

But there are many other things that make sense, too. Gotta see how each domino falls before going too far into this rabbit hole.

[Conn]

18 minutes ago, MartinC said:

That’s fair - I’m making an assumption. But I think as assumptions go it’s a safe one. Even if the language is not specific the practical implication of bringing in a GM over Ron’s head would be the same. 

I think there’s a pretty big difference between saying “this would cause conflict and won’t be done” and “this is impossible to do because legally he can’t or he’s violating a contract”. Very different. 

[Skinsinparadise]

54 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Not what I meant. 
 

“The Process” wasn’t just about tanking. Yes, tanking was part of it. That’s also the part that made it unsuccessful. They became a perpetual culture of losing. It wasn’t a one season issue. It was several. 
 

But the process also included getting the right people in place (or the perceived right people) and giving them some room to maneuver and some time. 
 

Rivera is certainly not a tank commander. But he’s an excellent place holder if you don’t hire a GM until this off-season.

 

but, again, context matters. If some hotshot assistant or big name becomes available that this franchise (Harris) covets, he’d obviously try to pull the trigger and Rivera would be gone. 
 

But if that person isn’t available and this team is decent then it’s not a bad move to keep Ron in the final year of his contract… as HC only. If he doesn’t agree to that he’s toast anyways most likely. 
 

That would give the GM time to evaluate the roster and it’s needs as well as the coaches and assistants to see who he keeps (rather has potential to keep with the new HC) and who will not remain.

 

Strategically it makes a lot of sense for a Process. 
 

But there are many other things that make sense, too. Gotta see how each domino falls before going too far into this rabbit hole.

 

I agree about the GM after this season as opposed to during.  But as to after, Ron wouldn't be the typical dude that Josh entrusted his teams with to say the least. 

 

Not saying you are on the other side of this but just explaining my point.  Te hire a team and let them do their thing patiently.  If so, nothing novel about that at all, most teams engage in that regard with the process.

 

The reason why it was a narrative was because of the emphasis of adding draft picks, losing to win.  They got Embid ultimately and became a consistent winner.  Some say the process succeeded.   Not everyone thinks it failed.

 

The vibe I get is Harris seems to like to either drive 100 milies an hour or step back at 35 miles hour to so 100 miles later.  He's big on outside the box, anayltic type thinkers.  Ron in so many ways is the opposite of the profile he has preferred.

 

But agree, let Ron coach this season, leave him alone and change in 2024.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[88Comrade2000]

2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

What's stopping Harris from hiring someone now that will be promoted to GM after the season?

 

Harris has watched the disfunction and losing seasons this team has had. He watched us draft Chase instead of a QB and that fall flat on our faces. He is a fan. He's been watching and paying attention. When he does hire the GM, that GM will have contacts around the league that are ready to come over at scout to anything else.

 

Maybe not you, but some people are acting like Harris was just sitting around without his sights on the future of this franchise. This sale was inevitable and lingered for a long time.

 

Harris has a plan and there's no way it includes our coaches who seem to be not getting along and a FO that isn't all on the same page either.

 

Big changes are coming.

Well as VOR says, contractually Ron is GM.-So, you can’t do anything there unless Ron agrees to give it up.  So, that Gm hire not happening until January.

 

Also, during the season what team will let their assistant gms or personnel people interview for a job.

[RVAskins]

Everyone keeps saying Ron Rivera is our GM and while he may make the final decisions, Martin Mayhew is actually the GM. Bringing in another GM means getting rid of Mayhew and most likely Marty Hurney, not RR.

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, Conn said:

I think there’s a pretty big difference between saying “this would cause conflict and won’t be done” and “this is impossible to do because legally he can’t or he’s violating a contract”. Very different. 

I’m not saying it won’t be done at the end of the season but I am saying it won’t be done right now. There is a difference contractually between those two situations but practically in terms of consequence/result I’m not sure there is much difference.

 

First off I think it’s highly likely Ron has contractual language around his role and final say. If I was taking that job under Dan Snyder I’m damn sure I’d want that and Ron is not an idiot. 

 

But even if there is not, or it’s vague enough language there is wiggle room if Harris sits down with Ron and says I’m bringing in a GM who you will report to that’s almost certain to trigger Ron leaving one way or another at that point irrespective of what any contract says. That’s why IMO that conversation does not happen unless/until Harris has decided he wants to move on from Ron period. Which is not now IMO.

 

At the point that conversation happens I think it’s about terms of how Ron leaves and if/how his final year is paid up. 
 

I guess there is a world in which we have what could be considered a successful season and Harris could offer Ron a contract extension in return for giving up final say and reporting to a new GM and Ron stays. But that doesn’t make much sense to me and hamstrings the new GM. Can’t see that happening. 
 

19 minutes ago, RVAskins said:

Everyone keeps saying Ron Rivera is our GM and while he may make the final decisions, Martin Mayhew is actually the GM. Bringing in another GM means getting rid of Mayhew and most likely Marty Hurney, not RR.

Who does Mayhew (and Hurney) report to? 

[RVAskins]

8 minutes ago, MartinC said:

Who does Mayhew (and Hurney) report to? 

RR of course but who's tittle is General manager. It's Martin Mayhew.  All I'm saying is that Harris could get rid of Mayhew and hire a new GM while keeping RR. I'm not going to say that will happen but it's a possibility. 

[KDawg]

28 minutes ago, RVAskins said:

Everyone keeps saying Ron Rivera is our GM and while he may make the final decisions, Martin Mayhew is actually the GM. Bringing in another GM means getting rid of Mayhew and most likely Marty Hurney, not RR.

Rivera is the GM in all but title. The Marty’s work for him.

[The Rook]

What I would like to see Harris do right now is beef-up the scouting program before the college season gets underway. Let's get some more eyes evaluating people.

 

I'm tired of the bare-bones scouting department.

 

 

 

The Rook

 

Edited August 11, 2023 by The Rook