Welcome to the Washington Commanders Phidarian Mathis DT Alabama

[Going Commando]

16 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

I think Keim makes an interesting point about wanting a true 1 tech to free up Payne to do what he does best. So in theory, this pick could be help us keep Payne. 
 

I just don’t buy that this is totally a pick to replace Payne next year. It could be insurance against that, but I don’t think that was the only reason.

 

Chase/Allen/Mathis/Payne/Sweat

could be a pretty stout front five against the run. I also think Smith-Williams and Toney will be improved as well.

 

I went back and watched Mathis after we drafted him and I'm not sure the assessment that he is a 1 tech and primarily a run stopper is accurate.  I only watched the cut ups from the 2021 season, but this year he was not used as a run downs 1 tech.  I think people might be getting him mixed up with #47 and #94 on that Bama line.

 

From what I saw, Mathis actually didn't play in their starting base personnel.  He usually came off the field on first down and obvious run downs and #47 is the guy who started at the end positon and DJ Dale #94 was their 2 gapping nose.  Mathis came on the field for passing downs like 2nd, 3rd, and 4th and long.  And he tended to play the three technique or he played the 1 tech when they ran twists.  In situations where Bama rushed four or more, he wasn't the one who tended to see the double team, that was Dale.  Mathis got single blocked and was expected to get pressure.

 

Maybe he played as a run plugging 1 tech earlier in his career, but IMO we drafted him for what he showed his senior season and that is his pass defense skill, not his run defense.  I think he's much more likely intended as a replacement for Ioannidis than Payne.  I think this is why we picked him over Travis Jones and Perrion Winfrey and felt he had 2nd round value.  We believe in him as a pass rusher and don't think that shockingly high sack total was a fluke.

 

I think we'll look for a replacement for Payne when we get to that bridge next offseason, but didn't have the luxury to do it yet.  We're focused on fielding a three man rotation for next season and I think we have no intention of trading Daron, and we picked Mathis to play three tech or as a pass down penetrating one tech and we liked him early because we felt he'd be able to play that role well as a rookie.

 

I don't think our process/philosophy was the problem with this pick, but I think our evaluation of him might be wrong.  I'm not totally convinced that Mathis has a lot of upside as a pass rusher, mainly because I think he's pretty slow and I don't think he's got the athleticism to finish plays outside of his immediate area.  That final gear to finish plays it what separates him from a real stud pass rushing interior DL like Allen.  But he does have an elite motor and length.  And he is really smart.  Heads up player who finds the football.  If you can flush the QB or disrupt the timing of the play, then Mathis can clean up as a secondary or tertiary source of pressure.  And hopefully we can achieve that with the probowl DT and DE that we already have.

[Skinsinparadise]

Anything can happen of course.  Chase, Sweat, Allen, Payne have mostly played well in their careers albiet in Chase's case a short career.  For whatever reason they played decent, not bad but nothing special at the beginning of the season.  They simply weren't bringing it home with 4 man pressures.  As Keim said teams oriented their offense to stopping the D line with 6 men blocking.  I am not one of the Del Rio haters here but I'll grant that it took awhile for Del Rio to adjust to it.

 

So 6 men blocking beat our 4 men on the D line too many times.  But the defense really struggled because the secondary fell apart.   the D line was still the 12th ranked D line last year according to Football Outsiders even though we lost 2 edge players for a large amount of the season.

 

Hopefully, Chase returns healthy, IMO that's the key.  If that happens, I think the adjustments Del Rio made to the pressure packages starting midseason more or less I think and hope will have a carry over effect to this season.  Our D lineman are good.  But its not easy to beat 6 men blocking sets with 4 guys.   You need to bring in a 5th guy more IMO to disrupt.  And when Del Rio started doing that things improved.  

 

We ended up ranked 11th in the league in pressure according to PFF. 

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

PFF breakdown

 

 

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

i have to get to watching him myself, so far just watched highlights so i have no strong opinion one way or another.

 

Here's Brugler's take

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

“Phil’s done a really good job, he has stepped up as a leader, he sets a good example,” Saban said. “He’s confident enough in himself and his maturity to challenge other players to do the same and I think that has benefitted us tremendously.”

 

https://www.on3.com/college/alabama-crimson-tide/news/nick-saban-discusses-development-of-christian-harris-phidarian-mathis-week-10/

 

“Well, I think Phil has played really well, he’s got his weight down his quickness is better,” Saban said. “That’s the thing that I think has helped him the most. I think he’s playing with a lot more initial quickness, moving better, rushing better, the guy’s got a really, really good motor. He plays hard all the time and his production has increased with those improvements.

“I’m really pleased with him; I think he sets a really good example for the young guys so we’re pleased with that as well.”

https://www.si.com/college/alabama/bamacentral/nick-saban-phil-mathis-defensive-improvements-lsu-blackwell

[Going Commando]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

PFF breakdown

 

That matches what I noticed in the cut ups I was able to find.  So he played the same role throughout the season.  He played 400+ of his 500 snaps at 3 and 4 technique.  Those 100 snaps he took at the one tech weren't primarily on run downs either I bet.  They used him as a slanting or penetrating one tech alignment where he was mainly playing in a passing situation and either coming straight through that A gap or taking a long path through the C gap.

 

They used Mathis as their primary interior rusher this season, and kept him fresh by rotating him out on likely run downs for #47.  Most of his snaps he's playing wide and Dale is the one lining up at the nose and soaking up the double.

 

I'm kind of surprised about how pretty much every source got his playing style and projected role wrong.  I certainly wasn't that careful the first time I watched him before the draft because I thought he was a run stopping nose tackle prospect.  It was really confusing when I just watched their defense again and realized that's not how he was used.  He's a three tech and 3-4 DE, and what's more he's kind of top heavy and projects way more naturally as a three tech than nose just in terms of his body type.

 

Saban is right how his motor, it's his defining trait as a player.  He gets so much production just from out working guards.  The other thing that jumped out to me is how well he finds the football.  You see him sniff out the PoA early a lot, and the other way it shows is in how quick he is to recover fumbles.  He's got good vision and instincts.  He could be .ore than the some of his parts, and I think he's got some Matthew Ioannidis in him.

[KDawg]

4 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 

That matches what I noticed in the cut ups I was able to find.  So he played the same role throughout the season.  He played 400+ of his 500 snaps at 3 and 4 technique.  Those 100 snaps he took at the one tech weren't primarily on run downs either I bet.  They used him as a slanting or penetrating one tech alignment where he was mainly playing in a passing situation and either coming straight through that A gap or taking a long path through the C gap.

 

They used Mathis as their primary interior rusher this season, and kept him fresh by rotating him out on likely run downs for #47.  Most of his snaps he's playing wide and Dale is the one lining up at the nose and soaking up the double.

 

I'm kind of surprised about how pretty much every source got his playing style and projected role wrong.  I certainly wasn't that careful the first time I watched him before the draft because I thought he was a run stopping nose tackle prospect.  It was really confusing when I just watched their defense again and realized that's not how he was used.  He's a three tech and 3-4 DE, and what's more he's kind of top heavy and projects way more naturally as a three tech than nose just in terms of his body type.

 

Saban is right how his motor, it's his defining trait as a player.  He gets so much production just from out working guards.  The other thing that jumped out to me is how well he finds the football.  You see him sniff out the PoA early a lot, and the other way it shows is in how quick he is to recover fumbles.  He's got good vision and instincts.  He could be .ore than the some of his parts, and I think he's got some Matthew Ioannidis in him.

I saw he played a lot of 3/4 in the film. I just don’t think he projects as a 3/4 in the NFL. 
 

I think his snap count  (and the knock on Jordan Davis, too, for what it’s worth) was a touch exaggerated. The college game is generally faster paced than the pro game.

 

He has 1-tech written all over him. 

But great post and I totally agree. Dude can play.

[Voice_of_Reason]

16 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

But, given that Jamin WAS raw as hell and we all knew it... We don't know that was a blown evaluation yet unless Rivera believed he was a day 1 improvement to the linebacker position.

 

We haven't added anything to LB yet. Either that's because we didn't have options that were adequate, things just didn't align or because Rivera/Del Rio are happy with our LB corps.

 

I have reservations about them, too, but we rolled with them last year with less experience ultimately. I don't see how it could be worse. 

 

What Jamin was, and it's clear, is a reach. But it's not a bad eval. yet. 

So, this might be semantics, but I still say it's a blown evaluation, and I don't actually believe in reaches.  

 

The reason is Ron and company evaluated him to come in and play in the middle, basically take over for Bostic, and provide better athleticism and skill at that position.  

 

However, at the end of the year, Ron came out and said he was better on the outside.

 

Which to me shows a blown evaluation.  And IF they had evaluated him as strictly an outside guy, then yeah, they picked him too early.  But I don't think they picked him at that spot to be an outside guy, (based on what they said, and the fact he practiced immediately in the middle starting in rookie mini-camps and through training camp.

 

So maybe it's 6 of one, half dozen of the other.  We agree he should not have been picked where he was picked.  I just think they picked him there because their evaluation showed he was a legitimate inside defender, which they needed, which inflated his grade on their board, and they didn't think he would be there at their next pick, so they just went ahead and selected him.  If they viewed him as an outside guy, they probably go in a different direction, and if he's there later, great.  

 

Again, we're getting to the same conclusion, but maybe taking a very slightly different route to get there....

 

AND FWIW, I haven't given up on Jamin yet either.  Contrary to popular belief, the rookie season of a player does not define their future production. He could absolutely learn and develop and become a heck of a player.

 

Also, FWIW, I think the evaluation on Scherff was also a blown eval.  They drafted him to play RT.  It took 1 practice to realize he couldn't.  He is a really good guard.  You don't pick a guard at 5 overall.  If GMSM had evaluated him as a guard, then they probably go in a different direction. And I have nothing against Scherff.  At all.  

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Riggodrill44]

On 4/30/2022 at 10:06 AM, Renegade7 said:

 

 

 

We didn't plan our cap for trading for that contract, that's why we are cutting people left and right to make it work.  Settle and Ion are only depth players here, but they are starters else where and would be fine starting in the event of Payne and Allen going down, we'd be fine, let's not disrespect their talent because we don't "need them".

 

 

 

If we had a competent GM, the Colts would have paid us 10m to take Wentz. 
 

Ron sucks as a GM

[Skinsinparadise]

Just watched his game versus Georgia.  Granted its just one game.  Georgia had a decent offensive line.

 

He played just about always on the left side of the D line (same side that Payne plays here mostly), saw him moved toward the end of the game for a play to the right playing 3.   Played 1,2, 3, 4, and if I saw it right even 5.  they moved him around.  I didn't chart it but I'd guess more at 3.

 

I really like what I saw.  He plays like a ball of energy, violent hands, sheds well, a lot of bull rushes but also stunts, and seems to like to find a crease/opening and run around around the tackle at times which i don't often see from a tackle playing inside.  And knowing Saban's style I gather he's given him that type of freedom on throwing downs.  

 

Even though it looks like he mostly at least in that game was shooting up the gap, he did occupy two blockers multiple times and seems more than capable of playing nose if need be.

 

Watching tackles can be boring at times.  Mathis isn't boring, his motor runs nonstop and seems determined to disrupt the play. 

 

If I had to guess his weakness it would be he is so determined to make a play that sometimes he gets out of his gap assignment and a run happens right where I presume he's supposed to be.  Also while he's a bit slippery for a big man as a pass rusher in a good way, he doesn't have the speed to chase a QB in pursuit (like Payne or Allen) but he can get close enough to the QB to disrupt the play.  I think his sacks in the league will come from him collapsing the pocket.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

 

I'll add Saban's comments about Mathis being a different dude athletically wheh his weight is down was the same thing he said about Payne before the draft we took Payne.   

 

On another note, lol, good to see Del Rio has some confidence.  

 

I think some 5 man fronts against teams like the Eagles who want to run the ball down your throats -- I think would be fun with Mathis.  

[Warhead36]

12 hours ago, Riggodrill44 said:

If we had a competent GM, the Colts would have paid us 10m to take Wentz. 
 

Ron sucks as a GM

Yep thats the main issue with the trade and our FO as a whole. In a vacuum trading for Wentz was a fine acquisition but we did a poor job in terms of value. A real savvy GM would have given up less picks and/or make Indy eat more salary. 

[Koolblue13]

Great write up Sip, thanks. I love watching DTs. We have the horses to capitalize on broken pockets and it's excited having the 3 bama middle that will break them.

Just now, Warhead36 said:

Yep thats the main issue with the trade and our FO as a whole. In a vacuum trading for Wentz was a fine acquisition but we did a poor job in terms of value. A real savvy GM would have given up less picks and/or make Indy eat more salary. 

If we played around, Wentz would be a Steeler. We paid what we had to pay.

[Going Commando]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Even though it looks like he mostly at least in that game was shooting up the gap, he did occupy two blockers multiple times and seems more than capable of playing nose if need be.

 

The Ole Miss game is a good demonstration of Mathis's role because they run such a fast tempo that Bama couldn't rotate their DLs as much and their RPO scheme meant they couldn't just line Mathis up inside and have him rush all day.  I definitely don't think he's a nose, I think he's a 2 and 3 technique and a natural fit for a slanting scheme.

 

He can definitely 2 gap that guard from the 2 tech alignment in that base 4-2-5 that Bama liked to run on first down (two 2 techs).  But the plays where he looked the best were when they let him slant from that 2 technique and cross face on the center for interior penetration.  He also rushed wide outside a lot but he's just not fast enough to really threaten the pocket from that kind of rush path unless the timing of the play is completely ruined or the QB gets flushed into him.

 

The issue I keep coming back to with him is limited athleticism.  He does have some speed in his first step and he's got great length and good hands.  But he just can't finish plays that require him to redirect or take a challenging angle to the runner.  He sees the ball really well, has a good feel for how they're trying to block him, and he can get a lot of initial wins with his first step and length to get into the vicinity of the play.  But there are so many "close but no cigar" reps with him because he just can't break down and tackle anything off his frame nor does he have that elite closing speed to finish plays after getting off his block.

 

We need to be slanting with him in order to take advantage of his motor and snap quickness IMO.  He can two gap the guard fine, but that's not going to generate a lot of wins from our DL, and they are way more talented than our LBers are.  But that does put a lot of pressure on our LBers to make sure nothing gets free on the backside of the play.  With Bama, that's not an issue because their LBs are always so good and fast.  I would worry about our group.

 

I would imagine we're going to copy Bama's base defense and run that 4-2-5 with two 2 techs up front.  Why wouldn't we since we've got their IDLs and we only have two linebackers worth giving snaps to on the roster?  I was worried about our lack of a traditional nose in our IDL rotation, but not any more now that I see how Bama ran their line.  The one tech will be Daron in the few situations where need one, and then the vast majority of our situations we'll just use two 2 techs.  If Mathis lines up at the 1 for us, it'll be on 3rd and longs and he'll be slanting or stunting.  We should have a pretty good IDL rotation but we need all three of them to stay healthy and available.  Not really worried about that with Daron, but it is kind of a lot of responsibility to put on a rookie.  That's why I think Mathis being 24 already and highly experienced in the scheme we are likely to run sold us on him.  The secondary worries me a little though, and our linebackers are going to have to play so much better this year than they did last year for our defense to actually be good.

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

The Ole Miss game is a good demonstration of Mathis's role because they run such a fast tempo that Bama couldn't rotate their DLs as much and their RPO scheme meant they couldn't just line Mathis up inside and have him rush all day.  I definitely don't think he's a nose, I think he's a 2 and 3 technique and a natural fit for a slanting scheme.

 

He can definitely 2 gap that guard from the 2 tech alignment in that base 4-2-5 that Bama liked to run on first down (two 2 techs).  But the plays where he looked the best were when they let him slant from that 2 technique and cross face on the center for interior penetration.  He also rushed wide outside a lot but he's just not fast enough to really threaten the pocket from that kind of rush path unless the timing of the play is completely ruined or the QB gets flushed into him.

 

The issue I keep coming back to with him is limited athleticism.  He does have some speed in his first step and he's got great length and good hands.  But he just can't finish plays that require him to redirect or take a challenging angle to the runner.  He sees the ball really well, has a good feel for how they're trying to block him, and he can get a lot of initial wins with his first step and length to get into the vicinity of the play.  But there are so many "close but no cigar" reps with him because he just can't break down and tackle anything off his frame nor does he have that elite closing speed to finish plays after getting off his block.

 

We need to be slanting with him in order to take advantage of his motor and snap quickness IMO.  He can two gap the guard fine, but that's not going to generate a lot of wins from our DL, and they are way more talented than our LBers are.  But that does put a lot of pressure on our LBers to make sure nothing gets free on the backside of the play.  With Bama, that's not an issue because their LBs are always so good and fast.  I would worry about our group.

 

I would imagine we're going to copy Bama's base defense and run that 4-2-5 with two 2 techs up front.  Why wouldn't we since we've got their IDLs and we only have two linebackers worth giving snaps to on the roster?  I was worried about our lack of a traditional nose in our IDL rotation, but not any more now that I see how Bama ran their line.  The one tech will be Daron in the few situations where need one, and then the vast majority of our situations we'll just use two 2 techs.  If Mathis lines up at the 1 for us, it'll be on 3rd and longs and he'll be slanting or stunting.  We should have a pretty good IDL rotation but we need all three of them to stay healthy and available.  Not really worried about that with Daron, but it is kind of a lot of responsibility to put on a rookie.  That's why I think Mathis being 24 already and highly experienced in the scheme we are likely to run sold us on him.  The secondary worries me a little though, and our linebackers are going to have to play so much better this year than they did last year for our defense to actually be good.

 

The Miami game he was a total nightmare, too. Dude pops on film more than any other Alabama defender... Only other guy I noticed down to down was Christian Harris. 

 

I also think you're on the money with the 4-2-5, but I think you'll see 2-techs and a mix of 1s and 3s. Which is the D we ran mostly last year. But I think they are aiming for the full sale switch to it based on the team's search for a Hybrid defender.

[Skinsinparadise]

Standig

 

 

[Cooleyfan1993]

Does anyone else see “praying manthis” sometimes when they see his name? Or is it just me 

[Dark Acre]

24 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

Does anyone else see “praying manthis” sometimes when they see his name? Or is it just me 

"Here's Johnny!"

[Est.1974]

Mathis will be starting week 1, that’s my guess. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[skinsfan93]

I wrote after we drafted Mathis, I really liked the pick! I know everyone says he’s more of a run stuffer than pass rusher but keep in mind he had 9 sacks last year while Payne had 1.5 his last year at Bama. 
 

I don’t need him to get sacks but be just a disruptive force in the middle where teams need 2 blockers to move him. I prefer him to become a Vince Wolfork type who never had more than 3 sacks in a season but was a force. He gained weight and became 350 lbs and just clogged the middle. I know there was some talk about keeping his weight down but I think Mathis has the body type to be able to handle the extra weight while still keeping his agility and speed. 
 

We should have enough pass rushers and if Mathis can become Wilfork like, it will strengthen our linebackers. I really think he could become our best pick in this draft someone we can have 8-10 years on that line!

[Dark Acre]

33 minutes ago, skinsfan93 said:

I think Mathis has the body type to be able to handle the extra weight while still keeping his agility and speed. 

Depends on whether he gains fat or muscle, which depends on whether he eats Lucerne or leucine.

[skinsfan93]

Wilfork wasn’t the epitome of lean 🤣🤣🤣
 

 

[Skinsinparadise]