Assault on education

[Destino]

1 hour ago, MartinC said:

I think views on this would be heavily dependent on a persons political and religious beliefs. I certainly think of educators having a role (but certainly not the sole role) in helping children develop a sense of morals.

 

Helping develop, certainly, but what about defining?  When you’re trying to establish wether or not something is moral, regardless of your religious belief or lack thereof, have you ever thought “what would a 5th grade math teacher say?”  I’m betting the answer is no, and this is not meant to insult teachers.  I’m sure there are many outstanding 5th grade math teachers with shockingly well attuned innate moral compasses.  It’s just not their role of a school system to decide these things unilaterally in our society.

 

1 hour ago, MartinC said:

I would put teachers WAY ahead of say politicians and even clergy in that respect (but appreciate the later is a function of my own lack of religious beliefs). 

I would disqualify politicians entirely on principle.  I don’t believe they all start out as snakes but the process of amassing power clearly corrupts over time.  Moral leadership is its own field of study that somehow manages to be both a foundational aspect of culture and an individual philosophy. These questions are highly subjective, usually arbitrary though sometimes supported by arguments concerning efficiency and greater good, and normally the realm of philosophy and religion (if a person is religious).  
 

because these things are so intertwined with culture a public school meant to be a shared space has to take the families it serves into account.

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, Destino said:

It’s just not their role of a school system to decide these things unilaterally in our society.

I think this is the problem. The school system does NOT unilaterally decide these things. It plays a role alongside parents, peer groups, media, organized religion - even politicians (if only as a cautionary tale!) I would argue a very positive role.

 

I think that Republicans painting public schools as institutions radicalizing young people with left wing ideals and turning them into sexual deviants is about as in touch with reality as the idea drag shows influence children to change their sexuality.

 

The real issue Republicans have with education is it teaches people (or attempts to teach them) critical reasoning skills. People using critical reasoning on most Republican policies or talking points is not something they want to encourage.

[Larry]

3 hours ago, Destino said:

Educators aren’t viewed by the general public as moral leaders.  Republicans have seized on this and framed it as if schools are trying to assume that role.

 

They are performing that role.  

 

Every time the teacher tells Billy that it isn't right to hit Suzzy, they're teaching morality.  

 

You can't not teach morality.  The teacher, simply by standing up there, is doing that.  

 

The problem is that some people have a problem with the morality being taught.  Like teaching that no, your "religious freedom" does not mean that you can demand that no one in the school is permitted to admit that they know a gay person.  

[tshile]

To add - not all these issues are seen as moralistic in nature by everyone. 
 

In my experience, you often run into situations where one side is treating an issue as moralistic in nature and the other isn’t. This usually seems to be an impasse, one the two sides don’t recognize or acknowledge. It makes it impossible for the two sides to even communicate. 
 

also in my experience, the left is more often the one declaring an issue as moralistic. It leads to claims about how something is (or should be) a right, when it clearly isn’t (and dubious whether it should be, but often it seems they just insist it is a right)

[Cooked Crack]

 

 

[China]

Florida teacher's union sues DeSantis over a new law that forces teachers to pay union dues through mail-in checks

 

Florida's largest teacher's union sued Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis on Tuesday over a bill he signed into law that will require teachers who want to be in unions to mail in checks every month. 

 

The union accused DeSantis of punishing "disfavored unions" through the law given that the new, "draconian" restrictions applied to some labor groups but not those representing firefighter and police officers — groups that back the governor politically. 

 

Under the new law, teacher union dues would no longer get automatically deducted from their paychecks, as they do in most unions across the US. The law was widely panned by Florida Democrats as "union busting" and Florida Education Association president Andrew Spar described it as "political retribution" during a press conference Wednesday. 

 

The law imposes additional responsibilities on unions, including mandating new reporting to the state on the number of employees eligible for membership and how many ended up enrolling. Those with less than 60% membership would need to reapply for certification.

 

On average, roughly 60% of teachers in Florida are paying dues toward their unions, a Florida Senate analysis found.

 

The changes will make it harder for unions to exist and pile red tape onto teachers, Florida Senate Democratic Leader Lauren Book said in a statement. 

 

"We can trust teachers to make their own personal choices in how they spend their hard-earned money, and attempting to silence the groups that advocate for better pay and better working conditions is unconstitutional and undemocratic," she said. 

 

Click on the link for the full article

 

[philibusters]

I don't think parents have problems with schools implementing basic morality.  For the sake of argument lets say 95% of morality is via consensus and 5% is disputed.   I think most of the controversy is over that 5%.  I think both sides want to control the narrative on that 5% but they go about it in different ways.   On the right, where they are more likely to control the political processes and less likely to have a majority of teachers who hold their beliefs, they want to control the narrative via legislation and control from the top.  On the left, where they are going to have a majority of teachers who hold their beliefs, they are more likely to let individual teachers do their thing and then argue teachers need a wide latitude of discretion if challenged on it.

[China]

15 hours ago, Cooked Crack said:

 

 

 

 

Besides being imbecilic and harmful to their children, it would also be illegal.

[China]

 

[The Evil Genius]

More info. We truly live in the worst timeline.

 

 

[The Evil Genius]

If they can get into UC Berkeley, they aren't likely going to a subpar Florida achool. 

[Captain Wiggles]

Quote

FL colleges are now going to solely focus on “the basics.”

 

[Jabbyrwock]

3 hours ago, The Evil Genius said:

If they can get into UC Berkeley, they aren't likely going to a subpar Florida achool. 

 

Not true...schools like UC Berkeley are pricing themselves out of out-of-state attendees.  My son had a huge number of big name schools he got into, but in the end picked a state college because the increase in tuition for simply crossing state lines wasn't remotely worth the price, even with the scholarships.  I'll bet there are any number of kids in Florida that could get into Berkeley, no problem, and will opt for UF or FSU simply because out of state tuition is insane.

[The Evil Genius]

1 hour ago, Jabbyrwock said:

 

Not true...schools like UC Berkeley are pricing themselves out of out-of-state attendees.  My son had a huge number of big name schools he got into, but in the end picked a state college because the increase in tuition for simply crossing state lines wasn't remotely worth the price, even with the scholarships.  I'll bet there are any number of kids in Florida that could get into Berkeley, no problem, and will opt for UF or FSU simply because out of state tuition is insane.

 

Berkeley is consistently ranked one of the top 10, if not top 5, US public schools (ans #1 the oast year on a major listing). And yes, prices are insane. But so is that degree. Dependent on what you use that degree for, it makes a difference between schools. 

 

And yes, UF was top 5. But outside of UF, no one really competes with the UC's in Florida. 

 

Edit..just checked. Out if state tuition difference between UF and Berkeley is roughly 15k a year. So an extra 60k over 4 years, not counting boarding cost differences. Whether that's worth it I guess is dependent on a lot of factors. I personally would prefer a Berkeley education and cultural experience, but I'm also a raging liberal Californian. 😁

Edited May 16, 2023 by The Evil Genius

[Jabbyrwock]

2 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

 

Berkeley is consistently ranked one of the top 10, if not top 5, US public schools. And yes, prices are insane. But so is that degree.

 

Can't speak for other places and fields directly, only know the field and location I work in: kids from "top 10" colleges that I've worked with are not one iota more capable than those from state colleges.  I've worked with kids from Cal Tech, MIT, Berkeley, you name it...they are not one ounce more motivated or capable than their counterparts from University of Nebraska, Maryland, Utah, etc.  The location the degree comes from is pretty much irrelevant to me, and I know I'm not alone in that regard.

[The Evil Genius]

7 minutes ago, Jabbyrwock said:

 

Can't speak for other places and fields directly, only know the field and location I work in: kids from "top 10" colleges that I've worked with are not one iota more capable than those from state colleges.  I've worked with kids from Cal Tech, MIT, Berkeley, you name it...they are not one ounce more motivated or capable than their counterparts from University of Nebraska, Maryland, Utah, etc.  The location the degree comes from is pretty much irrelevant to me, and I know I'm not alone in that regard.

 

Oh I agree with you as I saw it in the fields I have worked in as well (public admin/civil service/planning).

 

I do suspect there are a lot of fields who do see a large degree of differences. 

 

Not to mention they seem to be the best road to median higher pay post college...

 

https://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/best-schools-by-state/bachelors/california

 

 vs

 

https://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/best-schools-by-state/bachelors/florida

Edited May 16, 2023 by The Evil Genius

[The Evil Genius]

According to that link, the average UC Berkeley graduate is starting with a 17k higher salary per year than the average UF graduate. Part of if I am sure is where they are working but nothing is stopping UF kids from going to high paying jobs in Cali, right? 

[Jabbyrwock]

1 minute ago, The Evil Genius said:

nothing is stopping UF kids from going to high paying jobs in Cali, right? 

 

Californians are the type of people I'd emigrate to avoid.  What kind of degenerate puts Kale in a smoothie?  😉

[Larry]

29 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

Out if state tuition difference between UF and Berkeley is roughly 15k a year. So an extra 60k over 4 years, not counting boarding cost differences.

 

Pretty sure that the person you were replying to was comparing the cost of UF vs Berkeley, for a Florida student.  

[The Evil Genius]

23 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Pretty sure that the person you were replying to was comparing the cost of UF vs Berkeley, for a Florida student.  

 

I understood that.

 

Out of state tuition is insane for most major universities.  For example, UF tuition is roughly 4.5x the cost for out of state vs in state.

 

...and Berkeley would be 1/2 the tuition cost for a California resident vs out of state at UF. 

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by The Evil Genius

[The Evil Genius]

Also..niche majors isn't really accurate. 

 

 

Lots of woke molecular biology going on in Berkeley. 😁

[Destino]

6 hours ago, The Evil Genius said:

If they can get into UC Berkeley, they aren't likely going to a subpar Florida achool. 

he really screwed up with “the basics.”  No one chooses a college because it sticks to the basics.  It’s crazy that this got through his political team.  He should have argued that this would free schools to focus on excellence, to lead America into a new era of excellence, rather than being held back by equity by largely communist leaning DEI lunatics that push for segregated spaces and mandatory reeducation.  That would have been on message for his wild eyed republican base.  He’s battling Trump, there’s no time for subdued speech and low stakes.  Everything must be grand and lead to impossibly optimistic outcomes.  Make college great again, type of bull****.  

 

The same people that let him wander out into disaster areas wearing those white boots let him choose “the basics”.  

[China]

38 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

 

Lots of woke molecular biology going on in Berkeley. 😁

 

Well, you can find a lot of cis and trans biological molecules.

Edited May 16, 2023 by China

[The Evil Genius]

Imagine the concept of higher out of state tuition vs in state tuition being controversial/questioned at a STATE university system. 

Edited May 16, 2023 by The Evil Genius

[Jabbyrwock]

8 hours ago, The Evil Genius said:

Imagine the concept of higher out of state tuition vs in state tuition being controversial/questioned at a STATE university system. 

 

I don't think anyone thought it was controversial or questionable, just expensive.  You asserted that a kid that got into Berkeley wouldn't choose a school from Florida.  I said they absolutely would based purely on economics if they were Florida kids given the in-state/out-of-state differences.  I also pointed out that, at least in my field, Berkeley and other "top ten" schools really don't offer a competitive product for the out-of-state price they are asking.  You agreed, at least in your respective field.  So no controversy...just economics.

 

From what I can tell, and of course this is just my own little observation based on the people I see around me, the perception driven market for universities seems to be declining.  I've noted in my nephews, nieces, son and his friends the actual question of "what do I really get for that price?" when it comes to university.  They seem far less interested in leaving with a piece of paper in hand that helps maximize their earning potential (I got a degree from X), and far more interested in leaving with experience and knowledge in their head...and cash left in their pocket.  And they have more than taken note that graduates from Harvard are just as likely to be entitled morons in heaps of debt as graduates from "no-name in state polytechnic 3 teachers" are.  They're shopping...and aren't impressed by brand names.  I think this is all for the good.

 

Honestly I am quite excited by the coming generations: they are motivated, creative, angry and, it turns out, shrewd.  They will finally be out from under the selfish thumb of the baby boom generation that I've had to exist under my whole life, and I'm very interested in where they will take us.