2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

[Califan007 The Constipated]

On 6/22/2023 at 5:57 AM, formerly4skins said:

 

Fair mistake...

 

The team was claiming to have won the SB in '92 just a few short months ago.

 

 

We did win the SB in 1992 lol...

[RVAskins]

19 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

We did win the SB in 1992 lol...

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Ever since we talked about it last week, I've been upset thinking about how set up this team would be if we traded Trent and Kirk for first rounders and then some.

Maybe.  The success rate of draft picks is so mixed.  It’s possible everything would be very different.  Or it’s possible it wouldn’t be. 
 

I’m not really mad at the trades we’ve made recently.  What I’m not thrilled with is spending so much capital on the side of the ball that’s less important.  I don’t quibble with any of the picks, but going Allen, Payne, Sweat, young, and Davis in the first rounds in consecutive years is just a bad idea. And then they went defense again this year after a one year hiatus picking Dotson. 
 

They haven’t selected OL in the first round since Scherff in 2015.  And before that it was Trent in 2010.

 

I care less about the assets we’ve traded and more about the assets we’ve misused.

 

For example, I actually don’t care they spent a 2nd and 3rd on Wentz.  They needed a QB and [REDACTED] could not be an option do they took a shot.  Fine.  
 

But to compliment that move they brought in 2 old washed up vets who they just hoped wouldn’t suck on the OL, didn’t have a backup center who wasn’t on the PUP list, and had a scheme that wasn’t OL friendly.  
 

That’s just stupid roster building strategy. 
 

I have some degree of faith this year will be somewhat better.  But how much? It’s unclear.  
 

I’m putting a lot of faith that the WCO will as invented to cover for a woeful OL by Walsh when he was the OC in Cincinnati.  The theory is spread the field horizontally and force separation quickly so your OL doesn’t have to do much.  If they can run that style if offense, which is EXACTLY what KC does, with some creative shot plays, they’ll probably be ok assuming Howell is at least “ok” at QB and not [REDACTED] or John Beck level of suck.  

[Koolblue13]

33 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

But to compliment that move they brought in 2 old washed up vets who they just hoped wouldn’t suck on the OL, didn’t have a backup center who wasn’t on the PUP list, and had a scheme that wasn’t OL friendly.  

 I thought that was about this year  

 

le sigh

 

I love drafting defense in the first every year. It's usually where (midround) teams should be drafting elite defenders.

 

If we got Roquan Smith instead of Jamin Davis, I doubt there's be a complaint. 

 

LT should be drafted high first and we've neglected it. Yes, but the other 4 spots are guys you draft later and develop. Roullier, Kelce,6th rounders. Creed Humphry? Back of the 2nd. We let the Colts steal Reiter and dude wouldn't come back. Went to a SB for it.

 

We've developed garbage. Cosmi, Charles, Ismael, Piercenbacker, Wes ****ing Martin, Geron?  That's been our issue. We had the Oline god here and looked great with Flowers and Roullier and Scherff. Lose two probowlers, develop nobody, suck ass.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Brand new OL coach this year. We had young guys in the pipeline that should be improving. This is the year we figure out if the organization can select and develop guys. Paul and Cosmi (less belief in Charles) need to step up.

 

I agree that it's not looking good for the teams reputation regarding OL. But I think this is the season that cements whether they really can or not. Beforehand it was foolish stubbornness trying to get college OT's in Guard bodies to work out at OT in the Pros. They're still trying to roll the dice with 4th rounder Daniels, at some point they need to realize frame and length matter for OT.

[wit33]

Bad Olines generally are coupled with below average QB play and mediocre schemes. 
 

If EB is the real deal and Howell provides 500 yards rushing to go along with 7 rushing TDs, the Oline will be celebrated. 

[FootballZombie]

Guh... hate to see it.

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/jets-are-bracing-for-an-involuntary-hard-knocks-assignment

 

From a business standpoint, yeah no brainer for HBO for a bunch of reasons... still hurts tho.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

26 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

Guh... hate to see it.

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/jets-are-bracing-for-an-involuntary-hard-knocks-assignment

 

From a business standpoint, yeah no brainer for HBO for a bunch of reasons... still hurts tho.

 

I suspect the owner transition happening so late was kind of a dealbreaker. Hard Knocks would already be under way, and the new owners might not have wanted cameras around. Let's be real, if Harris has his business people descend on the organization to turn it upside down and figure just what kind of unholy quagmire Snyder left it in...they probably would not want cameras there.

[Voice_of_Reason]

I actually really think the OL is going to surprise people this year in a good way IF Howell can execute the WCO somewhat effectively. I might be wrong.  But I have some faith because of the scheme….

[Koolblue13]

5 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I actually really think the OL is going to surprise people this year in a good way IF Howell can execute the WCO somewhat effectively. I might be wrong.  But I have some faith because of the scheme….

KC and Reid have done pretty well without fully investing in their Oline over the years, which is strange after so many great HoF level linemen came from there.

 

Although Jaawan Taylor and Donovan Smith, backed up by Niang and Wayna Morris is definitely better than what we have.

[samy316]

10 hours ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

I suspect the owner transition happening so late was kind of a dealbreaker. Hard Knocks would already be under way, and the new owners might not have wanted cameras around. Let's be real, if Harris has his business people descend on the organization to turn it upside down and figure just what kind of unholy quagmire Snyder left it in...they probably would not want cameras there.

 

Yeah, I think the ownership status is why we probably won't get awarded Hard Knocks.  I don't know how compelling we'd be, since the Lions have Dan Campbell (who is a character), and the Jets have Aaron Rodgers now AND they play in the NY market.  It would've raised the profile of this team somewhat if we were on Hard Knocks, but this team lacks compelling characters for the most part.  That could be a good or a bad thing, depending on how you look at it.

[Voice_of_Reason]

4 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

KC and Reid have done pretty well without fully investing in their Oline over the years, which is strange after so many great HoF level linemen came from there.

 

Although Jaawan Taylor and Donovan Smith, backed up by Niang and Wayna Morris is definitely better than what we have.

I don’t think we’re going to have some all pro line or anything.  But I think we can have a very good offense with this OL if Howell plays ok, and EB is what we think he is.  
 

We’ll see.  If they can consistently get the ball to Dodson, Samuel, Terry and Gibson in space on the outside, the OL impact is significantly limited.  Throw in some stretch runs and some screens, which are something this OL should be ok at, it’s pretty athletic now, that should be a good complement.

 

Where they will struggle is if they have to protect in straight drop back and probably the straight ahead power run game. 
 

Which could be ok, the Reid WCO tree doesn’t emphasize those elements.

 

The key will be the defense needs to not let teams get a lead.  With the investment on defense, they have to be a top 5 unit and not give up easy points early.  If they do that, the offense can functional normally.  And he pretty good.

 

The huge caveat is Howell has to play at a “good” level.  If he can do that, it will be a “good” offense. 
 

And it damn well better be a great defense.  
 

And if those two things happen, they should win more games than they lose, and I think have a really good shot of going 3-3 in the division.  
 

It’s going to come down to Howell, EB and the defense being elite.  Which again, they have to be.  Too much investment for them not to be a top 5 unit from the opener to the end of the season.  

[skinny21]

9 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I actually really think the OL is going to surprise people this year in a good way IF Howell can execute the WCO somewhat effectively. I might be wrong.  But I have some faith because of the scheme….

I think there are a few/several factors that could make this line look better than (what I expect) their pff scores will be - scheme (as you say), Howell’s running/scrambling ability, our backs ability to break tackles, Howell’s quick release, and YAC/quick separation from our receiving weapons.

 

Of course, the combo of a new system, young qb (who leans aggressive), no real home run threat at rb, no high talent lineman to lean on (slide protections from or run behind)… it’s not hard to imagine this group struggling.  Facing some tough defenses and qbs likely have an effect too.

 

 

If I had to rate these guys individually, it’d probably look like this:

Leno: C to B- (so I’ll go with a C+)

Charles: D to C- (D+)

Gates: C- to C+ (C)

Cosmi: C to B (he’s the one that could have the greatest impact, and could be better than my grade, but with availability issues and position transition, I’m going with C+)

Wylie: C- to C+ (C)

 

Aside from RG, I also don’t see all that much of a drop off to the backups.  Of course, while (my) individual grades might be average, the aforementioned issues probably don’t result in the group as a whole having an average grade.  Lots of potential for variance, so we’ll see.  To your point though, I think they’ll be better than the doom and gloom predictions… maybe not by all that much.

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

@skinny21 the key will be doing what they can do and not doing what they can’t.  
 

Scott Turner was horrendous at that, as it turns out.  The whole concept of the WCO is to minimize the impact of the OL.  
 

If Howell grasps it and gets the ball out, we have really good skill position players who can keep us in good positions.

 

My biggest concern is the learning curve for Howell.  If he plays well, I honestly don’t think the OL will be an issue at all.  Not a strength, but rendered somewhat irrelevant. 
 

If he doesn’t, it’s going to be a mess.  

[skinny21]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

@skinny21 the key will be doing what they can do and not doing what they can’t.  
 

Scott Turner was horrendous at that, as it turns out.  The whole concept of the WCO is to minimize the impact of the OL.  
 

If Howell grasps it and gets the ball out, we have really good skill position players who can keep us in good positions.

 

My biggest concern is the learning curve for Howell.  If he plays well, I honestly don’t think the OL will be an issue at all.  Not a strength, but rendered somewhat irrelevant. 
 

If he doesn’t, it’s going to be a mess.  

Agree with all of this.  It’s a lot for EB to figure out (regarding your 1st sentence especially), but at the same time, it seems to be a major emphasis of his - finding ways to use guys to their strength, and getting there in part by first trying different guys out in different roles/routes/etc.

 

I’m generally pretty optimistic about Howell, with the same caveat about his learning curve.  I’d guess we see flashes of brilliant play, and a lot of steady/solid play.  I also assume we see a fair number of negative plays resulting from over-aggression, over-confidence, mistakes due to learning a new system, and then some plays where he’s just not reading the D correctly.  The latter is where I can see the oline really having an impact on the pass game - not buying him that extra tick to be sure what he’s seeing.  That and their role in the screen game - which, while it should improve with the added focus, was so atrocious under Turner that I don’t know what to expect.  On top of that, we’ll have to see how they perform WRT the ground game.  

For those reasons, along with the talent level, I’m a bit more concerned about the oline than Howell.  Howell’s at least got high end traits/talent that give him a ceiling the oline doesn’t have.  Of course, as you say - with this scheme, the oline’s issues can be hidden more readily than qb issues, so you may well be right to have Howell’s play as the bigger concern.  Personally, I wouldn’t be shocked if we field a top 10 offense, nor would I be shocked if was bottom 10… although the safe bet is probably average-ish.

[Conn]

 

[Going Commando]

Bieniemy has HC written all over him.  Unless he takes over Ron's job, we're just a stop on the way for him.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

Bieniemy has HC written all over him.  Unless he takes over Ron's job, we're just a stop on the way for him.

 

If he does well enough for that to be the case, then we should all be happy with it. It's one of the several win scenarios for us with Bieniemy.

[Conn]

27 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

If he does well enough for that to be the case, then we should all be happy with it. It's one of the several win scenarios for us with Bieniemy.

Not really, I believe a HC/GM candidate needs to be part of the organization for two seasons before the team losing them to a promotion gets draft pick compensation (I assume that’s what you’re referring to). 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

53 minutes ago, Conn said:

Not really, I believe a HC/GM candidate needs to be part of the organization for two seasons before the team losing them to a promotion gets draft pick compensation (I assume that’s what you’re referring to). 

 

I wasn't, but I also didn't know that info. I was thinking more basic along the lines of losing him would mean our offense did well, we'd all take that. It would also mean Howell and the offensive pieces had good years making it seem like a pretty appealing destination. So in theory better quality of candidates to apply.

 

I guess the dream scenario would be Bieniemy turns the offense around, we're good enough with no real FA or cap risks that he thinks he can turn down some crappy HC offers (Arizona) and wait another year as our OC.

 

How desperate is he to be a HC? We all know he's hungry for it, but would he take a gig in cap hell with a bad QB situation and a bad owner?

[Conn]

17 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

I wasn't, but I also didn't know that info. I was thinking more basic along the lines of losing him would mean our offense did well, we'd all take that. It would also mean Howell and the offensive pieces had good years making it seem like a pretty appealing destination. So in theory better quality of candidates to apply.

 

I guess the dream scenario would be Bieniemy turns the offense around, we're good enough with no real FA or cap risks that he thinks he can turn down some crappy HC offers (Arizona) and wait another year as our OC.

 

How desperate is he to be a HC? We all know he's hungry for it, but would he take a gig in cap hell with a bad QB situation and a bad owner?

 

I mean, I don’t see any scenario where he’s our OC next season regardless. That would imply Rivera is still here as the HC which feels implausible. Anyone else is going to bring in their own people. The only way Bieniemy is here longer than a year is if he absolutely kills it with Howell this season, we shock the league on offense, and he somehow gets the HC job  here. Otherwise I can’t see a reality in which he’s still here, right? 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

20 minutes ago, Conn said:

 

I mean, I don’t see any scenario where he’s our OC next season regardless. That would imply Rivera is still here as the HC which feels implausible. Anyone else is going to bring in their own people. The only way Bieniemy is here longer than a year is if he absolutely kills it with Howell this season, we shock the league on offense, and he somehow gets the HC job  here. Otherwise I can’t see a reality in which he’s still here, right? 

 

Why would Rivera still being the HC be implausible? If the new owners think he's turned the team around, then they probably don't fire him. We can say low odds of remaining HC, but I wouldn't say implausible.

 

Harris bought the 76ers, the incumbent coach lasted 2 seasons.

Harris bought the Devils, the incumbent coach lasted 2 seasons.

 

Each scenario wasn't the same either. Doug Collins squeaked into the playoffs right before Harris bought the team. His next season he won a playoff round, and Harris let them be aggressive in moves to take them to another level. It didn't work, they missed the playoffs and were replaced. I don't know enough about Hockey to say, but they missed the playoffs before Harris bought the team, missed it in the first season of ownership but still let the Head Coach stick around for 1 more season. They missed it again and a new head coach was sought.

 

So maybe Harris wants to shake things up as new owner after 1 season (which he had not before). But if the team is trending in the right direction (say make the playoffs), his track record with the 76ers and Devils makes it seem like he would not fire Rivera. I have a hunch that we as fans are a little harsher on Rivera's chances than Harris might be. I think we want to see even more of a positive trend, say not just the playoffs but also a playoff win.

[wit33]

An elite coordinator is the closest asset of value to an elite QB.
 

Come on, EB (and Howell)! The cupboard is full with talent. 

[tmandoug1]

Hope is a beautiful thing. Here's to hoping our Oline gets coached up pretty quick. 

[kingdaddy]

On 6/26/2023 at 2:47 PM, Voice_of_Reason said:

For example, I actually don’t care they spent a 2nd and 3rd on Wentz.  They needed a QB and [REDACTED] could not be an option do they took a shot.  Fine.  

Not fine. Wentz was going to be released and the entire league knew it. We made the desperate move of trading for him rather than waiting to sign him once he came free.