2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

[Koolblue13]

Ron got Trent, Flowers, Roullier, Scherff, Moses and Callahan and now we have none of that, nothing to show for it and our TE coach coaching the Oline and our best player is the epitome of average. Barely addressed in the draft and bottom tier FAs brought in.

 

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

After reading the last couple of pages, I have realized that Ron Rivera is a drooling vegetable and I’m changing my prediction to 1-16. 

 

I’m ready for tomorrow night. Maybe we get some new material in here. Or post more pics of Steven Seagal. 😆

Edited August 20, 2023 by AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy

[Skinsinparadise]

While I personally don't fault Ron for Trent.  Bruce-Dan IMO screwed it up.  Bruce botched the draft capital.  And I got the vibe from beat guys that Dan was done with Trent after it all went down.  As for Scherff, he made an attempt to sign him before that 2nd tag.

 

What I fault Ron though for is look at all the cap room they got from moving those players.  He also got cap room by moving away from Moses.  What was done with it?  Or if he didn't want to spend cap on it, how about offsetting it with draft capital?  What happens if you don't do either thing?

 

So we let big expensive players go on the line and they don't use that money to replenish that same unit.  We direct that money elsewhere.  They are not just dead last in draft pedigree as to that unit but are also 26th in spending on the line.  And its not as if they staggered the money like the Chiefs, this team is near the bottom too for 2024. 

 

Some of the counter arguments on this thread what if we sign a higher paid FA and they bust or we draft O linemen high and they still bust, etc.  Ok but the same argument applies to any position.  The risk reward component of shooting high for O lineman isn't any worse than any other spot -- in fact I've read a few studies that show its one of the safest spots to take high in the draft.

 

My point is Ron has little sense of urgency with the O line at best.  At worst, he's not good at evaluating that position.  And if I were a betting man it will cost him his job in the end.

 

If I have $35 and spend it all on a meal and leave myself $3 for the next meal -- both meals are factors not just the one where I spend more.  Some seem to suggest focus on and celebrate the $35 and ignore the cheap next meal, don't look at it as a package.  But darn right its a package. 

 

If another team spreads its draft capital-cap in a more balanced way and we take it in a different direction.  It's two different directions.  It's the whole package.  As Parcells says you are your record.  So will see what Rivera's record is this year.  

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[SkinsFTW]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

So will see what Rivera's record is this year.  

 

 

He better hope Howell somehow turns into Mahomes Jr because otherwise he's stuck in neutral at 7-10 or 8-9 just like always. 

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

He better hope Howell somehow turns into Mahomes Jr because otherwise he's stuck in neutral at 7-10 or 8-9 just like always. 

 

Agree.  I predicted 8-9.   

 

And if that happens, I won't give a rats behind about the flashes and highlights to get there.  It's about the whole package.  Our GPA in school weren't about using the best grades from our best courses.  It's the whole course load averaged together.  

Edited August 20, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[RVAskins]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

But the two have three things in common.

 

A. High character

B. Super durable

C.  Consistent players

But who has/had more drive killing holding penalties?

[RVAskins]

3 hours ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

The best to ever do it.

 

OMG. He does run like a girl! I'd love to see him throw a baseball.

[samy316]

1 hour ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

He better hope Howell somehow turns into Mahomes Jr because otherwise he's stuck in neutral at 7-10 or 8-9 just like always. 

Yes, Howell might be the only thing to save Rivera his job at the end of this season.  Howell has to perform well, AND lead us to the playoffs.  Anything short of that is not acceptable.  Ron can’t bench Howell if he gets off to a rough start early on either.  He has to let Howell ride out his rough stretches as long as he possibly can.  The moment he benches Howell for any reason related to performance, he can kiss his job goodbye.  Brissett is not leading us to the playoffs if he has to come in for Howell, so this season is shot if that actually happens.  It’s a strange position to be in, because if you’re playing a rookie QB in a prove it year for the coach, there’s temptation to make changes if the season gets off to a rough start, but in Rivera’s case, making changes at QB in season will seal his fate.

[wit33]

 

2 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

He better hope Howell somehow turns into Mahomes Jr because otherwise he's stuck in neutral at 7-10 or 8-9 just like always. 

 

Imagine being a coach in the NFL and not having an elite QB lol

 

7-10 or 8-9 is good if you don’t have a QB. If Howell provides competence while being paid peanuts he’ll certainly contribute to a plus 3 win total.

 

Head coaches should be graded on a +/- 3.5 win/loss curve depending on if they have an elite QB. 

[SpacePenguin]

12 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

 

Imagine being a coach in the NFL and not having an elite QB lol

 

7-10 or 8-9 is good if you don’t have a QB. If Howell provides competence while being paid peanuts he’ll certainly contribute to a plus 3 win total.

 

Head coaches should be graded on a +/- 3.5 win/loss curve depending on if they have an elite QB. 

You're not exactly wrong but when the coach in question has final say over personell, that grading curve should be reduced.

 

Acting like Ron has no part in the QBs that have played for the commieskinfootballteam is pretty disingenuous.

 

The guy says he evaluated Wentz and though trading picks for him was a good idea, after all. Desperation shouldn't be an excuse for poor talent evaluation.

Edited August 20, 2023 by SpacePenguin

[MrJL]

2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Ron got Trent, Flowers, Roullier, Scherff, Moses and Callahan and now we have none of that, nothing to show for it and our TE coach coaching the Oline and our best player is the epitome of average. Barely addressed in the draft and bottom tier FAs brought in.

 

 

he did not get Callahan.  Interim coaches don't stick around.  He barely had Trent and it's not his fault Roullier is gone

[Conn]

13 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

 

Imagine being a coach in the NFL and not having an elite QB lol

 

7-10 or 8-9 is good if you don’t have a QB. If Howell provides competence while being paid peanuts he’ll certainly contribute to a plus 3 win total.

 

Head coaches should be graded on a +/- 3.5 win/loss curve depending on if they have an elite QB. 

Cool, then at the end of the season if it didn’t go well, we’ll ignore the HC and fire the guy who put together the roster and chose the QB. 

[MrJL]

3 minutes ago, SpacePenguin said:

You're not exactly wrong but when the coach in question has final say over personell, that grading curve should be reduced.

 

Acting like Ron has no part in the QBs that have played for the commieskinfootballteam is pretty disingenuous.

 

The guy says he evaluated Wentz and though trading picks for him was a good idea, after all.

Wentz is the only one I'd blame him for.  Haskins and Smith made getting a new QB in 2020 almost impossible

[SpacePenguin]

Just now, MrJL said:

Wentz is the only one I'd blame him for.  Haskins and Smith made getting a new QB in 2020 almost impossible

I don't think that either was proven enough to render acquiring an alternative a bad idea. Alex Smith was an aging, glorified game manager on the decline and Haskins had a really small sample size of semi-competent play at an NFL level.

 

Granted, Alex Smith had a ridiculous contract and Dan may have demanded Haskins be given the reigns, but sunk cost fallacy or speculation (respectively) shouldn't absolve the FO, even factoring in the benefit of hindsight.

[samy316]

1 minute ago, MrJL said:

Wentz is the only one I'd blame him for.  Haskins and Smith made getting a new QB in 2020 almost impossible

He should’ve had a better plan in 2021 than Ryan Freaking Fitzpatrick.  They could’ve drafted QB that year too.  Ryan Fitzpatrick had never been to the playoffs in his career before signing with Washington.  2022 is what will be remembered as Ron’s greatest error addressing the QB spot.  He should’ve just rolled with {redacted} and had Sam as the backup.  Who knows, we might have even gotten a wildcard spot last year if we just stood pat at QB.  Wentz cost us at least 2 games that {redacted} probably overcomes if he were starting (not to give him too much credit, I realize redacted is a limited QB also).

[dyst]

The record is not showing it yet and that may be a coaching issue, but overall not only is it good to have a new ownership group but the roster is the most I’ve been happy with in a long while. We have a lot of home grown talent that other teams would absolutely want. The O-line sucks but I hope we get that figured out real soon.
 

 

[NoCalMike]

RG3's rookie season likely saved Shanahan's job for another couple of seasons, it'll be interesting if Howell showing out does a similar thing or if the front office views it more as a product of EB and promotes him to HC.

 

A true franchise QB sort of trumps everything in the NFL even at times the head coach. 

 

 

[88Comrade2000]

3 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

He better hope Howell somehow turns into Mahomes Jr because otherwise he's stuck in neutral at 7-10 or 8-9 just like always. 

7 is Ron’s favorite. 

2012 - 7, his 2nd year

2014- 7, winning division & going to playoffs 

2018- 7

2020- 7, winning division and going to playoffs 

2021- 7

 

5 times in his 12 years, he hit that magic 7. 
 

 

 

Regardless what happens at coaching this year; 2024 Josh will separate the Gm and coaching into 2 positions. Josh will also have the Gm of his choosing. This is the #1 issue to be changed next year.

 

Our current gm/coach will either agree or not agree with that but that is how it must and will be.

 

 

[MrJL]

2 minutes ago, SpacePenguin said:

I don't think that either was proven enough to render acquiring an alternative a bad idea. Alex Smith was an aging, glorified game manager on the decline and Haskins had a really small sample size of semi-competent play at an NFL level.

 

Granted, Alex Smith had a ridiculous contract and Dan may have demanded Haskins be given the reigns, but sunk cost fallacy or speculation (respectively) shouldn't absolve the FO, even factoring in the benefit of hindsight.

The ridiculous contract is why they coudn't just dump him.  There's limits to how much you can reject sunk cost fallacy in a sports league with a salary cap

 

2 minutes ago, samy316 said:

He should’ve had a better plan in 2021 than Ryan Freaking Fitzpatrick.  They could’ve drafted QB that year too.  Ryan Fitzpatrick had never been to the playoffs in his career before signing with Washington.  2022 is what will be remembered as Ron’s greatest error addressing the QB spot.  He should’ve just rolled with {redacted} and had Sam as the backup.  Who knows, we might have even gotten a wildcard spot last year if we just stood pat at QB.  Wentz cost us at least 2 games that {redacted} probably overcomes if he were starting (not to give him too much credit, I realize redacted is a limited QB also).

 

spend multiple first to move up for at best Justin Fields?  And they'd acquired Wentz before they drafted Howell

[wit33]

2 hours ago, Conn said:

Cool, then at the end of the season if it didn’t go well, we’ll ignore the HC and fire the guy who put together the roster and chose the QB. 

No doubt, he’s in line to lose GM duties. 
 

My guess is  this team is going to play lights out for the dude they seem to respect and appreciate. 

 

Love the roster he’s built. Put up time though!

Edited August 21, 2023 by wit33

[MartinC]

2 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

 

Imagine being a coach in the NFL and not having an elite QB lol

 

7-10 or 8-9 is good if you don’t have a QB. If Howell provides competence while being paid peanuts he’ll certainly contribute to a plus 3 win total.

 

Head coaches should be graded on a +/- 3.5 win/loss curve depending on if they have an elite QB. 

Which is fine and reasonable. But if the HC is also the defacto GM and heading into his fourth season and hasn’t provided himself with at least a good starting QB, you take any extra credit off their combined grade. This is Ron’s roster now top to bottom, good and bad.

[RandyHolt]

8 hours ago, Jumbo said:

 

Who complains about the finest acting we've ever seen from Steven Segal?

 

 

What kind of babbling bull**** is this?

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

Regardless what happens at coaching this year; 2024 Josh will separate the Gm and coaching into 2 positions. Josh will also have the Gm of his choosing. This is the #1 issue to be changed next year.

And once again you ignore the fact Ron has contractual control over football ops and Josh CAN'T hire a GM until he changes or ends Ron's contract. And IF they go 10-7 or better and into the playoffs, it's going to be MUCH harder to do.  

 

You can keep posting the same thing over and over.  I kept telling you the reason you were wrong about Terry.  You ignored me then.  You were wrong.  I (and just about everybody else) was right.  This is the same situation.  You're posting black and white, and I'm telling you it's grey.  

 

All that said, it's absolutely irrelevant until we see how the season plays out.  Hell, if the season starts out badly, Josh might fire Ron mid-season to get a jump on the GM search.  If it turns out really well, the situation changes.  And nobody knows what's going to happen unless they have e DeLorean time machine parked in their garage with a working Mr. Fusion.  

[shemp nixon]

5 hours ago, RVAskins said:

OMG. He does run like a girl! I'd love to see him throw a baseball.

How dare you, sir... How dare you insult the man who invented the front kick.

Shame, shame I say.😀

[88Comrade2000]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

And once again you ignore the fact Ron has contractual control over football ops and Josh CAN'T hire a GM until he changes or ends Ron's contract. And IF they go 10-7 or better and into the playoffs, it's going to be MUCH harder to do.  

 

You can keep posting the same thing over and over.  I kept telling you the reason you were wrong about Terry.  You ignored me then.  You were wrong.  I (and just about everybody else) was right.  This is the same situation.  You're posting black and white, and I'm telling you it's grey.  

 

All that said, it's absolutely irrelevant until we see how the season plays out.  Hell, if the season starts out badly, Josh might fire Ron mid-season to get a jump on the GM search.  If it turns out really well, the situation changes.  And nobody knows what's going to happen unless they have e DeLorean time machine parked in their garage with a working Mr. Fusion.  

That is change that must happen regardless of how Ron finishes. Once the season ends that will be #1 topic and they will have to have that discussion. They will either reach an agreement that allows this or they won’t and part ways. Separating the Gm and coach must be the #1 issue addressed and if leads to a parting with Ron, even if he has a good season; so be it.

 

Having a top flight Gm, separate from 

head coach; is the #1 issue to getting back to being a consistent winner. That’s more important than continuing with a mediocre coach, who has a good season.  
 

I don’t care if Ron has full control now. He won’t after the season ends and if the only way to achieve that is firing him, then fire him.