Next Day Thread: Lions Command Respect

[Commander PK]

My biggest issues are 1.) How does a Ron Rivera/Jack Del Rio defense STILL look this inept 3 years in? and 2.) Why do we consistently have games where they **** the bed in one half.  Sometimes the first half, sometimes the second half.  Today they dug a hole they had little chance of coming out of.  I’m happy with the 2nd half offensive production, but why did it have to come to that to get it?  
 

I want to believe in them, but every time I do they show me again why I should not.
 

It’s frustrating as hell.  

[Fan since a Fetus]

Why does it always take a half for any Washington football team for the past 30+ years to figure out how to play? It’s like every coach that comes through has never learned how to adjust on the fly.

 

The announcers and I’m paraphrasing, said today that “Washington offense is starting to do something now that the Lions aren’t being as aggressive.” Why can we not see that they are playing aggressive and adjust? Why must we wait for half time? We have lost so many games because of this. 
 

 

Also, this defense is pretty much on par with what I expected. The defense needs an overhaul. There are around 5 players I would keep and the upwards of around, mmmmm, 0 defensive coaches.

[El Mexican]

I have rarely seen a more pathetic team effort than today. The first half was beyond anything I could have imagined.

 

When you go into the half down 22 the writing is basically on the wall. That's a coaching issue.

It's not the first time we see this from HC, though. Seems like the status quo.

 

And let's not talk about the talent factor. Detroit's players looked superior in every important position.

We have a huge talent gap that is now impossible to ignore. Took three years but there it is. Clear as day.

 

This will be along season. Funny thing is I don't care anymore. Too much mediocrity has a limit and this season I have reached that limit.

Twenty plus years of this Snyderian crap is enough.

 

I will actively root for this team to tank and be happy for another L.

 

There. I said it. Hail to the Commodores. 

Edited September 19, 2022 by El Mexican

[zCommander]

7 hours ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

I hate football. 
 

that’s my takeaway. That’s all. 

 

And yet you continue to work for the team 

[dyst]

Those Micah tweets - a few of our fans are just gonna lose their **** over them lol

[88Comrade2000]

1 hour ago, TChaler70 said:

Ron made a big deal about year 3 because he felt he had to but really it is about year 4. You have a QB now, Wentz can play and the offense has its weapons signed for a few more years and I think we may have an awesome RB. It needs to be all about D, D coaching, and D players for the next year then we will have turned the corner.

We aren’t turning any corner with Ron, Jack. 23 under Ron won’t be any different than 20-22.

[fearlessNelms]

Obviously, the game was lost in the first half- we were completely unprepared and uninspired. That falls on both the coaches and the players. Detroit was playing at a different speed than us and were flying around there like their hair was on fire- in all three phases. 

 

We made it a little interesting in the 2nd half, but every time it looked like we might have a shot to pull even, they quickly responded to keep that comfortable margin. Thought we at least showed some resistance and fight in the second half, but the way we got bossed in the first half was hard to watch. They took our $8.50 we had for lunch money in the first few minutes of the game and in the end, we were able to get only $5.25 of it back. 

 

First half- Lions- 22

               Commanders- 0

 

Second half- Commanders- 27

                     Lions- 14

[KillBill26]

I think St Juste deserves a shout out.  Made couple nice tackles alone out in space, also was in great position in the flat to defend the pass a couple times.  Almost had a pick.  I've been more impressed with him than WJ3.

 

[KDawg]

8 hours ago, IrepDC said:

Turner's scheme won't scheme two receivers into the same place, but it might have two outbreaks routes, or two crossing routes, where if one of them are thrown off, two receivers often end up in the same area. His scheme sometimes creates congestion and traffic and/or brings extra defenders to the play side. Kurt Warner has broken it down well in his review of game one; the deficiencies we reference about Turner's. Obviously he's not telling two guys to stand next to each other. He creates too many opportunities for that to be a possibility, though.

 

I disagree. If he is scheming flood or levels concepts then the players have to execute. Get off jams, get to your space and create.

 

Yesterday there were two receivers in the literal same place. I have to rewatch but I don't believe either were disrupted terribly in their timing.

 

It's ridiculous to me that we are blaming coaching for player errors. There is plenty to criticize coaches for, I agree, but the piling on is overboard.

 

Why do people think our players are good enough for literally everything to be a coaching issue? We have drafted well and hit on a few free agents. But we also are overly loyal to players who can't get the job done and have too many mental lapses with our good players.

 

People saying Turner is our worst of the "big 3" is also wild. Turner has gotten more out of Taylor Heinicke, for instance, than he had any business doing. He has done a great job with Wentz. 

[Simmsy]

I always find it funny when people say "we beat ourselves", is that supposed to make me feel better? We only play the Lions once, if they beat us, fine (as long as we put in a good effort). We play with ourselves 17 times a year (yeah, I know what it sounds like), that should scare this fanbase.

[Going Commando]

The coaching just isn't good enough on either side of the ball, and all of my preseason fears about the weakness of our OL and Back 7 were confirmed.  These kinds of humiliating beat downs just wouldn't be happening at the beginning of season three for a regime that is actually building and trending towards contention.  We got utterly out coached yesterday, and I was demoralized to realize just how much more talented the Lions were than us in basically every position group despite them being in year two of their rebuild and we are in year three.

 

We need to be honest about where we are and the job Ron Rivera has done.  He hasn't been good enough and, frankly, this rebuilding job has been too big for him.  I think the job is too big for anyone.  A single person can not be the arbiter and spokesman of all things moral and professional for a major brand/corporation AND be their de facto General Manager AND be their Head Coach.  It is absolutely unfeasible and a completely absurd Front Office structure, and our leadership void at the top of the organization has stunted our on field product.

 

Yesterday we saw a performance from a talented and hungry young Head Coach whose only job was getting his team ready to play week 2.  And the difference in quality between the job he did and the job Ron did was depressingly obvious.  I don't care who we hire, we are not going to be able to get that kind of coaching performance from our guy unless his ONLY job is getting the team ready to play week in and week out, and yet the way Dan Campbell coached against us is what we need from our coaching to compete for a championship.

 

Second, how tf are we still so lacking in young talent and playmakers in year three when Detroit and Jacksonville already look loaded with them in year two?  Malcolm Rodriguez and Aiden Hutchinson are already better than any of our linebackers and defensive linemen, by far in most cases, and their scheme usage is so much better.  Amon Ra St Brown and DeAndre Swift are better than any of our WRs and backs, and they aren't first round picks.  And it's not even worth comparing our OLs, where theirs is brimming in top end talent and ours has completely degraded.

 

I know how, the answer is we have had way too many missed opportunities in the teambuilding department.  Bad trades where we took less than face value or gave away more than face value and draft reaches / missing out on draft steals.  Face saving victories at the ends of seasons that put us just out of reach of the cream of the crop hasn't helped, but we've had too many opportunities to acquire elite talent slip through our hands the past three years.

 

And the result is we just got passed by two other cellar dweller organizations that look like they are trending toward contention.  Not to mention that the Dolphins and Chargers, who are probably already there despite always being in the same draft range as us.

 

So yeah, our problems go way beyond the failures of our mediocre players on the field yesterday.  And the Hell of it is, making a change at HC in the offseason probably improves nothing short or long term.  But not doing so is also tantamount to giving up on earnestly competing for a Super Bowl.

 

We need a change in ownership and we need it to either coincide with Ron giving up HC duties or retiring altogether.  We need to fire the Martys and replace them with one single strong GM, and we need that GM to pick his HC and have it be an up and comer who can fill his staff out with bright young offensive and defensive coaches.  Those are the foundation level changes we have to make in order to truly compete, and it feels kind of pointless to talk about anything lesser than that.  Don't get me wrong, I'll still do it, but I know it's pointless.

[Skinsinparadise]

I think Scott Turner has been fine.  I think Wentz and our passing weapons look very good.

 

I am usually not quick to dismiss coaches exception was Zorn.  I was down on Jay early but gave him some leash after that and didn't want him fired right away,

 

Del Rio for a number of reasons I am down on.

 

Gibson who I was high on before the draft.  And I still like as a passing weapon in space, Kamara style, I am down on now as a runner.  He seems to have taken a step back as a runner.  The running game is "meh"

 

Chase Young and Brian Robinson coming back should help the team.  Maybe Curl, too.

 

Back 7 has been clearly "meh" to worse.  Imagine them against a real QB.  Goff and Lawrence werent really even that good. 

 

The faux pas of the off season IMO is forgoing adding to the defensive depth.  And now they are whining about the lack of depth.  Some reporters have speculated Dan put them on a budget and after getting Wentz most of that budget was met.  Some get pissed when I make this point and say its all on Ron who didn't want to spend.  To me that's weird.  What coach doesn't like to spend if given some money to do it?

 

Their drafts have been relatively strong.  Bypassing FA this year was a mistake IMO.  And yeah I do think Dan likely had a lot to do with it. 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

11 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

The coaching just isn't good enough on either side of the ball, and all of my preseason fears about the weakness of our OL and Back 7 were confirmed.  These kinds of humiliating beat downs just wouldn't be happening at the beginning of season three for a regime that is actually building and trending towards contention.  We got utterly out coached yesterday, and I was demoralized to realize just how much more talented the Lions were than us in basically every position group despite them being in year two of their rebuild and we are in year three.

 

We need to be honest about where we are and the job Ron Rivera has done.  He hasn't been good enough and, frankly, this rebuilding job has been too big for him.  I think the job is too big for anyone.  A single person can not be the arbiter and spokesman of all things moral and professional for a major brand/corporation AND be their de facto General Manager AND be their Head Coach.  It is absolutely unfeasible and a completely absurd Front Office structure, and our leadership void at the top of the organization has stunted our on field product.

 

Yesterday we saw a performance from a talented and hungry young Head Coach whose only job was getting his team ready to play week 2.  And the difference in quality between the job he did and the job Ron did was depressingly obvious.  I don't care who we hire, we are not going to be able to get that kind of coaching performance from our guy unless his ONLY job is getting the team ready to play week in and week out, and yet the way Dan Campbell coached against us is what we need from our coaching to compete for a championship.

 

Second, how tf are we still so lacking in young talent and playmakers in year three when Detroit and Jacksonville already look loaded with them in year two?  Malcolm Rodriguez and Aiden Hutchinson are already better than any of our linebackers and defensive linemen, by far in most cases, and their scheme usage is so much better.  Amon Ra St Brown and DeAndre Swift are better than any of our WRs and backs, and they aren't first round picks.  And it's not even worth comparing our OLs, where theirs is brimming in top end talent and ours has completely degraded.

 

I know how, the answer is we have had way too many missed opportunities in the teambuilding department.  Bad trades where we took less than face value or gave away more than face value and draft reaches / missing out on draft steals.  Face saving victories at the ends of seasons that put us just out of reach of the cream of the crop hasn't helped, but we've had too many opportunities to acquire elite talent slip through our hands the past three years.

 

And the result is we just got passed by two other cellar dweller organizations that look like they are trending toward contention.  Not to mention that the Dolphins and Chargers, who are probably already there despite always being in the same draft range as us.

 

So yeah, our problems go way beyond the failures of our mediocre players on the field yesterday.  And the Hell of it is, making a change at HC in the offseason probably improves nothing short or long term.  But not doing so is also tantamount to giving up on earnestly competing for a Super Bowl.

 

We need a change in ownership and we need it to either coincide with Ron giving up HC duties or retiring altogether.  We need to fire the Martys and replace them with one single strong GM, and we need that GM to pick his HC and have it be an up and comer who can fill his staff out with bright young offensive and defensive coaches.  Those are the foundation level changes we have to make in order to truly compete, and it feels kind of pointless to talk about anything lesser than that.  Don't get me wrong, I'll still do it, but I know it's pointless.

 

You're saying Amon Ra St. Brown is better than McLaurin? I don't know, man. It sounds like you're posting from emotion.

 

But you have some good points. 

 

Hutch is better than anyone on our defense. It's not particularly close. 

 

Rodriguez would start here from day one. He's far better than Holcomb. 

 

But Rivera has drafted and developed talent well. So, to your point, I think the only way to begin to right this ship is for Rivera to move to the FO, hire a new HC and let them get their coaches on while Rivera continues to do the FO work. Otherwise whoever takes the HC/GM job are doomed from the jump. The culture is changing a bit and there is an upswing but it's not happening fast and that means that there is going to be some dissention in the ranks, which has to be snuffed out. 

 

Agreed on the Snyder point. People like to say, "I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT SNYDER!! HE DOESN'T PLAY THE GAMES!!!!!!!!!!" *Fingers in ear* "LALALALALALA!" But he is the shadow that dwarfs all improvements with this franchise and prevents others. It's him. It's Snyder. Time for people to stop saying, "I don't want to hear its Snyder". It is Snyder.

[Skinsinparadise]

The odd thing is we might have accomplished the hardest thing and arguably the most important thing to win --  a QB -- and passing weapons.  Imagine if they actually had a running game to help and a decent O line?  Cole Turner had a big camp like Dotson and I believe will play next week. 

 

We got unlucky with Curtis Samuels' injury last year.  But he looks really good.  Dotson looks like a slam dunk potential star.  Terry is great.

 

I trust Masko to figure out the O line, they rebounded in the 2nd half after the first half debacle.

 

But just like the first half of last season, the train wreck seems to be the secondary.  I find it ironic that some want to replace Del Rio with Chris Harris.  Harris has a lot of fire but arguably its his unit that has been the weakest now two seasons in a row. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Redwards]

11 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

The coaching just isn't good enough on either side of the ball, and all of my preseason fears about the weakness of our OL and Back 7 were confirmed.  These kinds of humiliating beat downs just wouldn't be happening at the beginning of season three for a regime that is actually building and trending towards contention.  We got utterly out coached yesterday, and I was demoralized to realize just how much more talented the Lions were than us in basically every position group despite them being in year two of their rebuild and we are in year three.

 

We need to be honest about where we are and the job Ron Rivera has done.  He hasn't been good enough and, frankly, this rebuilding job has been too big for him.  I think the job is too big for anyone.  A single person can not be the arbiter and spokesman of all things moral and professional for a major brand/corporation AND be their de facto General Manager AND be their Head Coach.  It is absolutely unfeasible and a completely absurd Front Office structure, and our leadership void at the top of the organization has stunted our on field product.

 

Yesterday we saw a performance from a talented and hungry young Head Coach whose only job was getting his team ready to play week 2.  And the difference in quality between the job he did and the job Ron did was depressingly obvious.  I don't care who we hire, we are not going to be able to get that kind of coaching performance from our guy unless his ONLY job is getting the team ready to play week in and week out, and yet the way Dan Campbell coached against us is what we need from our coaching to compete for a championship.

 

Second, how tf are we still so lacking in young talent and playmakers in year three when Detroit and Jacksonville already look loaded with them in year two?  Malcolm Rodriguez and Aiden Hutchinson are already better than any of our linebackers and defensive linemen, by far in most cases, and their scheme usage is so much better.  Amon Ra St Brown and DeAndre Swift are better than any of our WRs and backs, and they aren't first round picks.  And it's not even worth comparing our OLs, where theirs is brimming in top end talent and ours has completely degraded.

 

I know how, the answer is we have had way too many missed opportunities in the teambuilding department.  Bad trades where we took less than face value or gave away more than face value and draft reaches / missing out on draft steals.  Face saving victories at the ends of seasons that put us just out of reach of the cream of the crop hasn't helped, but we've had too many opportunities to acquire elite talent slip through our hands the past three years.

 

And the result is we just got passed by two other cellar dweller organizations that look like they are trending toward contention.  Not to mention that the Dolphins and Chargers, who are probably already there despite always being in the same draft range as us.

 

So yeah, our problems go way beyond the failures of our mediocre players on the field yesterday.  And the Hell of it is, making a change at HC in the offseason probably improves nothing short or long term.  But not doing so is also tantamount to giving up on earnestly competing for a Super Bowl.

 

We need a change in ownership and we need it to either coincide with Ron giving up HC duties or retiring altogether.  We need to fire the Martys and replace them with one single strong GM, and we need that GM to pick his HC and have it be an up and comer who can fill his staff out with bright young offensive and defensive coaches.  Those are the foundation level changes we have to make in order to truly compete, and it feels kind of pointless to talk about anything lesser than that.  Don't get me wrong, I'll still do it, but I know it's pointless.

Totally agree, and I think this is more than evident now.  Ron has everything he wants now. 

 

Ron and Dan couldn't be bother with a rebuild, so Ron opted to go the absolute hardest and narrowest path to SB success (because, let's face it - that's the ONLY success in the NFL) by wanting to build his team first and then plug in a veteran QB.  Nevermind that in this day and age, SB quality QBs becoming available almost never happens, and when they do (like Wilson and Stafford for instance) they aren't even entertaining coming here.  While it's technically possible to go to the SB with a guy like Wentz, it's highly, highly unlikely, especially with a dumpster fire organization like this one.

 

By taking shortcuts at the most important position in the sport, Ron all but doomed our chances at success.  But these are the kinds of situations this organization under Snyder will always find itself in because NO ONE in Snyder's employ can usurp Snyder's rock solid refusal to go through a true rebuild.  We're left with nigh impossible chances at SB success, cycle through our array of Head Coaches and wonder why it's just not happening here.

 

I said this last offseason and I'm going to say it again: the Giants did it right.  They took their shot with a promising first time coach and hired a very promising GM, whom a lot of people wanted.  They also are set up very well in this upcoming, QB rich draft to get a new QB that they believe in.  We hired a slightly above average HC who felt compelled to outfit his FO with two guys who never built a damn thing in this league.   Ron's a great human being.  Not so much a head coach.  And it's showing.  We're in full Norv Turner mode here.  The similarities are striking.  

 

The Giants will be built and ready to contend for a SB before this team.  Book it.  I'm not saying their current regime is gonna do it, but that organization will get it right before Dan's.  I have no doubt of that.  They've gone through several up and down cycles, going from the dregs of the NFL to championship glory several times while we've stayed the same, mediocre to bad team with players pointing to snippets of success during games, reciting the same, tired mantra of "This is who we are.  It's just the little things.  When we clean those up, watch out.  The world's against us, but we know who we are."  Yet, those things never get cleaned up for more than a few games or so.  We never truly "learn" anything.  It's quite fascinating.

 

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

One day closer to getting rid of Del Rio…

[skinfan2k]

People are blaming the kicker but that was piss poor time management at the end.  why are you running the ball at 245 and huddle when you need time.  3 shots in the end zone and you can still use the 2 min on defense.

 

Also, who in the world thought it was a good idea to go for 2 when we were down 7!!!

[Skinsinparadise]

19 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

 

Agreed on the Snyder point. People like to say, "I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT SNYDER!! HE DOESN'T PLAY THE GAMES!!!!!!!!!!" *Fingers in ear* "LALALALALALA!" But he is the shadow that dwarfs all improvements with this franchise and prevents others. It's him. It's Snyder. Time for people to stop saying, "I don't want to hear its Snyder". It is Snyder.

 

Multiple reporters who usually don't just fly stuff against the wall when they speculate -- usually their speculation is based on a source or two -- suggested that Ron was on a budget from Dan and hit most of that budget when they landed Wentz.

 

Some say that can't be so because Dan has all the money in the world and some remind that eons ago mostly pre Bruce he was a big spender.  

 

But what coach do we know restricts themselves from spending?  Isn't that part of the drill often said that one key problem from a coach shopping for groceries is they have a win now mindset and want everything now.  So Rivera somehow is the opposite of that especially in a season where he acceded is a pivotal one for them to have a good year.

 

Standig among others said they heard they chased some MLBs in FA but only offered peanuts for them.  I heard (Keim) that they wanted Collins back but only offered him super low money.  A lot of smoke that Dan IMO put the brakes on FA.  And if so, its sad because even an average defense IMO would lend to a good year because their passing game actually looks good. 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

Standig just on said he heard from the Lions beat guy that the Lions players including St. Brown told him they had a really easy beat on the defense.  They could see on tape there were certain offensive formations that confused the defenders among them they were confident that the fly sweep would work on this defense.  And St. Brown said he could see when he had the ball on the sweep thst no one recognized on the defense he had the ball until it was too late. 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[DJHJR86]

Del Rio is the easy scapegoat because the defense has been terrible.  But Del Rio wasn't the one who made the decision to go for 2 when they didn't need to.  Rivera is a great guy, but he ain't taking us to any promised land.  

[CobraCommander]

All I know is next time we play the Lions I better not hear about how we should win because “it’s jus the lions”. 
 

They own us and have for years now.  When they wake up Sunday morning they get to say “It’s just the commanders”. 

[dyst]

28 minutes ago, skinfan2k said:

People are blaming the kicker but that was piss poor time management at the end.  why are you running the ball at 245 and huddle when you need time.  3 shots in the end zone and you can still use the 2 min on defense.

 

Also, who in the world thought it was a good idea to go for 2 when we were down 7!!!

Running the ball twice, with Gibson was definitely a head scratcher 

[Redwards]

20 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Multiple reporters who usually don't just fly stuff against the wall when they speculate -- usually their speculation is based on a source or two -- suggested that Ron was on a budget from Dan and hit most of that budget when they landed Wentz.

 

Some say that can't be so because Dan has all the money in the world and some remind that eons ago mostly pre Bruce he was a big spender.  

 

But what coach do we know restricts themselves from spending?  Isn't that part of the drill often said that one key problem from a coach shopping for groceries is they have a win now mindset and want everything now.  So Rivera somehow is the opposite of that especially in a season where he acceded is a pivotal one for them to have a good year.

 

Standig among others said they heard they chased some MLBs in FA but only offered peanuts for them.  I heard (Keim) that they wanted Collins back but only offered him super low money.  A lot of smoke that Dan IMO put the brakes on FA.  And if so, its sad because even an average defense IMO would lend to a good year because their passing game actually looks good. 

If this is true (and I certainly can believe it) and Ron knew this coming in, then he should never had accepted the job.  If these financial constraints came after he accepted the job, then he should have resigned.  I know I would have.  

 

There's simply no way I'm taking a job you hired me to do and then handcuff me like that, leaving my coaching reputation to take a hit (because you can't truly be successful being handcuffed like that (especially for an organization that has to out-bid others quite frequently to entice a prospect to come here).  If I am given the adequate resources to do my job and I fall short, I'll be the first to own up to it.  But there's no way I'm taking bullets for an owner like Dan and as disgusting person as Dan.  Because that's what'll it come down to publicly: Ron being fired or resigning without announcing how his hands were tied the entire time, making it look like he simply couldn't be the coach we need, when it was Dan's financial constraints making it impossible.  And Dan sure won't own up to it.  And he'll thank Rivera in a public announcement letter and then move on and say the future looks bright for the next coach.  No other way this movie ends.

 

And even if Ron moves to the FO, what difference will it make if any future coach has his hands tied the way Ron had his?

 

If Dan's money issues are real, then it truly doesn't matter what coach we get.  Might as well sign Ron to a lifetime contract, because absolutely no one will be successful here.  What a mess.  Dan goes from having all the money in the world to spend on players to being financially constrained.  

Just another new path for this organization to find to failure.   Typical.

[Skinsinparadise]

athletic, mostly Standig

 

 

 

[Warhead36]

What I got from that is our players on defense are dumb as rocks and can’t execute anything beyond bare bones vanilla.