Skinsinparadise Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Conn said: Funny, I was thinking the opposite. That we are never sellers at the trade deadline when we’re bad because our win-now FO inevitably values keeping a player we probably won’t re-sign, to add at most .5-1.5 extra wins or whatever, rather than selling them while they’ve still got trade value. A never-ending cycle of valuing the next 8+ games over smart long-term asset management. I agree Robinson and Gibson (and McKissic) make a great 1-2 (-3) punch, although I wish Turner were more creative with them. We just aren’t set up to take advantage of that in a way that matters before Gibson leaves for like a 4th-5th round comp pick at best anyways. But we always value the mediocre now over the idea of planning for later. That’s what you get giving final say to a coach, obviously. Yeah that's my issue with any coach centric model. The coaches are typically in win now mode -- the future be damned. Current job security is first and foremost. Some this off season have accused Rivera of being too future oriented and he's the one pushing the draconian FA budget -- i think that's likely very far fetched. Ron would have to be the opposite of every other coach centric model. But not trading Gibson, Payne, is on brand for a coach centric model and very on brand for Dan's whole tenure which is always the future is now. Edited October 28, 2022 by Skinsinparadise 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinny21 Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: Yeah that's my issue with any coach centric model. The coaches are typically in win now mode -- the future be damned. Current job security is first and foremost. Some this off season have accused Rivera of being too future oriented and he's the one pushing the draconian FA budget -- i think that's likely very far fetched. Ron would have to be the opposite of every other coach centric model. But not trading Gibson, Payne, is on brand for a coach centric model and very on brand for Dan's whole tenure which is always the future is now. So, I’m still kind of up in the air on this whole… debate I guess. I do believe that Dan can own a business worth 4 bil, but still be concerned with putting money in escrow. And I believe that certainly could have lead to Dan giving Ron a budget, or guidelines. And lastly, it’s hard to believe a coach wouldn’t be in win-now mode. With that said, I’m curious about your take on Ron talking about building something sustainable when he arrived, and then reports (IIRC) about RR maybe being conscious of needing to be able to pay our (homegrown) guys going forward. It seems (I could well be wrong) that Ron is sort of torn between win-now and being mindful of the future. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, skinny21 said: So, I’m still kind of up in the air on this whole… debate I guess. I do believe that Dan can own a business worth 4 bil, but still be concerned with putting money in escrow. And I believe that certainly could have lead to Dan giving Ron a budget, or guidelines. And lastly, it’s hard to believe a coach wouldn’t be in win-now mode. With that said, I’m curious about your take on Ron talking about building something sustainable when he arrived, and then reports (IIRC) about RR maybe being conscious of needing to be able to pay our (homegrown) guys going forward. It seems (I could well be wrong) that Ron is sort of torn between win-now and being mindful of the future. To me its 95% chance its true. We got some people here who are very feisty on this point saying its not true and its generated some good debate. But outside of that, i don't see much of a debate about this as far as people who cover this team. From those covering the team either some suggest its so or some haven't opined at all. I've stated who has said what so I don't want to belabor it all again. The last most direct comment was from Mike Jones who said he heard from some in the know that Dan's financial situation right now might not allow him to fire Ron because he might not be able to afford to pay two coaching staffs at the same time. I think the issue is hard for some to agree with because they focus on can Dan liquidate assets if he wants. If he can pay 45 million for a house, he surely can pony up 50 million of whatever in guaranteed money to name that big FA, etc. I am sure he could. Look I could sell my house or forgo on some personal perks and put it into my business instead. I could. But I don't want to. My business is important but its not everything to me. I don't see how billionaries are that different. Especially in the context of Dan right now where he's paying back a 450 million dollar loan, and he supposedly has to pay 2 billion dollars for a stadium. Heck Dan's debt was a central focus to the articles about how the owners think they might have an angle to get Dan to sell. lol, its everywhere. Sorry if I come off obnoxious on this but i don't get at all how its even a debatable point -- the only angle I can see is saying people are lying about Dan. And IMO its very relevant to the future of this team for a number of reasons so in that context I am not leaving the point alone. Bringing this to Ron. I forgot who said it, Standig or Keim but one said they poked at a bunch of bigger name FAs but they were out of their price range. They said Ron certainly wanted to upgrade some roster spots that they didn't end up upgrading -- and poked around on some of the same players fans have talked about on twitter where they were bewildered that the Commanders didn't pursue. Ron has expressed that season #3 is a big one for him. According to Sheehan among others, they know that its an important year because of the rebrand, etc. So my best guess digesting all of this is Dan gave Ron a budget. And Ron used most of that budget up on Wentz. Do I think Ron wants to do what his current co-GM Marty Hurney did in Carolina which is to punt on the future and overspend on the cap -- probably not. But I serioulsy doubt Ron put his own breaks on his own spending to the extent that they did this offseason. When you got multiple reports about Dan cutting back on this and that (stuff I've mentioned) I do think it takes some imagination to believe that Dan put the breaks on much more minor expenses but somehow doesn't care about more major ones? Then couple that with the other stories and rumors about Dan's cash flow -- and to see that all as meaningless coincidence or lies? hard for me to do that. Edited October 28, 2022 by Skinsinparadise 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskinss Posted October 29, 2022 Share Posted October 29, 2022 It doesn't surprise me at all that multiple teams want gibby. He passes the eye test better than most backs. His frame and athleticism stand out and he has good production on a horribly bad team. Imagine what he'd do with the bills or chiefs. He'd be a monster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrJL Posted October 29, 2022 Share Posted October 29, 2022 22 hours ago, FootballZombie said: McC and McK are small fries considering the roles they play for their cap hit. The juice may not even be worth the squeeze unless you need roster spots at their positions cuz your not getting a lot of cash back from moving on. If your looking to make some real space beyond the others you mentioned I'd eyeball: -Chase Roullier - He is staring down a 12.8M cap hit next year. Normal cutting him would be a 5.1M dead cap but a 7.7M savings. 13M is a lot to pay a center coming off injuries in back to back years, even one as good as him. -Logan Thomas - Set to make 8.7M. Cutting him would lose us 3.5 but save 5.2. This move would be largely dependent on both how he and our TE corps look over the rest of the year. Right now we are paying him not to play and I'm still not sure he can get back to previous heights, but he also may be the only thing you have at TE on the roster making him untouchable unless somebody else in the group steps things up. -New deal for Sweat - He is staring down a 11.5M cap hit next year. A new deal will likely see a year one hit similar to Allen and Terry around 7 Mil, saving millions this year. or -Trade Sweat. Even if you don't get a strong return, lets say a 4th rounder, your getting 11.5M in straight cap space. If you do get a high return... you get that plus money. -Joey Slye can be cut for 500K and save 2 Mil... that bears watching the line is better with Chase I would love a rework of his deal. I'd also like to see a new deal for Montez. The thing about McCain and McKissic is with the other pieces they feel unnecesary We do have some good young TEs so Thomas could go. We could also tryto rework him 3 hours ago, Conn said: Funny, I was thinking the opposite. That we are never sellers at the trade deadline when we’re bad because our win-now FO inevitably values keeping a player we probably won’t re-sign, to add at most .5-1.5 extra wins or whatever, rather than selling them while they’ve still got trade value. A never-ending cycle of valuing the next 8+ games over smart long-term asset management. I agree Robinson and Gibson (and McKissic) make a great 1-2 (-3) punch, although I wish Turner were more creative with them. We just aren’t set up to take advantage of that in a way that matters before Gibson leaves for like a 4th-5th round comp pick at best anyways. But we always value the mediocre now over the idea of planning for later. That’s what you get giving final say to a coach, obviously. we're not sellers because trading at the trade deadline in the NFL is still rare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted October 29, 2022 Share Posted October 29, 2022 Listened to Keim's podcast today. He's basically on another page than what Standig was months back. Maybe things have changed? Basically he's saying they want to keep Payne for the long term so they don't see this as renting him for another season and then he bolts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLSkinz83 Posted October 29, 2022 Share Posted October 29, 2022 If they cut Wentz, they will franchise tag Payne. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wit33 Posted October 29, 2022 Share Posted October 29, 2022 (edited) On 10/28/2022 at 7:19 PM, Skinsinparadise said: Listened to Keim's podcast today. He's basically on another page than what Standig was months back. Maybe things have changed? Basically he's saying they want to keep Payne for the long term so they don't see this as renting him for another season and then he bolts. Catastrophic if you let him go. Unless he’s a bad dude behind the scenes, I don’t get how you let him go. Super young as well. Barley entering his prime. Talent, talent… keep the freaks and figure other stuff out. Will be tough to swallow if somehow Wentz is on the team and let go of Payne. On 10/28/2022 at 8:11 PM, FLSkinz83 said: If they cut Wentz, they will franchise tag Payne. Extend him asap and get to staggering contracts of 4 highly paid DLineman. Combine it with an escalating cap and it seems like it’s feasible to keep them all for next few years. Edited October 30, 2022 by wit33 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 With Willis starting today, that makes 3 of the rookies from last draft class starting, right? Zappe, Pickett and Willis. I'm betting Ridder is next. Strong isn't on a roster. Time for Howell to start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 Payne needs to be brought back. He's just hitting his stride. He's still young and he's durable AF. I don't buy the "we can't pay all of our DL" schtick. By the time we get to Young's deal, Allen's will almost be expired. You can always shift things around and the salary cap will only go up more and more with the new TV deals and gambling money coming in. I mean the Bucs won a Super Bowl and brought back their entire team. The Rams won a Super Bowl and ADDED guys like Allen Robinson and Bobby Wagner. We don't have enough good players to let one of the few we have go. I don't wanna hear it. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 (edited) 16 hours ago, wit33 said: Catastrophic if you let him go. Unless he’s a bad dude behind the scenes, I don’t get how you let him go. Super young as well. Barley entering his prime. Talent, talent… keep the freaks and figure other stuff out. Will be tough to swallow if somehow Wentz is on the team and let go of Payne. I've liked but not loved Payne as a player here, freakish talent but inconsistent. Loved his durability though. This season seems to be the breakthrough that people have been waiting for. So yeah for me ditto no way I'd take Wentz over Payne. Cutting ties to Wentz should open things up. I am not in the camp that paying 27 million for Wentz has no impact on the rest of the roster. Heck Rivera flat out said this off season that Wentz pay effects the roster building. Edited October 30, 2022 by Skinsinparadise 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wit33 Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said: With Willis starting today, that makes 3 of the rookies from last draft class starting, right? Zappe, Pickett and Willis. I'm betting Ridder is next. Strong isn't on a roster. Time for Howell to start. Fascinated to see Willis and Titans play today. Paring him and Henry seems like a Vrabel type offense, though Vrable has been tough on him in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wit33 Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said: I've liked but not loved Payne as a player here, freakish talent but inconsistent. Loved his durability though. This season seems to be the breakthrough that people have been waiting for. So yeah for me ditto no way I'd take Wentz over Payne. Cutting ties to Wentz should open things up. I am not in the camp that paying 27 million for Wentz has no impact on the rest of the roster. Heck Rivera flat out said this off season that Wentz pay effects the roster building. Keep all the freaks that are durable, play with effort and good in the locker room. The statistics will come and go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowhunter Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 Is there a team out there that would trade for Carson, especially if we paid most of his salary this year? Maybe a 3rd or 4th?? Anyone? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomwvr Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 On 10/29/2022 at 7:28 PM, wit33 said: Catastrophic if you let him go. Unless he’s a bad dude behind the scenes, I don’t get how you let him go. Super young as well. Barley entering his prime. Talent, talent… keep the freaks and figure other stuff out. Will be tough to swallow if somehow Wentz is on the team and let go of Payne. Extend him asap and get to staggering contracts of 4 highly paid DLineman. Combine it with an escalating cap and it seems like it’s feasible to keep them all for next few years. Dan does not have the cash to pay the signing bonus. If you notice i think we signed terry after the team got the tv money paid to them and was able to pay the bonus 23 minutes ago, bowhunter said: Is there a team out there that would trade for Carson, especially if we paid most of his salary this year? Maybe a 3rd or 4th?? Anyone? Nope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FootballZombie Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, bowhunter said: Is there a team out there that would trade for Carson, especially if we paid most of his salary this year? Maybe a 3rd or 4th?? Anyone? Per 2023: We would not have to eat any salary and it would not make much sense to do so, at least on his current contract. Any team he is moved to would be w/ the understanding that he will re-negotiate his deal (and would probably already have the framework in place) since he has no G money. That would not cost us a dime. New team inherits the full 26 Mil, then reworks his deal to something reasonable. Or we rework his deal to something reasonable, then take a much smaller dead cap hit when trading him, which would be weird but possible. For us to eat most of that 26 Mil to trade him, you would have to get compensation back that is worth that dead cap hit... and you wont. You'd be better off just cutting him, or reworking his deal yourself and keeping him. Edited October 31, 2022 by FootballZombie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowhunter Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 8 hours ago, FootballZombie said: Per 2023: We would not have to eat any salary and it would not make much sense to do so, at least on his current contract. Any team he is moved to would be w/ the understanding that he will re-negotiate his deal (and would probably already have the framework in place) since he has no G money. That would not cost us a dime. New team inherits the full 26 Mil, then reworks his deal to something reasonable. Or we rework his deal to something reasonable, then take a much smaller dead cap hit when trading him, which would be weird but possible. For us to eat most of that 26 Mil to trade him, you would have to get compensation back that is worth that dead cap hit... and you wont. You'd be better off just cutting him, or reworking his deal yourself and keeping him. Unless you feel that he is not the future, which many here do. He's already on our books for 2022. Cutting him next year gets us nothing in return. I'd rather ride with a lil Hiney and a lot of Sam. So trading for a pick (or player) helps just a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 Ravens get Roquan Smith from the Bears. Giants and maybe the Pukes after a WR before the deadline. Eagles after a RB. Could be a few moves happening in the division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooleyfan1993 Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 Just now, Est.1974 said: Ravens get Roquan Smith from the Bears. Giants and maybe the Pukes after a WR before the deadline. Eagles after a RB. Could be a few moves happening in the division. While this team sits around and does nothing😑 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLSkinz83 Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 Would love to add a CB and LB, but I'm sure we won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 Some form of OL move is what I want to see. Also stacks of WRs on the block by the looks of it. Not necessarily an obvious need right now but it could be an opportune time to get one in at a reasonable cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoVaSkins21 Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 This team won't and can't make any moves since they barely have any money left after taking on the $28M in salary with the Wentz contract which looks like such a waste. Any real moves will have to wait until the offseason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 Just now, NoVaSkins21 said: This team won't and can't make any moves since they barely have any money left after taking on the $28M in salary with the Wentz contract which looks like such a waste. Any real moves will have to wait until the offseason Not necessarily. Ravens acquired Roquan Smith and are only paying him 570k for the remainder of the year. Trading WJ3, however unlikely, might creat space too. Not expecting a significant move, if at all, but we do have capacity for some dealing IMO. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoVaSkins21 Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 2 hours ago, Est.1974 said: Not necessarily. Ravens acquired Roquan Smith and are only paying him 570k for the remainder of the year. Trading WJ3, however unlikely, might create space too. Not expecting a significant move, if at all, but we do have capacity for some dealing IMO. I don't see them finding a trading partner for WJ3. They need to just eat the dead cap money and outright cut him now or in the offseason Another high-priced FA bust and malcontent to boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Tomb Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 4 hours ago, FLSkinz83 said: Would love to add a CB and LB, but I'm sure we won't. Absolutely - I don’t remember the last time we brought someone in mid season. Or when we offloaded a valued player for picks for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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