Assault on education

[Destino]

That’s an interesting perspective @PeterMP and I appreciate you sharing it. Ultimately though I have a problem with any school system that feels it’s their place to do anything but push kids to go as far as they can. I don’t like the thinking I sense in slowing anyone down to narrow a gap. Feels like a lazy shortcut to a desired outcome that isn’t real.

But I don’t like tracks. I don’t like paths that are locked in early. I don’t like kids feeling like they’re on rails and in no control of their lives before they even begin to think about their future in detail.  

 

I think what schools need to do is extend extra help to under achievers after school and in the summer. At no cost. Then provide more openings to join more advanced classes. The only requirement being behavioral. Celebrate each kid that successfully makes use of these tools to move ahead. I like keeping hope alive and giving kids a reason to work hard that they can understand. If you’ll excuse a sports metaphor, I like that kids that couldn't play being able to work hard and make team the next year regardless of where they were at some earlier grade.  They mature at different rates, and have very different parents, so it makes no sense to send them to a different school and just assume all those left behind will never change. 
 

Any kid can pick up a basketball and work on his game in his free time, but how many kids can just learn math they’re unfamiliar with on their own? Those with parents that can afford extra classes can, but who else? It just doesn’t happen. I read these articles and that’s the element I feel that they’re all missing. How does a kid that matures more slowly and has no advantages at home get ahead? Where is the encouragement and opportunity? 
 

is what I’m suggesting here impossible? I’m not an educator so it’s entirely possible everything I’ve said here is ridiculous nonsense. Wouldn’t be the first time. 

[dfitzo53]

1 hour ago, Destino said:

That’s an interesting perspective @PeterMP and I appreciate you sharing it. Ultimately though I have a problem with any school system that feels it’s their place to do anything but push kids to go as far as they can. I don’t like the thinking I sense in slowing anyone down to narrow a gap. Feels like a lazy shortcut to a desired outcome that isn’t real.

But I don’t like tracks. I don’t like paths that are locked in early. I don’t like kids feeling like they’re on rails and in no control of their lives before they even begin to think about their future in detail.  

 

I think what schools need to do is extend extra help to under achievers after school and in the summer. At no cost. Then provide more openings to join more advanced classes. The only requirement being behavioral. Celebrate each kid that successfully makes use of these tools to move ahead. I like keeping hope alive and giving kids a reason to work hard that they can understand. If you’ll excuse a sports metaphor, I like that kids that couldn't play being able to work hard and make team the next year regardless of where they were at some earlier grade.  They mature at different rates, and have very different parents, so it makes no sense to send them to a different school and just assume all those left behind will never change. 
 

Any kid can pick up a basketball and work on his game in his free time, but how many kids can just learn math they’re unfamiliar with on their own? Those with parents that can afford extra classes can, but who else? It just doesn’t happen. I read these articles and that’s the element I feel that they’re all missing. How does a kid that matures more slowly and has no advantages at home get ahead? Where is the encouragement and opportunity? 
 

is what I’m suggesting here impossible? I’m not an educator so it’s entirely possible everything I’ve said here is ridiculous nonsense. Wouldn’t be the first time. 

Just to get it out of the way, I think advanced classes should be available. I think it's vital actually. There's a lot I would change about the way we implement math education though. 

 

Speaking more specifically about your ideas, I think they're worth pursuing. At the school where I teach now, every teacher (yes, every teacher, it's a policy) offers free help at least once a week after school, and many go beyond that. Our school also offers a summer program to help kids who want to take advanced math classes but haven't done so before get prepared. 

 

It definitely helps, and it helps some kids a *lot*. One of the challenges is that a lot of students simply don't take advantage of those opportunities for one reason or another. Some have to watch younger siblings after school. Some just aren't interested enough, at least in a particular subject. 

 

In my experience the hard part isn't making supports available, it's getting a critical mass of kids (and by extension, families) to really buy in. There is sometimes a lot of social pressure in middle school to not stand out academically. Part of it is normal adolescent development that people grow out of, but part of it is a deep-rooted toxicity that seems to permeate American education and maybe even human nature. 

[PeterMP]

15 hours ago, Destino said:

That’s an interesting perspective @PeterMP and I appreciate you sharing it. Ultimately though I have a problem with any school system that feels it’s their place to do anything but push kids to go as far as they can. I don’t like the thinking I sense in slowing anyone down to narrow a gap. Feels like a lazy shortcut to a desired outcome that isn’t real.

But I don’t like tracks. I don’t like paths that are locked in early. I don’t like kids feeling like they’re on rails and in no control of their lives before they even begin to think about their future in detail.  

 

I think what schools need to do is extend extra help to under achievers after school and in the summer. At no cost. Then provide more openings to join more advanced classes. The only requirement being behavioral. Celebrate each kid that successfully makes use of these tools to move ahead. I like keeping hope alive and giving kids a reason to work hard that they can understand. If you’ll excuse a sports metaphor, I like that kids that couldn't play being able to work hard and make team the next year regardless of where they were at some earlier grade.  They mature at different rates, and have very different parents, so it makes no sense to send them to a different school and just assume all those left behind will never change. 
 

Any kid can pick up a basketball and work on his game in his free time, but how many kids can just learn math they’re unfamiliar with on their own? Those with parents that can afford extra classes can, but who else? It just doesn’t happen. I read these articles and that’s the element I feel that they’re all missing. How does a kid that matures more slowly and has no advantages at home get ahead? Where is the encouragement and opportunity? 
 

is what I’m suggesting here impossible? I’m not an educator so it’s entirely possible everything I’ve said here is ridiculous nonsense. Wouldn’t be the first time. 

 

1.  I don't think the school is really slowing people down.  They just aren't putting them in a classroom that is as advantageous to learning.  That naturally turns into a breaking system.  It isn't like they are telling people they can't learn algebra.

 

My oldest daughter, not in an advanced classroom, could have gone faster but practically because she was in a room with kids that were behavioral issues and that took the teachers time and effort, she went less fast.  I know she could go faster because I was teaching her at home beyond what the school was teaching and she was understanding things.

 

The idea that a school can push every kid as far as fast as possible just isn't practical unless you want to see a huge increase in spending in education.  You'd need teachers for groups of 5-15 kids based on behavior, interest, and ability.  What most advanced math programs that I know of are doing are taking out the best kids signaling them out for special instruction in a special environment to push them a head.  When my older daughter was in 4th grade, she might not have been able to academically compete with the best in her class.  But she could have absolutely gone faster in school if she'd been put in a better classroom environment.

 

And realistically by pulling out the better kids, for the kids that are left behind, you make their classroom experience worse (a larger percent of the kids that are left are behavior issues).  You are slowing down their learning by making on average a more disruptive classroom.

 

The programs that are teaching math early, aren't about pushing everybody ahead as fast as possible (to my knowledge)  They are about pushing the "best" ahead essentially at the expense of everybody else.

 

You take 20 kids with a wide range of academic abilities, behaviors, and interest and everybody's learning is slowed down compared to what it optimally could be.  What advanced math classes do is they narrow that range specifically for the kids at the top making it possible for them to go faster while leaving everybody else in classes with a pretty wide range.

 

Why not stick the top students with the poorer students and push the middle faster ahead?  

 

2.  I think you over estimate how many kids make jumps in athletics today.  You have the A team and B team and the red or blue or whatever.  The kids on the lower team in my experience got less good coaching, got the poorer practice field, practice time, and partly because of who they were their practice had less value etc.  My oldest daughter played soccer.  No kid ever made the jump from the B team to the A team, and they initially divided them at like 7.  Of all of the kids I know of that played sports, I know one kid that made that jump.  In girls soccer, kids that weren't on the A team starting at 7 years old or so made the 9th grade team in high school, but by 11th grade they were all off the high school team.

 

I didn't really play basketball until I was in 7th grade or so and then it was in my back yard with my brothers and what I taught myself to compete with them.  My game ended up being a bit unorthodox, but it was good enough that I could compete in 9th grade with others that had played for years and make high school teams.  But time has changed and the kids that I was playing against in 9th grade weren't going to summer camps where they were getting trained by D1 player, coaches, and ex-pro players.  They weren't getting professional trainers at their practice all year long.

 

3.  I also think today with Kahn academy and other online systems a motivated and good student could push themselves ahead academically and in math.  Really today that's easier today to do than in sports where being able to see and evaluate your physical form is so important and the physical contact.  The dribbling drills that they do today to teach people to keep their balance and dribble and finish through contact aren't at all possible by yourself.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6muOragNYMs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft0zC5nnYfQ

 

What you are saying isn't impossible.  I just don't think it is very feasible given the resources most schools have.  Running buses, finding teachers, providing lunches etc. for kids during the summer isn't practical for most schools.  Add on that some kids to work or watch siblings, and giving them extra time in the summer to get help doesn't actually help.

 

I think most people would tell you the ideal class room would be about 10 kids.  Unless there is money to support that with good pay to get in good people to teach, then a lot of kids are learning more slowly than ideally.

 

https://www.usnews.com/education/k12/articles/does-your-childs-class-size-matter

 

What advanced math classes do say is the top kids learning as fast as possible is the most important.  And I don't think that's really true.  And is really an ethical/political value decision.

Edited July 16, 2023 by PeterMP

[TheGreatBuzz]

I'm gonna share my story here just because I think your guys insights might be interesting and I've not put too much thought into it.

 

After getting hit by the car, my parents had been told to expect me to have major learning disabilities due to brain damage.  1st grade I don't really remember other than being in trouble a few times.  2nd grade I remember getting pulled aside alot for tests and I always felt (and did) like I did well and they seemed easy.  I continued to always be a disruption in class, get in trouble, and not do my homework.  I always aced any tests though.  Some point that year, my parents got called in for conference and figured they were going to be told I was retarded. 

 

Apparently it was the opposite and wanted to move me to advanced classes.  They thought that would help my behavior but it didn't.  I continued in advanced classes through 7th grade never doing my homework but passing the tests because I could figure it out by being a good test taker and slightly listening during class or breezing through the text book for a few minutes.  I don't have a photographic memory but still had a very good one.  I could read something once, get the gist of it, and answer basic questions.  

 

The one area I struggled was English.  I read A LOT as a kid about just random interesting things.  That general knowledge also probably helped me test.  Around 4th grade or so, I was failing English tests because I wouldn't read their books and that isn't just something you can BS thru.  Not knowing the main characters name would make that difficult.  The school and my parents decided that I could find books they would approve to read and be tested on etc.  Usually history books because biographies interested me.  Still to this day I enjoy just reading random interesting bull****.  I also weirdly liked certain classics; Huck Finn, Catcher in the Rye, and Flower for Algernon.  The latter oddly seems to be a good description for how I now feel the arc of my life has gone.

 

That stopped sometime in middle school I believe.  I remember The Tale of Two Cities was the breaking point.  They said I had to read it.  I gave it like one chapter and said no thanks.  8th grade would be the last time I would pass English and therfore technically have an 8th grade education.  I do remember an specific incident during a parent teacher conference, the teacher mentioned her child had ADD, explained it, and said I should be tested.  My parents responded with something that essentially said that just sounds like a discipline issue.  History would suggest this is wrong. 

 

I rebelled more and more and started really hitting my stride in being a trouble maker in high school.  But I kept passing math.  I always excelled at math and could do it once I got a quick explanation.  I was in a math class several grades ahead my whole life.   I would help my sisters with their math and they were 4 and 8 years ahead of me.  I remember one specific example where I was sleeping in math class and the teacher had written some math riddle on the board for the class to work on.  He woke me and told me I needed to work on it.  I took a few seconds to read it, gave the correct answer,  and put my head back down.  They all left me alone for a while after that.  **Fun fact: I only did that because I had seen the puzzle before and took a few minutes to work it out so I already knew the answer.  I didn't really do it that fast.

 

I became more trouble and rarely even bothered going to school.  My math teachers wanted to keep advancing me and tried to send me to community college for math classes but everyone else already knew I wouldn't bother showing up.  By 11th grade, I had a job and everyone finally gave up.  I had only been to class for like 6 days by the midpoint of the school year.  The school called my parents and said they could expel me or I could save everyone the time and drop out so that's what happened. 

 

Fast forward to when I was 20 and I finally started realizing being ****head wasn't what I wanted to keep doing and that I wanted to get out of Southern Maryland but my current lifestyle wasn't making that happen.  I started kicking around the idea of the military (lots in my family) but wasn't sure I wanted that much discipline.  9/11 happens and I leave for the Navy.  Took orders to Japan and didn't look back.  To this day, I haven't seen or talked to probably 90% of the people I hung with pre-Navy.  Then once in the Navy, I cut out a few closer friends because I told them I was straighting out my life and didn't need them affecting my security clearance.  I encouraged them to do the same but as far as I'm aware, they never did.

 

I purposely picked a job path in the Navy that had a very low intelligence level requirements.  My detailer was mad because of this but I figured if I surround myself with stupid people, I wouldn't have to work as hard since I am smarter.  This also would prove false.

 

After my accident while the docs were pissing away diagnosing me, they made me go see a shrink that deals with people that have chronic pain.  He said he found me pretty interesting and that I was a fun example of intelligence, ADHD, and OCD.  Said I was lucky that the holes in the Swiss cheese lined up.  

 

One thing he said though was that imagine if back in elementary school, the right people had taken me and done a specific, specialized teaching.  He said "you could have been honed correctly and been an extremely successful person."

 

I told him I already was.

 

He said he was really happy to hear and asked why my doctors had sent me to him.

 

BECAUSE NAVY DOCTORS DONT ****ING LISTEN!!!!

 

 

 

Edited July 16, 2023 by TheGreatBuzz

[tshile]

16 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

I struggled academically as an elementary school student and through middle school.  I was never really a behavior problem, but I just didn't work in school (Realistically, there were probably physical and mental developmental/social/home issues that were a factor, but let's just say I rarely finished classwork in class, did no homework (so didn't finish classwork that I didn't finish in class as homework), didn't do projects that I was supposed to do at home, and didn't study so I did poorly in school.)

 

The school system I was in had a talented and gifted program (TAG) that started in 3rd grade where they pulled out the better students for a special class (a heterogenous system).  I didn't make it in.  

this was me too. Except my system maintained the separation and my children are now on the same district and the system is still in place. 
 

it wasn’t until my 3rd and 4th year of a comp sci major when I finally got my act together. Appreciated school. Went from doing just enough to not fail, to acing things. I went from 2.8-3.2 gpa land (in basic classes) my whole life, to 4.0 while taking a course load that included intro to AI, data mining, operating system design, differential equations… at a time where most students GPA’s drop and many of my classes were technically electives because they were so hard they didn’t want them to be core classes which are judged differently from in class grading to overall graduation requirements… I was just acing everything. I even got into the #4 grad school at the time for AI. 
 

I always thought of the changing being going from mundane, tedious course work and topics that I could get by without failing with little to no work (I often skipped class or slept through class. I had classes in college I showed up for tests for and nothing else. I usually figured out the total weight of non-tests on final grade and if it was less than15% I’d basically do none of it) to a course load that required real effort and wasn’t obvious to me

 

but after reading your post there was a different change I probably never considered enough. I found myself surrounded by aspiring grad students, working on projects the faculty was running with students, sitting in the grad assistants room even though I wasn’t one of them, and following professors back to their office from class talking about the upcoming robocup team, how many flockbots we actually had to play with, and whether they finished disassembling the roomba and got their testing firmware loaded onto it…

 

I did better cause I went from being surrounded by basic student body doing seemingly menial stuff to being surrounded by all these really bright people and subconsciously trying to keep up with them. 
 

it’s kind of like sports. You’re only as good as the people you practice against. If you want to grow and get better you gotta practice against people who are better than you. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

Add:  I don't remember anyone really asking my opinions growing up.  I remember at the time, and still now, the reason I liked math is because it is definite *figuratively and that 2+2=4.  There is no opinion in that.  Other classes were about if the teacher liked my explanation of something meaning there was room for interpretation no matter how much they didn't want to admit it.  I HATED this.  I feel like it would have been key information in trying to figure out what to do with me though. 

 

But because I liked to disrupt class, this is where I would develop a skill that would save my career on more than one occasion.  The ability for me to read something, pick out parts that supported my position with no care as to if I actually believed what I said as long as it helped me win my argument.  I used it to show my teachers they were wrong and I was smarter.  I could twist almost anything into supporting my position, even if I had just made up that position on the fly.

 

Age and experience would eventually teach me that I should listen to different opinions and stuff.  But not when I was a teenager.  I was smarter than everyone which meant I knew everything there was to know.  This also proved false eventually. 

Edited July 16, 2023 by TheGreatBuzz
Proofreading sucks

[Larry]

3 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

But because I liked to disrupt class, this is where I would develop a skill that would save my career on more than one occasion.  The ability for me to read something, pick out parts that supported my position with no care as to if I actually believed what I said as long as it helped me win my argument.  I used it to show my teachers they we wrong and I was smarter.  I could twist almost anything into supporting my position, even if I had just made up that position on the fly.

 

Thus leading to a successful career as a Tailgate poster.  

 

[PeterMP]

25 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Add:  I don't remember anyone really asking my opinions growing up.  I remember at the time, and still now, the reason I liked math is because it is definite *figuratively and that 2+2=4.  There is no opinion in that.  Other classes were about if the teacher liked my explanation of something meaning there was room for interpretation no matter how much they didn't want to admit it.  I HATED this.  I feel like it would have been key information in trying to figure out what to do with me though. 

 

But because I liked to disrupt class, this is where I would develop a skill that would save my career on more than one occasion.  The ability for me to read something, pick out parts that supported my position with no care as to if I actually believed what I said as long as it helped me win my argument.  I used it to show my teachers they we wrong and I was smarter.  I could twist almost anything into supporting my position, even if I had just made up that position on the fly.

 

Age and experience would eventually teach me that I should listen to different opinions and stuff.  But not when I was a teenager.  I was smarter than everyone which meant I knew everything there was to know.  This also proved false eventually. 

 

Interesting.  I actually hated math.  The idea of doing the same type of problem over and over again (my 5th grade math teacher would assign us like 25 long division problems) was not interesting at all.  And then I had developmental issues where my coordination was just awful and my hand writing was really bad so for me to write them out legibly took me forever.  Even if I tried to finish my classwork in class, I couldn't.  Which meant it was homework, which I never did.  I guess I understood the math, but I had no interest in doing the work to do well in the class or really demonstrating to my teachers that I understood it.

 

I much preferred to read.  Rather than do math, I'd read my science and social studies textbooks.  But I'd be done with them by the end of Dec.  Which then also created problems in science and social studies because I'd be way ahead of what the teacher was teaching.  I actually did pretty well in those classes because tests were a lot of multiple choice which meant that I didn't have to write and worry about making things legible , and I could ace them.  But I never did any projects so that brought my grades down.

 

I have no doubt today if I was in school I would be diagnosed with ADHD or something.  I'm not sure how that would have affected my academic standing.  I never really misbehaved in class.  I just didn't pay attention.  Even today, if I get bored I can go to sleep pretty easily, so I'd sleep a lot in school, read something that wasn't school work, or just draw nonsense.

 

To echo @tshile's point.  I was always interested in science and did pretty well in it (I'd actually read the whole textbook from cover to cover).  But it wasn't until I fell in with a certain peer group that I understood what it took to do well in school and how to do it, that I actually started doing well in school.  It also helped as I got older that I caught up from a developmental/coordination stand point.  I am the example of the top pulling the bottom up.

 

I got to where I got to playing basketball because I worked at it.  But I worked at it so that I could compete against my older brothers who at the time were older, taller, stronger, and more coordinated than me.  They were my measuring stick.

 

And you lose that with advanced math classes.  And really the way it is done today in the cases that I know of you end up with the bottom pulling the middle down because you stick the middle with the kids that have behavioral issues that take time away from the education of everybody else in those classes.

 

In every case that I've ever seen, advanced math classes are really saying the education of the top is the most important.  But I'm not sure that's true.  If the top is pushed ahead at the expense of the middle (and even the bottom), what kind of society do you end up with?

Edited July 16, 2023 by PeterMP

[TheGreatBuzz]

11 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

Interesting.  I actually hated math.  The idea of doing the same type of problem over and over again (my 5th grade math teacher would assign us like 25 long division problems) was not interesting at all

 

I don't like math, it just never bothered me.  It was more of an annoyance doing it.  I remember the 25 question sheets.  I could knock it out pretty quick if I didn't show my work.  That was another thing I rebelled against.  The answer is 4.672 and that is what I wrote.  I didn't just pull that out of my ass, you're just jealous because I can math better than you (to the teacher).  

 

16 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

Rather than do math, I'd read my science and social studies textbooks.  

 

Me too but it was social studies and history.  I would read both of those books like the first week of the year and be good for the year.  I didn't like science though.  I just didn't care how a plant made oxygen.  It did its job and I'll do mine.

 

18 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

Even today, if I get bored I can go to sleep pretty easily, so I'd sleep a lot in school, read something that wasn't school work, or just draw nonsen

 

Exact opposite here.  I always have to be doing something to this day.  Even if it is just candy crush, up to the point of exhaustion I can't sleep but can't be just doing nothing.  I take sleeping meds (not major ones, more like causes drowsiness) now but I get very anxious if I don't have some form of stimulation.  I always have to have a radio or something going to sleep also in case I wake up, it can't be quiet.  I'm sure of this is from being hit by the car but the military isn't exactly a place known for making those issues better either.

 

As for the rest or it, my experience tells me that the education system definitely needs to be done differently.  I also have no clue what that should be.  And the fact that I don't have kids makes me not care enough to want to fix it either.

[Larry]

27 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

And then I had developmental issues where my coordination was just awful and my hand writing was really bad so for me to write them out legibly took me forever.

 

When I was a kid, my printing was sloppy.  And my Dad gave me a tip that helped a bunch.  

 

See, an x, a y, and the multiplication symbol can all look pretty similar.  Especially if you're writing quickly.  

 

So Dad told me that in engineering school, he learned to write x and y in cursive.  Because a cursive x looks very different from a multiplication symbol, or a y.  

[TheGreatBuzz]

3 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

When I was a kid, my printing was sloppy.  And my Dad gave me a tip that helped a bunch.  

 

See, an x, a y, and the multiplication symbol can all look pretty similar.  Especially if you're writing quickly.  

 

So Dad told me that in engineering school, he learned to write x and y in cursive.  Because a cursive x looks very different from a multiplication symbol, or a y.  

 

 I don't remember when I heard it but I started using a dot instead of an x to mean multiply.  I think it was tight to me but I'm not sure.  Anyone else taught that?

[Larry]

Just now, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

 I don't remember when I heard it but I started using a dot instead of an x to mean multiply.  I think it was tight to me but I'm not sure.  Anyone else taught that?

 

Rub it in, youngster.  

 

[TheGreatBuzz]

7 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Rub it in, youngster.  

 

 

Is that a youngster thing?

 

Add:  I know for a while when I taught math in the Navy, I don't remember anyone else being familiar with that. 

Edited July 16, 2023 by TheGreatBuzz

[dfitzo53]

4 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

 I don't remember when I heard it but I started using a dot instead of an x to mean multiply.  I think it was tight to me but I'm not sure.  Anyone else taught that?

That's standard practice around 6th grade. 

[PokerPacker]

And then you get to matrices and there's a different "dot" product and "cross" product for multiplication.

[Cooked Crack]

 

[JCB]

I remember when Republicans were upset about Soviet groupthink and propaganda. Nothing of use in that party, please **** off out of America.

[Cooked Crack]

 

[Captain Wiggles]

🤷‍♂️

 

 

[China]

Benefited from slavery? Critics say some of the state’s examples were never even slaves.

 

The Florida Department of Education faced angry reaction from across the nation this week to new African American history standards suggesting some slaves benefited from skills they learned while enslaved.

 

Responding to mounting criticism, the department issued a statement Thursday offering 16 examples of historic figures it said fit that description. That they developed highly specialized abilities that helped them later in life is “factual and well documented,” the department stated.

 

Asked for more information on Friday, Florida’s Department of Education cited as references “The Colored Patriots of the American Revolution,” an 1895 book by William Cooper Nell, and “Encyclopedia of African American History 1619-1895,″ a 2006 book edited by Paul Finkelman.

 

Alex Lanfranconi, a spokesperson for the department, said the experts stand behind their examples. Frances Presley Rice, a co-founder of the Yocum African American History Association and chairperson of the National Black Republican Association, provided the information to the department.

 

But other sources offer conflicting descriptions of the 16 historic figures, and critics came forward to attack the department’s claims. Among the problems: Historic sources show several of the 16 individuals were never even slaves.

 

Click on the link for the full article

[EmirOfShmo]

1 minute ago, China said:

Benefited from slavery? Critics say some of the state’s examples were never even slaves.

 

Click on the link for the full article

 

Thread...

 

 

[The Evil Genius]

 

[Destino]

What a stupid hill to die on. Everyone understands slavery was abhorrent, even those hell bent on pretending otherwise. It’s a very simple concept to understand. Work or I’ll beat you, isn’t complicated. Children being sold into a lifetime of cruelty and humiliation isn’t “arguably” evil, it’s self evident and undeniable. Trying to sneak in a little toxic positivity to make it seem like anything other than a nightmare is cowardice.

[Dan T.]

4 hours ago, EmirOfShmo said:

 

Thread...

 

 

 

 

This is an absolute evisceration of the people who wrote Florida's new education standards on slavery.  What an absolute embarrassment that these "educators" got so much so wrong on this subject.

[China]

18 minutes ago, Destino said:

What a stupid hill to die on. 

 

The problem is they're not dying on this hill.  People are supporting them.  If they were actually dying or killing themselves politically with any of the stupid **** they are doing then it'd be OK, because at least they would be seeing repercussions.  Unfortunately they're not.