2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

[UK Skins]

I know there's some kind of formula for Hard Knocks but we have to be certainties for next year surely? New ownership bedded in, Snyder long gone, team trending upwards (hopefully). Bring it on!

[philibusters]

5 minutes ago, UK Skins said:

I know there's some kind of formula for Hard Knocks but we have to be certainties for next year surely? New ownership bedded in, Snyder long gone, team trending upwards (hopefully). Bring it on!

 

Two things could allow us to have the option to decline next year.  First is if we have a new coach.  First year coaches have the option to decline to be on hard knocks.   Second if we make the playoffs, then we are given the option to decline to be on the show.

Edited June 28, 2023 by philibusters

[UK Skins]

I guess I'm going to be wrong then! If we don't make the play-offs we will/should have a new coach!

[88Comrade2000]

15 hours ago, Going Commando said:

Bieniemy has HC written all over him.  Unless he takes over Ron's job, we're just a stop on the way for him.

I hope his stint here finally leads to him getting a head coaching job and he doesn't get tainted by the Snyder stain, even though Dan will be gone for good 7/20.

 

It would be nice if Josh considers him for the job.

[skinny21]

13 hours ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

Why would Rivera still being the HC be implausible? If the new owners think he's turned the team around, then they probably don't fire him. We can say low odds of remaining HC, but I wouldn't say implausible.

 

Harris bought the 76ers, the incumbent coach lasted 2 seasons.

Harris bought the Devils, the incumbent coach lasted 2 seasons.

 

Each scenario wasn't the same either. Doug Collins squeaked into the playoffs right before Harris bought the team. His next season he won a playoff round, and Harris let them be aggressive in moves to take them to another level. It didn't work, they missed the playoffs and were replaced. I don't know enough about Hockey to say, but they missed the playoffs before Harris bought the team, missed it in the first season of ownership but still let the Head Coach stick around for 1 more season. They missed it again and a new head coach was sought.

 

So maybe Harris wants to shake things up as new owner after 1 season (which he had not before). But if the team is trending in the right direction (say make the playoffs), his track record with the 76ers and Devils makes it seem like he would not fire Rivera. I have a hunch that we as fans are a little harsher on Rivera's chances than Harris might be. I think we want to see even more of a positive trend, say not just the playoffs but also a playoff win.

Your post got me thinking about how Harris might view Rivera, which I might address in a follow-up post.  I do agree that it might be premature to assume Rivera’s gone after this year.

Worth noting that one glaring difference is Rivera also holding the GM role.

[Chris 44]

30 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Your post got me thinking about how Harris might view Rivera, which I might address in a follow-up post.  I do agree that it might be premature to assume Rivera’s gone after this year.

Worth noting that one glaring difference is Rivera also holding the GM role.

I agree in that I dont think its a given that Ron will be gone after this year, but I also think it is very unlikely he will be holding both positions.

[samy316]

9 minutes ago, Chris 44 said:

I agree in that I dont think its a given that Ron will be gone after this year, but I also think it is very unlikely he will be holding both positions.

 

I think there's a very good chance Ron isn't here after this year.  In order to keep his job as HC, he needs to net us at least 10 wins, and probably one playoff win.  If he can't do that, then he should be shown the door.  He would've had 4 years to get this team into contention for the NFC, and he's been mid at best.  No more excuses.  22-27-1 does NOT earn him leeway, or extra chances, ESPECIALLY with how horribly he's handled the QB situation and the O-Line.  If Harris wants to move him to an FO role, like President of Operations (Jason Wright), or as an official ambassador of the team, he can do that, but Ron shouldn't be the HC for this team after this year if we don't get to 10 wins and at least 1 playoff win.

 

Coaches with a similar record after 3 seasons have been fired.  Hell, most wouldn't have even made it to the end of season 3.  The time for mediocre and average is over.  We should be shooting for the stars, and developing an aggressive mindset going forward, and it starts with finding a new HC.

Edited June 28, 2023 by samy316

[88Comrade2000]

Ron is the #1 coach on the hot seat.

 

 

In terms of coaching, Ron has to at least at minimum win a playoff game ; to be considered to be allowed to finish his contract in 24. No extension but he meets that metric, he gets to come back. If Ron returns to the playoffs in 24 and at least match that result; then he would be considered for a new contract.

 

 

The dealbreaker that could see a parting, regardless of what happens at coaching is Ron being the Gm.

 

Josh will want his own Gm . So, he will want to get rid of the Marty’s. Also, he will want his coach to be coach only.  Will Ron give up that authority? Will he allow the Marty’s to be fired and a new Gm hired. Will Ron agree to give up Gm powers and be just a coach.

Odds are Ron will refuse and there will be a parting over this, even if Ron has a season earning him a return.

 

 

Honestly, I think it will be mute; as team finishes 7-10 or 8-9.  Also, good chance for a slow start and Ron gets fired early in the season.  Actually having EB, makes Josh more likely to pull trigger, if we have a slow start.

[samy316]

12 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

Ron is the #1 coach on the hot seat.

 

 

In terms of coaching, Ron has to at least at minimum win a playoff game ; to be considered to be allowed to finish his contract in 24. No extension but he meets that metric, he gets to come back. If Ron returns to the playoffs in 24 and at least match that result; then he would be considered for a new contract.

 

 

The dealbreaker that could see a parting, regardless of what happens at coaching is Ron being the Gm.

 

Josh will want his own Gm . So, he will want to get rid of the Marty’s. Also, he will want his coach to be coach only.  Will Ron give up that authority? Will he allow the Marty’s to be fired and a new Gm hired. Will Ron agree to give up Gm powers and be just a coach.

Odds are Ron will refuse and there will be a parting over this, even if Ron has a season earning him a return.

 

 

Honestly, I think it will be mute; as team finishes 7-10 or 8-9.  Also, good chance for a slow start and Ron gets fired early in the season.  Actually having EB, makes Josh more likely to pull trigger, if we have a slow start.

Yes, Ron is treading in dangerous waters for the upcoming season.  He has to avoid another slow start (he has yet to do this), AND he has to finish with a winning record (something he’s done only 3 times as an HC in 12 seasons).  Add to that rolling with Howell as his starting QB after botching that position the last few years, makes Ron a red hot target to be the first coaching casualty of 2023.  

Edited June 28, 2023 by samy316

[formerly4skins]

Looks like the hammer came down on Shaka Toney today.  Minimum 1 year suspension.

 

Sad, because I think a lot of us felt like the dude had talent to develop...and instead he's probably flushed his nfl career down the crapper.

 

 

[CobraCommander]

12 minutes ago, formerly4skins said:

Looks like the hammer came down on Shaka Toney today.  Minimum 1 year suspension.

 

Sad, because I think a lot of us felt like the dude had talent to develop...and instead he's probably flushed his nfl career down the crapper.

 

 

Maybe broadly legalizing sports betting wasn’t such a great idea after all. It’s gonna get worse before it gets better. Sports team owners should not be allowed to own betting companies as well. 

[skinny21]

5 hours ago, samy316 said:

 

I think there's a very good chance Ron isn't here after this year.  In order to keep his job as HC, he needs to net us at least 10 wins, and probably one playoff win.  If he can't do that, then he should be shown the door.  He would've had 4 years to get this team into contention for the NFC, and he's been mid at best.  No more excuses.  22-27-1 does NOT earn him leeway, or extra chances, ESPECIALLY with how horribly he's handled the QB situation and the O-Line.  If Harris wants to move him to an FO role, like President of Operations (Jason Wright), or as an official ambassador of the team, he can do that, but Ron shouldn't be the HC for this team after this year if we don't get to 10 wins and at least 1 playoff win.

 

Coaches with a similar record after 3 seasons have been fired.  Hell, most wouldn't have even made it to the end of season 3.  The time for mediocre and average is over.  We should be shooting for the stars, and developing an aggressive mindset going forward, and it starts with finding a new HC.

I certainly don’t have a problem with this line of thinking, and I think Ron’s dual GM/Head Coach role makes it even less likely he sticks.

 

With that said, in terms of Rivera’s record here, I don’t know just how much to factor in Snyder’s grubby thumb on the scales.  How much to weigh spending issues, poor facilities and stadium, lackluster fanbase, lawsuits, national image, and so on.  For me personally, I have some serious respect for some things Ron’s managed, especially considering Covid, cancer, the Snyder effect, etc.  The culture change, managing to re-sign Terry, Allen and Payne (and the focus on in-house guys rather than pricey FAs), drafting well, fielding what looks to be a very good defense and receiving corp, bringing some respect back to the franchise and so on.  So for me, if Howell (and EB’s scheme) shows some promise, I wouldn’t mind seeing what he could do with continuity at both qb and OC… even if this year’s record is middle of the road again.  As I said though, I don’t have a problem with people disagreeing with me, and I’d be a little surprised if Harris went that route.

[Darth Tater]

6 hours ago, skinny21 said:

Your post got me thinking about how Harris might view Rivera, which I might address in a follow-up post.  I do agree that it might be premature to assume Rivera’s gone after this year.

Worth noting that one glaring difference is Rivera also holding the GM role.

Yep, to assume Rivera is gone after this year requires you to assume final performance. Obviously, if we win the SB, it is going to be Ron's decision.  If we just get to the SB, so close to being only on Ron that we almost should just assume it is up to Ron. Lose the NFCG, probably about a 98% prob Ron is here (most of that 2% uncertainty is on Ron's decision). Just win a game in the PO, still most likely Ron going forward. In those cases, it is almost a sure thing that EB gets tapped by somebody else. If you really want EB going forward you are probably talking a 1 and done playoff or another year as a team just getting a sniff.

[wit33]

Washington posts an 11 win season no matter what takes place in playoffs, it will be difficult to sell to the lockeroom he should be fired.  

[kingdaddy]

Just now, wit33 said:

Washington posts an 11 win season no matter what takes place in playoffs, it will be difficult to sell to the lockeroom he should be fired.  

I agree, especially after all RR has been through and created (culturally) here. Players seem to be buying in and now even more so since EB has come aboard. With good health we are gonna be a good team this year, I have no doubt about that. Can't wait for pre-season to see what EB does with this offense.

[zCommander]

I am conflicted as I think the COVID year, 2020, shouldn't count against Ron. it wasn't his fault that 25+ players were out at the end of the season due to players getting COVID. But still, need to see a better return this year with a better QB and maybe OC. The oline is okay I guess but the D should be really good. 

 

Harris could easily just let Ron finish out his contract if he needs more time to get everything else inline in the FO. Will see how he sees things. 

[XxSpearheadxX]

6 hours ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

 

 

Honestly, I think it will be mute; as team finishes 7-10 or 8-9.  

Its moot. Sorry I can't help it. 🥂 

[RVAskins]

24 minutes ago, XxSpearheadxX said:

Its moot. Sorry I can't help it. 🥂 

 

Oh sorry, you said moot, not Smoot.

[Conn]

2 hours ago, Darth Tater said:

Yep, to assume Rivera is gone after this year requires you to assume final performance. Obviously, if we win the SB, it is going to be Ron's decision.  If we just get to the SB, so close to being only on Ron that we almost should just assume it is up to Ron. Lose the NFCG, probably about a 98% prob Ron is here (most of that 2% uncertainty is on Ron's decision). Just win a game in the PO, still most likely Ron going forward. In those cases, it is almost a sure thing that EB gets tapped by somebody else. If you really want EB going forward you are probably talking a 1 and done playoff or another year as a team just getting a sniff.

I don’t think it requires the gift of prophecy to assume that the majority of the scenarios you painted above are not going to play out. Rivera still being here after this season is easily the lower percentage outcome. Your post pretty accurately lays out why that is. 

[samy316]

2 hours ago, Darth Tater said:

Yep, to assume Rivera is gone after this year requires you to assume final performance. Obviously, if we win the SB, it is going to be Ron's decision.  If we just get to the SB, so close to being only on Ron that we almost should just assume it is up to Ron. Lose the NFCG, probably about a 98% prob Ron is here (most of that 2% uncertainty is on Ron's decision). Just win a game in the PO, still most likely Ron going forward. In those cases, it is almost a sure thing that EB gets tapped by somebody else. If you really want EB going forward you are probably talking a 1 and done playoff or another year as a team just getting a sniff.

I think Rivera gets a reprieve only if he either wins 10+ games, or he wins a playoff game.  If those things don’t happen, I don’t see any benefit of bringing him back.  The chances of him finishing with 8 wins or less is exponentially higher than the chances of him winning 10+.  The first 6-8 weeks will determine whether or not Ron survives.  If this team starts off slow AGAIN, and it finds itself at 2-4 or worse, it’s almost assuredly over.  This team needs to be 3-3 after 6 games, and at least 4-4 or better to have a chance at the playoffs.  With Ron, it’s easier said than done.

[skinny21]

To me, the more salient issues are twofold - how does Howell perform, and how does Harris reconcile wanting his own GM in place with Ron holding both roles.  

To the first issue - if you factor that the lack of a qb was a huge issue in terms of the team’s record under Ron to date, but Howell looks like he might have the goods over the course of this season, it could make sense to keep that continuity and give it a second go… regardless of a slow start or not finishing the season a certain way (10 wins, playoffs, a playoff win, etc).  

Of course, looking at the 2nd issue - if Harris wants a handpicked GM in place from the get go, he can’t very well turn around and foist Ron on that guy.  Now obviously, there’s a chance of threading that needle - Harris brings in a GM, and that GM convinces/allows Ron to stick for one more year because 1) it buys him (the GM) time to get adjusted to the team, 2) gives the team (particularly Howell) a chance at continuity.  Assuming Ron doesn’t take issue with losing his GM hat, which is a shaky assumption at best (and I suppose his reaction could be a 3rd more salient issue).

 

Safest bet though is that he’s gone after this year regardless.

[Conn]

If we had to cook up a best case, wildest dreams scenario—it’s probably Howell looking extremely legit regardless of record, Rivera voluntarily retiring, Harris’ new GM getting hired, and EB crushing the HC interview process on his new home turf after a year as Asst HC and Howell-developer. All the other decisions (Del Rio, assistant coaches, etc.) could flow from there after EB has spent a year in the building getting a feel for everyone. 
 

There are other positive outcomes that look nothing like this, this is just the one that includes Howell obviously being the answer, keeping offensive continuity if EB ends up being the truth—but refreshing under a new FO after a GM hire. 
 

Probably not going to happen, but fun to think about. 

[FootballZombie]

Unless we are a very good team there will be massive incentive to move on from Riv as Harris is gonna be hunting for ways to sell change to the fanbase this year and next and there is not much of a better way to do that then blowing up the FO.

 

Riv has to provide great returns to have any hope of sticking around. There will be no "they are on the upswing, lets conserve continuity"

Be great or be gone.

 

 

Not fair, but neither is the NFL.

[Conn]

5 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

Unless we are a very good team there will be massive incentive to move on from Riv as Harris is gonna be hunting for ways to sell change to the fanbase this year and next and there is not much of a better way to do that then blowing up the FO.

 

Riv has to provide great returns to have any hope of sticking around. There will be no "they are on the upswing, lets conserve continuity"

Be great or be gone.

 

 

Not fair, but neither is the NFL.

It’s perfectly fair imo, he’ll have had almost 70 games by that point to earn it or fumble it. He likely only has a job right now after 3 seasons because of the timing of the ownership change. 

[CobraCommander]

Let’s face it. We’re not winning 11 games. 9 max. MAX. We have essentially a redshirt rookie and a suspect o-line. That’s a recipe for disaster.  
Rivera is a good man. But he’s not cut out to be THE GUY. 
The sooner we hire a real GM the better off we will be going into the next year.