2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

[Skinsinparadise]

On 6/30/2023 at 6:10 AM, Voice_of_Reason said:

That’s actually factually incorrect.  Several credible sources including Keim have said there was another team in play to trade for him.  
 

And they were desperate.  They knew exactly what they had in [REDACTED], which was a lot of suck between some good luck.  Where they were picking the chances of getting a QB in the draft were very minimal and Wilson turned them down and the Seahawks weren’t going to trade him into the NFC anyway. 
 

They had to do something.  If Wentz was released there is no guarantee he signs here. And then you’re stuck with noodle arm bad decision guy who gets bailed out by luck as your starter.  
 

They took a shot.  It didn’t work.  It doesn’t mean it was wrong to take the shot.  
 

With the benefit of hindsight I wish they had  not signed Wentz, cut [REDACTED] and run the wishbone with Robinson and Gibson all year.  

I don’t recall Keim weighing in on that at all and I listen to all his podcasts so guess I missed him slipping that in.

 

The only one I recall mentioning some other teams interest was Russini on Sheehan.

 

I was ok with gambing on Wentz, boom bust player but still relatively young. But I said then it was a dumb deal as for compensation. 
 

Sheehan saying that he heard that they contacted the Colts when they acquired Matt Ryan and asked them about how they got him so cheap is the kicker for me,

 

One move one way or another doesn’t kill a team but this one will likely be in the soup for the multiple reasons why Rivera will likely both lose personnel control and get fired at some point either mid 2023 or more likely early 2024.

 

Rivera IMO isn’t the bad GM that some of his critics say he is and most of the national media  but he’s not much better than just OK at it.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

I am pessimistic that this ends up a playoff year but not as pessimistic as the National media who expect this team to be bad,  I think it’s a so so season.

 

But I admit I am irritated about the Giants getting more respect than us from almost every front.

 

While I do think the Giants brass is smarter than our brass, I still think their roster has ways to go,

 

 

[Koolblue13]

I don't know why the Chargers keep getting so much love. Have to be the most over rated team in the league.

 

[Chris 44]

10 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I don't know why the Chargers keep getting so much love. Have to be the most over rated team in the league.

 

That's pretty impressive right there, sometimes the facts and stats speak for themselves and we shouldn't question logic.

[samy316]

3 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

I don't know why the Chargers keep getting so much love. Have to be the most over rated team in the league.

 

Herbert is saddled with an unbelievably stupid HC, and a franchise with a notoriously cheap owner, and a penchant for choking leads and games.  If Herbert was on a team with more stability, he’d be better off.  Staley was a bad hire by them.  He’s a defensive-minded HC, who gambles WAY too much on 4th Down, and lacks the competency to make 4th Quarter adjustments with the game on the line.  I mentioned several times that Rivera is consensus 1st coach to be fired this year by gambling sites and prediction websites, but Staley should be right there as a candidate to get fired.

Edited July 3, 2023 by samy316

[Koolblue13]

2 minutes ago, samy316 said:

Herbert is saddled with an unbelievably stupid HC, and a franchise with a notoriously cheap owner, and a penchant for choking leads and games.  If Herbert was on a team with more stability, he’d be better off.  Staley was a bad hire by them.  He’s a defensive-minded HC, who gambles WAY too much on 4th Down, and lacks the competency to make 4th Quarter adjustments with the game on the line.  I mentioned several times that Rivera is consensus 1st coach to be fired this year by gambling sites and prediction websites, but Staley should be right there as a candidate to get fired.

Cardinals of the AFC is how I think of them.

[samy316]

9 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Cardinals of the AFC is how I think of them.

I think that’s accurate, but the Chargers make the postseason more often than the Cardinals do.  Both teams’ owners and FO’s are about the same.  If you take away the Kurt Warner-Larry Fitzgerald years, the Cards are right there with the Lions as the worst team historically in the NFL.  The Chargers have had great players and great QB’s, but they’ve never put it all together to win that SB.

 

Like I said, if you look at the Cardinals history pre 2007 (before Warner, Fitzgerald & Bouldin), it’s REALLY bad.  Prior to 2007, I think the only times they had made the postseason post merger were 1974-5, 1982 & 1998.  They were AWFUL in St. Louis, before the team moved to Phoenix in 1988.

Edited July 3, 2023 by samy316

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Herbert is clearly talented, but something isn't quite right if the teams he's leading always disappoint. His only playoffs had a monstrous collapse against Trevor Lawrence. Yet the media talks about Herbert like he's in the AFC championship every year since he was a rookie.

[ClaytoAli]

1 hour ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

Herbert is clearly talented, but something isn't quite right if the teams he's leading always disappoint. His only playoffs had a monstrous collapse against Trevor Lawrence. Yet the media talks about Herbert like he's in the AFC championship every year since he was a rookie.

It really boils down to an abnormal man crush (which is closet €@¥ stuff really).

[Voice_of_Reason]

17 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am pessimistic that this ends up a playoff year but not as pessimistic as the National media who expect this team to be bad,  I think it’s a so so season.

 

But I admit I am irritated about the Giants getting more respect than us from almost every front.

 

While I do think the Giants brass is smarter than our brass, I still think their roster has ways to go,

Eh, I don't really care what the media says about anything because most of them, and by most, I mean like 99.78% in my scientific study, are know nothing nincompoops who just flap their gums to get headlines and have literally no idea what the hell they are talking about.  

They're not as bad as the national weather service, which I swear has a Wheel of Fortune style wheel in the basement and uses it to predict the weather, but it's only slightly better than that.  

 

Some of the analytics people actually at least have a basis to build an argument on.  Most of the others are just useless followers of ... each other.  

 

They just need to go out and win. 

17 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I don’t recall Keim weighing in on that at all and I listen to all his podcasts so guess I missed him slipping that in.

I think it was after, and I really thought it was Keim who somewhat confirmed the Rosini story. Somebody did. And somebody who I trusted because if it was just Rosini reporting it, it doesn't hold any water whatsoever.  If it wasn't Keim, it would have been Standig, maybe JP which would have caused me to believe the story.  

 

I COULD be mis-remembering.  But I ABSOLUTELY remember the story getting a "second."  I thought it was Keim.  If it wasn't, then that's my bad on my memory.  

[HTTSkins]

8 hours ago, samy316 said:

Herbert is saddled with an unbelievably stupid HC, and a franchise with a notoriously cheap owner, and a penchant for choking leads and games.  If Herbert was on a team with more stability, he’d be better off.  Staley was a bad hire by them.  He’s a defensive-minded HC, who gambles WAY too much on 4th Down, and lacks the competency to make 4th Quarter adjustments with the game on the line.  I mentioned several times that Rivera is consensus 1st coach to be fired this year by gambling sites and prediction websites, but Staley should be right there as a candidate to get fired.

The way Ron handled QB is enough to get ****canned; Rung of Honor lol 

[Skinsinparadise]

12 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Eh, I don't really care what the media says about anything because most of them, and by most, I mean like 99.78% in my scientific study, are know nothing nincompoops who just flap their gums to get headlines and have literally no idea what the hell they are talking about.  

They're not as bad as the national weather service, which I swear has a Wheel of Fortune style wheel in the basement and uses it to predict the weather, but it's only slightly better than that.  

 

Some of the analytics people actually at least have a basis to build an argument on.  Most of the others are just useless followers of ... each other.  

 

 

 

National media are generally down about the team, we whine about it (me too) every off season just about -- and they tend to me more likely right than we are about it.  But granted betting against this team has typically been an easy bet so I think they will keep taking that route until the team proves them wrong.

 

The analytics types also mostly think this will be a bad team.  But an outlier or two from PFF for example think they have a shot at the wildcard if everything goes right.

 

12 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

I think it was after, and I really thought it was Keim who somewhat confirmed the Rosini story. Somebody did. And somebody who I trusted because if it was just Rosini reporting it, it doesn't hold any water whatsoever.  If it wasn't Keim, it would have been Standig, maybe JP which would have caused me to believe the story.  

 

 

I don't recall anyone confirming it among my listens.  I think one said there could have been.  Not saying you are wrong.  Just saying somehow that podcast-comment escaped me because it would be something I remember.  But I do trust Russini to some extent.   Keim is the type to confirm things on twitter so maybe he will be asked about it.  But at this point I don't really care too much.

 

Piecing it from Russini's story, my guess is what happened could have been something in the middle.

 

The Steelers poked around on Wentz.  Ballard who knows how to manipulate the trade process and IMO is a smarter than our FO by reputation -- just played up the interest into something bigger than perhaps it was. 

 

It was the perfect storm.  Rivera was feeling desperate.  There was one beat guy forgetting whom who said in the off season that they heard Dan wanted some solution at the QB spot then.  Rivera got rejected from Russell Wilson that off season.  The Raiders were unwilling to trade Carr.  The off season before they got outbid for Stafford and he didn't want to come here.    So with Rivera he didn't want to lose this time and was more than OK to be the highest bidder.

 

I am guessing the mindset was something like this.

 

A.  You need us to eat the whole salary.  No problem.

 

B.  A 2nd-3rd and a 3rd.  You got it.

 

C.  Oh you want to swap 2nd round picks too so you can pick higher in the 2nd in that draft?  You got that, too, buddy.

 

Steelers if you are interested.  Ha!  Match that.  Ballard the whole time playing up how the Steelers are in touch.  And Rivera perhaps sort of still bid against himself because he knew he got outbid before and didn't want to lose out.  

 

lol, I don't know of course that's my theory.  Like you, I liked the Rivera hire.   I still like it in the context of the Dan years.  He was the right guy for that period.  And while I can't wait to see Ron gone I do have warm feelings about him overall.  So its for me maybe my oddest vibe about any cooach we've had.  He was the right captain for that ship IMO.  And bravo for dealing with the crap storm and he did it with likeability and class.   10 out of 10 as to dealing with the dysfunction.

 

But IMO he's the wrong guy going forward.  Not good enough to compete with the other FOs in this division. And he IMO has no clue about how to deal with what he whines about which is getting the fans back to the stands.  So while Rivera was a 9 out 10 for me as to being the right coach for that last Dan era.  But I am a 15 out of 10 about wanting him going in 2024 unless he surprises this season. 

Edited July 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[88Comrade2000]

This franchise needs to move on from all the Dan hires , as soon as it’s feasible.

 

We will not move forward with the Dan hires.  Come January, clean house.

 

Even if Ron did well enough to earn a shot at his final year, anyone really think he would do better in 24? He would likely regress.

 

 

[Koolblue13]

58 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

This franchise needs to move on from all the Dan hires , as soon as it’s feasible.

 

We will not move forward with the Dan hires.  Come January, clean house.

 

Even if Ron did well enough to earn a shot at his final year, anyone really think he would do better in 24? He would likely regress.

 

 

I don't know how Ron hurt you so deeply, but I can't wait to see who you focus on next.

[Chris 44]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

I don't know how Ron hurt you so deeply, but I can't wait to see who you focus on next.

I think SIP summed it up (Ron) perfectly in a post earlier today.

[Conn]

 

[actorguy1]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

National media are generally down about the team, we whine about it (me too) every off season just about -- and they tend to me more likely right than we are about it.  But granted betting against this team has typically been an easy bet so I think they will keep taking that route until the team proves them wrong.

 

The analytics types also mostly think this will be a bad team.  But an outlier or two from PFF for example think they have a shot at the wildcard if everything goes right.

 

 

I don't recall anyone confirming it among my listens.  I think one said there could have been.  Not saying you are wrong.  Just saying somehow that podcast-comment escaped me because it would be something I remember.  But I do trust Russini to some extent.   Keim is the type to confirm things on twitter so maybe he will be asked about it.  But at this point I don't really care too much.

 

Piecing it from Russini's story, my guess is what happened could have been something in the middle.

 

The Steelers poked around on Wentz.  Ballard who knows how to manipulate the trade process and IMO is a smarter than our FO by reputation -- just played up the interest into something bigger than perhaps it was. 

 

It was the perfect storm.  Rivera was feeling desperate.  There was one beat guy forgetting whom who said in the off season that they heard Dan wanted some solution at the QB spot then.  Rivera got rejected from Russell Wilson that off season.  The Raiders were unwilling to trade Carr.  The off season before they got outbid for Stafford and he didn't want to come here.    So with Rivera he didn't want to lose this time and was more than OK to be the highest bidder.

 

I am guessing the mindset was something like this.

 

A.  You need us to eat the whole salary.  No problem.

 

B.  A 2nd-3rd and a 3rd.  You got it.

 

C.  Oh you want to swap 2nd round picks too so you can pick higher in the 2nd in that draft?  You got that, too, buddy.

 

Steelers if you are interested.  Ha!  Match that.  Ballard the whole time playing up how the Steelers are in touch.  And Rivera perhaps sort of still bid against himself because he knew he got outbid before and didn't want to lose out.  

 

lol, I don't know of course that's my theory.  Like you, I liked the Rivera hire.   I still like it in the context of the Dan years.  He was the right guy for that period.  And while I can't wait to see Ron gone I do have warm feelings about him overall.  So its for me maybe my oddest vibe about any cooach we've had.  He was the right captain for that ship IMO.  And bravo for dealing with the crap storm and he did it with likeability and class.   10 out of 10 as to dealing with the dysfunction.

 

But IMO he's the wrong guy going forward.  Not good enough to compete with the other FOs in this division. And he IMO has no clue about how to deal with what he whines about which is getting the fans back to the stands.  So while Rivera was a 9 out 10 for me as to being the right coach for that last Dan era.  But I am a 15 out of 10 about wanting him going in 2024 unless he surprises this season. 

Keim confirmed in the Zoom call I had with him that once Stafford/Lions turned them down it was Wentz or bust. There was no way they were going to let Wentz get traded elsewhere or get released to FA.

[Conn]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

49 minutes ago, actorguy1 said:

Keim confirmed in the Zoom call I had with him that once Stafford/Lions turned them down it was Wentz or bust. There was no way they were going to let Wentz get traded elsewhere or get released to FA.

 

That seems to register.

 

Heck if you are trying to sell a house to get one eager bidder to go nuts you just need a little bite from another potential bidder.

 

I suspect that if the Steelers were the other bidder they weren't uber serious.  Otherwise you'd have had the ones who typically are all over those type of stories like Schefter and Breer, etc, talking about it then or later.

 

Heck Schefter was the one aside from Keim pumping up this teams interest in Wentz before the deal happened and I don't recall him mentioning another team hot for Wentz.

 

Don't get me wrong, I do believe Russini in her mentioning another team's interest but she also didn't suggest they were hotly interested.

 

My guess is the Steelers generally inquired.  And Ballard miked that interest with Rivera and the FO and basically took them to the cleaners.  And there is some narrative that Dan had an interest here (according to an ESPN story) so it would be on brand for Dan to have a whatever it takes approach to a trade.  And that Dan would be taken to the cleaners on another trade.   The only trade I can think of that was a clear with for this team under Dan was the Santana Moss deal.  Most of the others were somewhere on the scale to bad to comically bad.

 

It's ironic that Dan's last comments I can think of about the team centered on "we finally have a QB" and suggested he's expecting big attendance.  While what happened was they ended up dead last in attendance and Wentz was a total flop.  Feels fitting to end the Dan era.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[actorguy1]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

My guess is the Steelers generally inquired.  And Ballard miked that interest with Rivera and the FO and basically took them to the cleaners.  And there is some narrative that Dan had an interest here (according to an ESPN story) so it would be on brand for Dan to have a whatever it takes approach to a trade.  And that Dan would be taken to the cleaners on another trade.   The only trade I can think of that was a clear with for this team under Dan was the Santana Moss deal.  Most of the others were somewhere on the scale to bad to comically bad.

 

It's ironic that Dan's last comments I can think of about the team centered on "we finally have a QB" and suggested he's expecting big attendance.  While what happened was they ended up dead last in attendance and Wentz was a total flop.  Feels fitting to end the Dan era.

I feel Keim implied that Snyder WAS applying pressure to Rivera to make sure they got Wentz

[Skinsinparadise]

25 minutes ago, actorguy1 said:

I feel Keim implied that Snyder WAS applying pressure to Rivera to make sure they got Wentz

 

I got that same vibe.  It's on brand for Snyder -- bad move at the QB spot, overpaying for the deal -- and then some bravado about the deal.  "We finally got a QB."

 

Like I said, while I'd like to see Rivera gone in 2024, unless he surprises this season -- I only have good feelings about the job he's done factoring in context.  But IMO he's not the right guy to go forward IMO for two reasons. 

 

1.  He's competent but not IMO on par with the other three FOs in this division.  IMO Eagles coaching and FO > Rivera.  Giants coaching and FO > Rivera.  Cowboys FO > Rivera.   

 

2.  Harris IMO needs to generate some fan excitement and bring casual fans back to the fold.  Rivera IMO is as clueless as it gets on that front.  IMO he's beyond clueless but is an actual liability on this issue.  

 

But he was IMO perfect for Dan's last run.  He was as good as Dan was going to get.  And he brought good culture and class in the middle of a crap storm.

 

As Keim said in a recent podcast, there is a Dan factor that impinges on people who work there.  So I got no doubt Ron would have been better, ditto all our other coaches without Dan in the fold.  But IMO I've seen enough of the movie with Ron that I think he has a ceiling.  And if Harris wants to get this organization back with some fan excitement, the 7-9 --8-8-1 stuff won't do it -- and that goes double because of Ron's vanilla style that doesn't transcend the records.  

 

Having said that if Ron surprised this season it will be interesting.  Keim did say in his last podcast that there is a good vibe around the team.  So that's good.  I am typically slightly more optimistic about the season than I should be.  This time I am more optimistic than the national media is about this team -- and about the same as the local media.   

 

Luck is always a factor.  If all the ifs and buts end up candy and nuts they can end up in the playoffs.  I don't expect that.  But the thing that makes football a great game is it can be unpredictable.  We had bad karma as to luck under Dan and with him gone maybe that luck factor changes?

Edited July 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

6 hours ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

This franchise needs to move on from all the Dan hires , as soon as it’s feasible.

 

We will not move forward with the Dan hires.  Come January, clean house.

 

Even if Ron did well enough to earn a shot at his final year, anyone really think he would do better in 24? He would likely regress.

 

 

 

If they make the playoffs, especially if they win a game in the post season, I think he's slam dunk coming back.

 

It would likely mean Howell showed something and Ron was vindicated on the O line.

 

I don't expect them to make the playoffs so I doubt that happens.  But if they did, I think you likely see some continuity.  

 

Said differenty, the typical fan I believe hates Dan.  There is an overhang about Dan that everyone is worse working under him.  So if this group has a good season, I'd think the average fan will have a good feeling about them versus wanting to break it all up and start all over.

 

One poster here who I respect, I can tell for example is irritated at people like myself for wanting to move on because they believe in continuity and letting the script play out eveything being equal.  I agree with him about continuity.   I just don't expect a big season and if its same old same old -- to me its a no brainer to move on.

 

But if they have a shock winning season and make a little post season noise, I'd think Ron is 100% coming back if he wants to come back.  I'd be cool with it under that context.  I am just not expecting it to play out like that. 

Edited July 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[MartinC]

If we win a playoff game Rivera and the coaching staff absolutely deserve to come back. But for that to happen Howell has played well and the offense overall has performed well. In that scenario though EB likely gets HC opportunities so continuity might be harder to achieve.

 

I don’t see a playoff run coming this season though - a lot of things have to go right for that to happen. I don’t see us picking high in the top ten either.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, Conn said:

 

 

 

I am intrigued by Howell.    Should be fun.

 

Hopefully he has a chance to get rid of the ball though.  I listened to B. Thon, O line guru on Standig's latest podcast.  Add him to the pile of those who think this O line is "meh" at best.

 

 

 

[MrJL]

15 minutes ago, MartinC said:

If we win a playoff game Rivera and the coaching staff absolutely deserve to come back. But for that to happen Howell has played well and the offense overall has performed well. In that scenario though EB likely gets HC opportunities so continuity might be harder to achieve.

 

I don’t see a playoff run coming this season though - a lot of things have to go right for that to happen. I don’t see us picking high in the top ten either.

 

almost like we're the same team we have been and so picking 15th to 18th is a perfectly reasonable expectation