Sam's Club: The Legend of Samuel Howell Thread

[wit33]

Brisset represents the veteran stair stepping boxer who the young guy must beat along the way. Take him out Howell, hopefully in impressive knockout fashion. 
 

If Howell beats out Jacoby that projects to be a HUGE win. Jacoby is QB that can beat your favorite top 17 QB. 

Edited March 29, 2023 by wit33

[Morneblade]

3 hours ago, wit33 said:

Brisset represents the veteran stair stepping boxer who the young guy must beat along the way. Take him out Howell, hopefully in impressive knockout fashion. 
 

If Howell beats out Jacoby that projects to be a HUGE win. Jacoby is QB that can beat your favorite top 17 QB. 

 

I agree with this assessment. Not only that, he's a vet that has shown a willingness to help a younger player out.

Everything I have heard about him says he's a good dude, has some of the same moxie of TH but......

 

has a NFL arm.

 

I'm sure the hope is that Sam beats him out. But if he doesn't, Jacoby played pretty well last year.

[smithmal]

I have mixed feelings about Brissett.

 

On the one hand JB is:

1. A great team player - this means he shows leadership qualities, plays within the scheme and knows his role

2. He's got a decent NFL arm - throws a "catchable ball." He has a relatively fast release, throws with medium velocity and generally steps into his throws so they don't tend to sail like TH. 

3. He's conservative with his decision making and picks his spots - known for being responsible with the ball.  His career TD to INTs is 48:23.

4. He's a proven vet - he's been "around the block" so he should be used to picking up new a playbook.  Since 2016 he's played in 76 games.

5. He's generally cool under pressure - he shows a certain amount of escapability and protects himself when on the run (gets whats given to him and then slides to live another day).

 

On the other hand JB is:

1. A career backup QB - he has played for 5 teams since 2016.  JB had 4 seasons to prove himself with the Colts and they seemingly always were looking to replace him.  Similar to TH, JB is a high level backup, low level starter.  His win-loss record is not great: 35-41.  However JB has played for some pretty bad teams (Colts, Miami and Browns).  He had no chance at the Patriots (where he was drafted) as he was behind Brady and Garoppolo and Belichik did him a favor by trading him to the Colts.    

2. He's a 8 million dollar one year rental - JB came here specifically because he believes there is an opportunity to start.  JB is a mediocre QB and is most definitely the worst QB in the NFC East.  JB will most likely will be gone next year along with RR and RR's whole coaching and admin staff.

3. Due to his experience JB should beat out SH during training camp and become QB1 - for this very reason I'd rather have kept TH vs. signed JB.  TH was not a threat to SH (unless SH totally s#$ts the bed).  TH was a good mentor for SH and most likely would have been more of an asset to SH than JB as SH learns a new playbook.  RR has to hope the SH somehow has a great season and WASH sneaks into the playoffs (which is very unlikely).  

 

As I've mentioned before statistically TH and JB are very similar:

TH career stats: https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/taylor-heinicke/

JB career stats: https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/jacoby-brissett/

 

Although TH is a poorer thrower than JB, he's more clutch and tends to be at his best when the game is on the line.  TH had a much better win/loss record vs. JB in '22 and played in a much more difficult division.  RR should have saved himself a couple of million, kept TH and put the savings toward extending Curl who is the most important player on their defense.

 

Realistic Expectation with JB and SH:

So, essentially I don't expect JB to work out @ WASH.  I expect WASH to not make the playoffs (again) and JB will be looking for another team next year.  That being said, he's making 8 mil for a one year rental.  JB should have a chance to start.  He has decent offensive specialty players to get the ball to so it makes sense the JB would want to come here and use WASH as recruitment material for his next team.

 

My hope is that WASH's offensive line gets better, SH starts some games and further builds his confidence and is ready to really shine in '24 with a new coach and GM.  In hindsight RR should have put SH in during week 6 against CHI during the past season.  CHI stunk at the time and it would have given SH a great opportunity to win his first game and start his career off on a good foot.  If RR was honest with himself he should have seen the writing on wall with CW during training camp which was in full display during the 4 game skid during the early part of the season.  RR knew what kind of player TH was so there was no reason to go back to that well (which he did anyway to try and save his job).  His only hope was to give SH experience with the possibility that he would become a good QB in '23.  RR acted more like a Coach then a Team President (which is why it's a bad idea to make your Coach the Team President).  RR blew it and fell prey to his own ego regarding his over protection of CW and last ditch effort to start him against the Browns. 

 

RR's fatal flaw during his time here in WASH was essentially his first decision out of the gate:  he should have traded back and drafted Herbert in '20 instead of Young when he had the opportunity to possibly get a franchise QB.  He had a #2 pick in the draft allowing him to get a top shelf rookie QB and had zero reasons to keep either DH and AS as QB choices for WASH since he wasn't involved with their drafting or trade acquisition.  He stepped into a situation that any new coach would like when starting the beginning of a coaching era (opportunity to draft a young gifted QB with a struggling team that needs a total rebuild).  Ever since that failed decision WASH has been treading water.  RR's mentality to build a team first and then plug a QB later is fool's gold.  Finding a decent franchise QB has proven to be very difficult.  RR thought he could pull a Brady in TB (who is the GOAT so that is totally unrealistic) or a Stafford in LA (who excelled specifcally b/c of the genius of HC/OS SM) but that was never going to happen once RR decided to hand the keys of the offense over to a totally inexperienced ST as the team's OC (which, BTW was RR's 2nd big mistake).  That being said, RR's mistakes as WASH's Team President are one of the reasons that DS is selling the team so RR can at least put that feather in his hat when he looks back at his time in WASH. 

 

Unfortunately '23 will be a wasted year for WASH's really good defense and pretty good WR and RB squads.  WASH will once again be starting over in '24 with a new coaching staff and owner and my hope is that SH will display good enough tape in '23 and that the new coach will decide to make him as QB1 in '24.  Since RR is playing for his job/legacy WASH will not be bad enough to get one of the talented rookie QB's available at the top of the '24 draft so basically for WASH's new coach and GM it's SH or a vet retread.   

Edited April 5, 2023 by smithmal

[Warhead36]

With Brisett you can win 8 or 9 games. There is no real reason to play him unless Howell just looks abhorently awful in camp/preseason etc. You play the young guy and take a home run shot.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Oh my God. 

 

If anyone, ANYONE, starts talking about Cam as a possibility for a backup for Sam Howell, I hope they stub their toe on their coffee table.

 

 

 

[Warhead36]

Cam is completely washed. I'd take he who shall not be named over him.

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

16 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Cam is completely washed. I'd take he who shall not be named over him.

I almost had to ask who you were talking about. Thank God that didn't occur.

[veteranskinsfan]

On 4/3/2023 at 12:18 PM, smithmal said:

I have mixed feelings about Brissett.

 

On the one hand JB is:

1. A great team player - this means he shows leadership qualities, plays within the scheme and knows his role

2. He's got a decent NFL arm - throws a "catchable ball." He has a relatively fast release, throws with medium velocity and generally steps into his throws so they don't tend to sail like TH. 

3. He's conservative with his decision making and picks his spots - known for being responsible with the ball.  His career TD to INTs is 48:23.

4. He's a proven vet - he's been "around the block" so he should be used to picking up new a playbook.  Since 2016 he's played in 76 games.

5. He's generally cool under pressure - he shows a certain amount of escapability and protects himself when on the run (gets whats given to him and then slides to live another day).

 

On the other hand JB is:

1. A career backup QB - he has played for 5 teams since 2016.  JB had 4 seasons to prove himself with the Colts and they seemingly always were looking to replace him.  Similar to TH, JB is a high level backup, low level starter.  His win-loss record is not great: 35-41.  However JB has played for some pretty bad teams (Colts, Miami and Browns).  He had no chance at the Patriots (where he was drafted) as he was behind Brady and Garoppolo and Belichik did him a favor by trading him to the Colts.    

2. He's a 8 million dollar one year rental - JB came here specifically because he believes there is an opportunity to start.  JB is a mediocre QB and is most definitely the worst QB in the NFC East.  JB will most likely will be gone next year along with RR and RR's whole coaching and admin staff.

3. Due to his experience JB should beat out SH during training camp and become QB1 - for this very reason I'd rather have kept TH vs. signed JB.  TH was not a threat to SH (unless SH totally s#$ts the bed).  TH was a good mentor for SH and most likely would have been more of an asset to SH than JB as SH learns a new playbook.  RR has to hope the SH somehow has a great season and WASH sneaks into the playoffs (which is very unlikely).  

 

As I've mentioned before statistically TH and JB are very similar:

TH career stats: https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/taylor-heinicke/

JB career stats: https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/jacoby-brissett/

 

Although TH is a poorer thrower than JB, he's more clutch and tends to be at his best when the game is on the line.  TH had a much better win/loss record vs. JB in '22 and played in a much more difficult division.  RR should have saved himself a couple of million, kept TH and put the savings toward extending Curl who is the most important player on their defense.

 

Realistic Expectation with JB and SH:

So, essentially I don't expect JB to work out @ WASH.  I expect WASH to not make the playoffs (again) and JB will be looking for another team next year.  That being said, he's making 8 mil for a one year rental.  JB should have a chance to start.  He has decent offensive specialty players to get the ball to so it makes sense the JB would want to come here and use WASH as recruitment material for his next team.

 

My hope is that WASH's offensive line gets better, SH starts some games and further builds his confidence and is ready to really shine in '24 with a new coach and GM.  In hindsight RR should have put SH in during week 6 against CHI during the past season.  CHI stunk at the time and it would have given SH a great opportunity to win his first game and start his career off on a good foot.  If RR was honest with himself he should have seen the writing on wall with CW during training camp which was in full display during the 4 game skid during the early part of the season.  RR knew what kind of player TH was so there was no reason to go back to that well (which he did anyway to try and save his job).  His only hope was to give SH experience with the possibility that he would become a good QB in '23.  RR acted more like a Coach then a Team President (which is why it's a bad idea to make your Coach the Team President).  RR blew it and fell prey to his own ego regarding his over protection of CW and last ditch effort to start him against the Browns. 

 

RR's fatal flaw during his time here in WASH was essentially his first decision out of the gate:  he should have traded back and drafted Herbert in '20 instead of Young when he had the opportunity to possibly get a franchise QB.  He had a #2 pick in the draft allowing him to get a top shelf rookie QB and had zero reasons to keep either DH and AS as QB choices for WASH since he wasn't involved with their drafting or trade acquisition.  He stepped into a situation that any new coach would like when starting the beginning of a coaching era (opportunity to draft a young gifted QB with a struggling team that needs a total rebuild).  Ever since that failed decision WASH has been treading water.  RR's mentality to build a team first and then plug a QB later is fool's gold.  Finding a decent franchise QB has proven to be very difficult.  RR thought he could pull a Brady in TB (who is the GOAT so that is totally unrealistic) or a Stafford in LA (who excelled specifcally b/c of the genius of HC/OS SM) but that was never going to happen once RR decided to hand the keys of the offense over to a totally inexperienced ST as the team's OC (which, BTW was RR's 2nd big mistake).  That being said, RR's mistakes as WASH's Team President are one of the reasons that DS is selling the team so RR can at least put that feather in his hat when he looks back at his time in WASH. 

 

Unfortunately '23 will be a wasted year for WASH's really good defense and pretty good WR and RB squads.  WASH will once again be starting over in '24 with a new coaching staff and owner and my hope is that SH will display good enough tape in '23 and that the new coach will decide to make him as QB1 in '24.  Since RR is playing for his job/legacy WASH will not be bad enough to get one of the talented rookie QB's available at the top of the '24 draft so basically for WASH's new coach and GM it's SH or a vet retread.   

RR is a defensive head coach.  I am not surprised that he has blown the quarterback situation every year since he has been here.  If this team had picked an offensive head coach then we would have had a better chance to find a top 15 quarterback.  Ron has no problem rewarding his top defensive players when they perform well.  He knows defense but relying on Norv's son was a huge tactical mistake.  2023 could be a wasted year if Howell is not able to get the job done.  I do not expect the new owner to retain Ron even if he makes the first round of the playoffs this year. 

Hope he and the rest of the front office management do not sign Chase Young to a huge contract this year because it would be a mistake until we see how he performs this coming season.

Edited April 6, 2023 by veteranskinsfan
line spacing

[smithmal]

Actually, I am surprised the RR made the QB decisions he made even though he is a defensive minded coach.  RR has constantly tried to validate his personnel decisions while being the Team President here @ WASH by harkening back to what he did in Carolina.

 

What RR did was he took over a crap team that had a high draft pick.  He then drafted Newton, had him on a relatively cheap rookie QB contract and rode with him until his wheels fell off.  That strategy proved to be relatively successful.  He got fired from Caronlina specifically because of CN's injuries and a lack a decent backup replacement which led to losing games.  Losing Newton to injuries and having little QB talent to fall back on should have revalidated to RR why it's so important to get talented QB in place as quickly as possible.  I will add that it didn't help that Newton went down due to injuries the same season that Carolina got new ownership and RR became the scape goat.

 

RR then comes here and it is literally a mirror image to the start of his Carolina career: Crap team in need of a rebuild, ownership of a high draft choice and a team without a good QB on the roster.  So, what does RR do?  He drafts a DE with the #2 pick.  The effect that a QB has on a team is way larger than what a DE has on a team.  Why he didn't replicate his Carolina QB drafting experience when first taking over the WRs is a mystery. 

 

The only thing I can think of is that he didn't want to piss off Synder because DH was hand picked by him during the previous draft.  Personally that experience with Synder directly interferring with the draft selection should have sent RR running for the hills.  Regardless draft scouts all over the league (including WR scouts) were really unimpressed with the DH pick.  Internally the VP of Player Personnel (Kyle Smith) and all  the WR scouts were really pissed off regarding Synder's interference during the 2020 draft.  RR could have easily used this as a reason alone to move on from DH but he choose not to. I'm sure, if RR cared to ask, there were red flags regarding DH's maturity/talent that reared its head during DH's rookie season but since his rookie season was a team-wide giant cluster any issues that DH exhibited were probably low on everyone's radar.

 

Regardless, the formula to create a winning NFL team is pretty simple and clear: Fielding a winning, competetive team = having a good to great QB.  Fielding a mediocre teams = average to poor QB.  The best you can hope for sometimes is having a really bad team (which RR had when he took over the WRs).  Then at least you have the opportunity to draft a quality rookie QB which hopefully, can turn a team into a consistant competitive playoff team for years to come.

 

Regardless, RR is going to replicate the following Carolina experience:  a new owner is going to take over the team that he is coaching and RR is going to get fired.     

Edited April 7, 2023 by smithmal

[MrJL]

On 4/3/2023 at 12:18 PM, smithmal said:

 

RR's fatal flaw during his time here in WASH was essentially his first decision out of the gate:  he should have traded back and drafted Herbert in '20 instead of Young when he had the opportunity to possibly get a franchise QB.  He had a #2 pick in the draft allowing him to get a top shelf rookie QB and had zero reasons to keep either DH and AS as QB choices for WASH since he wasn't involved with their drafting or trade acquisition.  He stepped into a situation that any new coach would like when starting the beginning of a coaching era (opportunity to draft a young QB with a struggling team that needs a total rebuild).  Ever since that failed decision WASH has been treading water.  RR's mentality to build a team first and then plug a QB later is fool's gold.  Finding a decent franchise QB has proven to be very difficult.  RR thought he could pull a Brady in TB (who is the GOAT so that is totally unrealistic) or a Stafford in LA (who excelled specifcally b/c of the genius of HC/OS SM) but that was never going to happen once RR decided to hand the keys of the offense over to a totally inexperienced ST as the team's OC (which, BTW was RR's 2nd big mistake).  That being said, RR's mistakes as WASH's Team President are one of the reasons that DS is selling the team so RR can at least put that feather in his hat when he looks back at his time in WASH. 

 

  

 

that was never going to happen and was almost totally impossible.  Justin Herbert was picked at 6.  We trade to after 6, he's gone.  That means we can trade back that far and no farther.    If we trade with the Lions we're taking Tua.  We gonna trade with the Giants?  Let them take Chase?  We're still taking Tua, unless fear broken legs in a division with Chase Young makes us wimp out and take Herbert. Maybe we trade back to 5 and let the Dolphins take Tua at 2. Then we could take Herbert.  If the Chargers can't swing a deal with the Lions or Giants, who would still get their guy OR Chase Young, and get some extra picks. Or we could deal with the Chargers.  And they either take Tua or Herbert and the Dolphins take the other one and we have some extra picks, but we're stuck drafting Andrew Thomas with the 6th pick.  The only way this works is if we swing some complicated deal with both the Lions and either the Dolphins or Chargers to trade out of 2 but back up to 3 immediately

[Warhead36]

16 minutes ago, MrJL said:

 

that was never going to happen and was almost totally impossible.  Justin Herbert was picked at 6.  We trade to after 6, he's gone.  That means we can trade back that far and no farther.    If we trade with the Lions we're taking Tua.  We gonna trade with the Giants?  Let them take Chase?  We're still taking Tua, unless fear broken legs in a division with Chase Young makes us wimp out and take Herbert. Maybe we trade back to 5 and let the Dolphins take Tua at 2. Then we could take Herbert.  If the Chargers can't swing a deal with the Lions or Giants, who would still get their guy OR Chase Young, and get some extra picks. Or we could deal with the Chargers.  And they either take Tua or Herbert and the Dolphins take the other one and we have some extra picks, but we're stuck drafting Andrew Thomas with the 6th pick.  The only way this works is if we swing some complicated deal with both the Lions and either the Dolphins or Chargers to trade out of 2 but back up to 3 immediately

Its way too much hindsight talking and hypotheticals. Its pointless to discuss.

 

Yes it sucks we passed up on Herbert. But what's done is done and the fact is he was not looked at as some sure fire QB hotshot prospect at the time. 

[mistertim]

3 hours ago, smithmal said:

Actually, I am surprised the RR made the QB decisions he made even though he is a defensive minded coach.  RR has constantly tried to validate his personnel decisions while being the Team President here @ WASH by harkening back to what he did in Carolina.

 

What RR did was he took over a crap team that had a high draft pick.  He then drafted Newton, had him on a relatively cheap rookie QB contract and rode with him until his wheels fell off.  That strategy provided to be relatively successful.  He got fired from Caronlina specifically because of CN's injuries and a lack a decent backup replacement which led to losing games.  Losing Newton to injuries and having little QB talent to fall back on should have revalidated to RR why it's so important to get talented QB in place as quickly as possible.  I will add that it didn't help that Newton went down due to injuries the same season that Carolina got new ownership and RR became the scape goat.

 

RR then comes here and it is literally a mirror image to the start of his Carolina career: Crap team in need of a rebuild, ownership of a high draft choice and a team without a good QB on the roster.  So, what does RR do?  He drafts a DE with the #2 pick.  The effect that a QB has on a team is way larger than what a DE has on a team.  Why he didn't replicate his Carolina QB drafting experience when first taking over the WRs is a mystery. 

 

The only thing I can think of is that he didn't want to piss off Synder because DH was hand picked by him during the previous draft.  Personally that experience with Synder directly interferring with the draft selection should have sent RR running for the hills.  Regardless draft scouts all over the league (including WR scouts) were really unimpressed with the DH pick.  Internally the VP of Player Personnel (Kyle Smith) and all  the WR scouts were really pissed off regarding Synder's interference during the 2020 draft.  RR could have easily used this as a reason alone to move on from DH but he choose not to. I'm sure, if RR cared to ask, there were red flags regarding DH's maturity/talent that reared its head during DH's rookie season but since his rookie season was a team-wide giant cluster any issues that DH exhibited were probably low on everyone's radar.

 

Regardless, the formula to create a winning NFL team is pretty simple and clear: Fielding a winning, competetive team = having a good to great QB.  Fielding a mediocre teams = average to poor QB.  The best you can hope for sometimes is having a really bad team (which RR had when he took over the WRs).  Then at least you have the opportunity to draft a quality rookie QB which hopefully, can turn a team into a consistant competitive playoff team for years to come.

 

Regardless, RR is going to replicate the following Carolina experience:  a new owner is going to take over the team that he is coaching and RR is going to get fired.     

 

I think a way more likely scenario is that Ron and the coaching staff didn't see a QB they liked enough at #2 overall, there was no way to trade up to #1, and we didn't get any blockbuster offers from teams looking to move up to #2, so we went with what was seen as a very good and safe pick with CY.

 

IIRC the coaches later said they really loved Burrow but they knew Cincy was going to take them so he was pretty much out of the question. There were reports that we weren't very high on Tua, mostly due to injury concerns, and that some people in the building liked Herbert but some didn't (which was actually pretty common around the league...he was never seen as any sort of slam dunk pick) so they didn't think he was worth it at #2.

 

Which is, of course, not true in hindsight. But if we lived in a world with hindsight we would have taken Aaron Rodgers at #9 in 2005 and probably been a contender for over a decade, and then traded three 1st round picks to move up and draft Mahomes as his replacement in 2017.

[DWinzit]

5 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

Cam is completely washed. I'd take he who shall not be named over him.

Amazing that he has put a list together and made an official announcement. It is not a good look.

 

He still probably has something in the tank for someone, probably down the line after injuries. 

 

I am betting that list gets expanded

 

[Warhead36]

45 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Amazing that he has put a list together and made an official announcement. It is not a good look.

 

He still probably has something in the tank for someone, probably down the line after injuries. 

 

I am betting that list gets expanded

 

He basically made a list of all the bad/unproven QBs, assuming he can beat them out for a job.

 

Dude couldn't even beat out mediocrity like Mac Jones and Bailey Zappe. 

 

He needs to shut up and retire. He's finished.

[Skinsinparadise]

Some Howell in this mix

 

 

 

[kingdaddy]

1 hour ago, DWinzit said:

Amazing that he has put a list together and made an official announcement. It is not a good look.

 

He still probably has something in the tank for someone, probably down the line after injuries. 

 

I am betting that list gets expanded

 

Call me crazy but I think Cam has value as a wildcat, redzone option like the Saints use Taysom Hill. Not saying I want him but I could see a team using his skills in certain packages where he is a run/pass threat in short yardage. He's very, very good in short yardage situations. Take a team like the Steelers for instance, they could throw Newton out there in certain looks where maybe Pickett doesn't have to do as much in short yardage situations. 

[smithmal]

I wonder who EB would rather start, SH or JB?  

 

Personally I would think the safer bet would be with SH.  If it works out he looks great and either gets a HC job next year somewhere else or maybe stays @ WASH and becomes the eventual RR HC successor.  Even if the end of the year offensive stats look halfway decent (say WASH offense is rated between 13-20) that's far better than what they had before and EB would have done it with a totally unproven QB.

 

Maybe JB will surprise us.  Maybe he'll be the next coming of Geno Smith but its unlikely.  He's had more than enough time to hit his ceiling so I think what JB is now is what he is.  I think he's servicable but he's not going to win games in the clutch, he's not going to put a team on his back and he's not going to make the players around him better.  He's mediocre (which is fine for a backup) and WASH has lived in the land of mediocre for the past 30 years.

 

I find it very doubtful that WASH will be able to beat out the Giants for third place in the division let alone leapfrog over Dallas or Philly.  

Edited April 7, 2023 by smithmal

[Voice_of_Reason]

On 4/6/2023 at 11:10 AM, Spaceman Spiff said:

If anyone, ANYONE, starts talking about Cam as a possibility for a backup for Sam Howell, I hope they stub their toe on their coffee table.

 

For clarity, I am not the “you” in the gif above.

 

that's what should happen after the tie stubbing.

Edited April 8, 2023 by Voice_of_Reason