The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randal 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariota and Fromm battle for QB2 and so begins the Handsome Harem for Hartman

[Skinsinparadise]

Put them side by side, and it’s hard to differentiate between the two.

Heinicke: 60.8% completion rate, 4.1% touchdown percentage, 2.9% interception rate, 6.8 yards per attempt. 

Wentz: 62.1% completion rate, 4.3% touchdown percentage, 2.6% interception rate, 6.4 yards per attempt. 

Be honest, if the names were stripped away from the numbers, you wouldn’t be able to guess with any confidence which was Heinicke and which was Wentz. And maybe that’s the point. 

 

The difference with the Commanders under Heinicke has less to do with how he’s throwing the ball and more about the way offensive coordinator Scott Turner is calling plays, the emergence of Brian Robinson to boost the run game and the marked improvement of the defense. 

Under Wentz, the Commanders threw the ball 38.7 times per game. Under Heinicke, that number has dropped to just 28.5. Across the entire season, only four NFL teams have passed the ball less than Heinicke’s Commanders — Chicago (21.2 attempts per game), Atlanta (23), Tennessee (25) and Carolina (28). 

 

Fewer pass attempts (or more carries for Robinson and Antonio Gibson) have coincided with the Commanders shooting up the NFL’s time of possession leaderboard. Washington now leads the league at 32 minutes, 45 seconds. 

“It’s a quarterback’s best friend,” Heinicke said Sunday after the win over Atlanta about Washington’s style of play. “The defense we have, the offensive line with the way they are playing, our run game and our weapons out there, I don’t know any quarterback that wouldn’t want to be on this team.”

 

In raw numbers, Wentz threw for more yards (1,489), touchdowns (10) and interceptions (six) than Heinicke has (1,169 yards, seven touchdowns, five interceptions). Stretched across a 17-game season, here is what their final numbers would be: 

Wentz: 4,219 yards, 28 touchdowns, 17 interceptions. 

Heinicke: 3,312 yards, 20 touchdowns, 14 interceptions. 

For Heinicke, those stats look similar to the ones he put up in his 15 and 1/2 games as Washington’s starter last season (3,419 yards, 20 touchdowns, 15 interceptions). For Wentz, the yards would be a career-high, but the touchdown-to-interception ratio would be the third-worst of his seven-year career. 

 

But there is one key difference in the numbers that could speak to why the offense has run more smoothly with Heinicke under center. He doesn’t take those back-breaking, drive-stalling, mind-numbing sacks that Wentz did — 23, to be exact.

Remember when Wentz was sacked nine times against Philadelphia in Week 3? That’s how many total sacks Heinicke has taken in six starts. Now, part of that is because Heinicke is dropping back significantly less than Wentz was and because the offensive line play has improved. But it can also be attributed to Heinicke’s mobility and skill at maneuvering around the pocket.

 

“He‘s making some quicker decisions, he‘s getting the ball out of his hands,” coach Ron Rivera told reporters Wednesday. “He is not taking the sacks and the hits that he took last year. He’s playing a smarter, quicker game.”

Either way, put both quarterbacks up against the rest of the league, and the picture isn’t pretty. Wentz and Heinicke rank 27th and 28th in passer rating, respectively. In QBR, ESPN’s version of passer rating, Heinicke is significantly ahead of Wentz, who is fourth-worst at 32.9, ahead of just Denver’s Russell Wilson, Houston’s Davis Mills and Carolina’s Baker Mayfield. 

 

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/nov/30/commanders-have-been-better-taylor-heinicke-heinic/

[skins4ever28]

I still can’t believe so many of you want wentz back in. Wentz sucked. And it wasn’t because of a bad oline. He holds the ball way way too long. He doesn’t trust his decision making. Yes, he used to be good. But, you can see his biggest problem is self confidence in his ability. He’s the polar opposite of th. Leave wentz on the bench 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, skins4ever28 said:

I still can’t believe so many of you want wentz back in. Wentz sucked. And it wasn’t because of a bad oline. He holds the ball way way too long. He doesn’t trust his decision making. Yes, he used to be good. But, you can see his biggest problem is self confidence in his ability. He’s the polar opposite of th. Leave wentz on the bench 

I wouldn’t confuse ‘wanting Wentz back in’ with being enamored with Wentz or sold he will turn it around at all.  But Heinicke just isn’t playing very well and every other element of the team has been dragging him for weeks.  That’s not just the eye test speaking, the stats back it up - this is not a sustainable way of winning.  It’s highly likely unless they continue to defy all odds that the tides are going to turn.  Being this close to the playoffs with a top draft slot way out of our reach, I think it’s natural folks would like to see a QB with greater potential.

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, zCommander said:

 

 

 

 

Wentz wasn't playing well when he got injured but Heinicke is basically putting up the same, or slightly worse, numbers. The idea that TH is a major driver in winning games is a bit silly. He's basically asked to hand the ball off a ton, complete occasional short to intermediate passes to help keep the chains moving, and not turn the ball over too much. Having a top 5 rushing attack, a top 5 defense, and getting IOL guys back from injury is why we're winning.

 

Note that this isn't me saying we should pull Heinicke. I've already said that you stay with him while you're still winning. But the idea that he's somehow a major improvement from Wentz just doesn't really hold much water.

[KDawg]

23 minutes ago, skins4ever28 said:

I still can’t believe so many of you want wentz back in. Wentz sucked. And it wasn’t because of a bad oline. He holds the ball way way too long. He doesn’t trust his decision making. Yes, he used to be good. But, you can see his biggest problem is self confidence in his ability. He’s the polar opposite of th. Leave wentz on the bench 

 

I don't think there are many here that are advocating the return of Wentz. Many are wondering what Wentz could do in this system, with the group around him, though.

 

But the best thing for the team is to forget he exists and move on without him going into next year. 

[skinny21]

Count me as one of those curious to see how Wentz would perform with this kind of playcalling from Turner. I get the idea of not wanting to mess with things as we are winning, or the idea of losing the locker room if Heinicke was benched, but if they did make the switch and it worked that would be big.  More chunk plays, defenses having to respect the pass more (potentially opening up more space in the run game), and potentially better red zone production.  I wouldn’t be worried about ‘losing the locker room’ right after the switch is made - I think the team knows Wentz has the potential to lift this offense to the next level.  But if they put him in and he struggles - taking sacks, not sustaining drives, not giving the defense rest… it could get ugly.  So I agree with others that you probably have to at least play Heinicke until the team loses (and he’s seen as a deserving a chunk of the blame).

 

I’ve said all along that I believe Wentz is a better qb, but I think it’s also hard to know how Wentz would fit right now because there’s (IMO) some conflicting evidence.  Yes, in a similar vein of offensive philosophy last year, he put up some solid statistics (far better than Heinicke’s numbers IIRC), but he had some legitimate issues as well.  He’s obviously a better passer than Heinicke, but he also tends to hold the ball longer, and combined with his lack of touch on short passes and eschewing the “easy layups” (assuming those 3 issues continue) run counter to this philosophy.  Of course, it’s also possible that last year’s experience, watching Heinicke play, and (potentially) being more comfortable in this system mitigates those issues.  Who knows.

 

Whether Wentz sees the field again, to me, should come down to 1) how Heinicke and the team perform this week, and 2) how Wentz looks in practice.  If he’s getting the ball out quickly, making sound reads, putting more touch on certain throws, and if Heinicke struggles this week, I’d give Wentz a trial run after the bye.  If Wentz hasn’t shown progress in those areas, I’m keeping Heinicke in, and (as outlandish as it sounds) I might try to get creative with Wentz (or Howell) - giving them some snaps here and there*.

 

 

*I feel like I just ruined a halfway reasonable post with this Madden-esq nonsense, lol.  I just think we could use Wentz (or Howell) like a chess piece.  Put him in and run the ball twice, then pull him out.  Put him in later, run a quick hitter (like a bubble screen or slant), followed by a run play, then pull him again.  Basically, try to take away his propensity for holding the ball and try to take advantage of teams thinking we’ll be trying to hit on a deeper pass (potentially reducing the numbers in the box).  If it’s Howell instead, maybe run a couple RPOs.  Eventually (maybe not even until the next game) you take your chance on a PA shot downfield.  

Maybe (probably) I’m just crazy though.  Just feels like the status quo will run into issues - potentially against the Giants, probably against SF/DAL, and quite possibly in the playoffs if we make it.  It’s risky trying to add this type of wrinkle, but it also feels like we might need some added facet to lift the offense a bit.

[mistertim]

Not thinking our winning has a whole lot to do with Heinicke's play isn't the same thing as wanting Wentz back in. We're winning, so stick with whoever the current QB is, and that's TH.

 

But that doesn't change that our current strategy is likely not sustainable, because so many things have to go right at the same time for it to work.

[zCommander]

18 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Wentz wasn't playing well when he got injured but Heinicke is basically putting up the same, or slightly worse, numbers. The idea that TH is a major driver in winning games is a bit silly. He's basically asked to hand the ball off a ton, complete occasional short to intermediate passes to help keep the chains moving, and not turn the ball over too much. Having a top 5 rushing attack, a top 5 defense, and getting IOL guys back from injury is why we're winning.

 

Note that this isn't me saying we should pull Heinicke. I've already said that you stay with him while you're still winning. But the idea that he's somehow a major improvement from Wentz just doesn't really hold much water.

 

When Taylor came in and we won that game (against the Packers). Did we have top of everything? No. Things did started to gel togather though game by game. Less sacks. More time on the field. The D gettign a chance to rest and so forth. No it is not all Taylor but how we have played improved the overall team. I feel with Wentz that wouldn't have been the case even with some guys coming back. BRob wouldn't have had the rushes he has had as well. We would still be trying to figure out why the passing game is not working and not winning much in the process. Taylor is less of himself vs. last year. He himself ran more too last year. Taylor is not a major improvemnt over Wentz but has been more EFFECTIVE though and that is the key.  Also, he is putting the team in position to win games. He still needs to clear up the mental mistakes and less INTs. 

 

Apprently the OL loves the running aspect of the game. Look at the excitement on their faces. 

 

 

 

[lavar1156]

I think Heinicke needs a good week. If we score less than 20 again I think we should seriously consider making a change during the bye.

[CommanderCarson]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I wouldn’t confuse ‘wanting Wentz back in’ with being enamored with Wentz or sold he will turn it around at all.  But Heinicke just isn’t playing very well and every other element of the team has been dragging him for weeks.  That’s not just the eye test speaking, the stats back it up - this is not a sustainable way of winning.  It’s highly likely unless they continue to defy all odds that the tides are going to turn.  Being this close to the playoffs with a top draft slot way out of our reach, I think it’s natural folks would like to see a QB with greater potential.

I don’t know how you read the article above, and for that matter even watch Wentz earlier in the year, and come away with the conclusion “he has more potential.” He’s got a bigger arm and is taller and that’s about what he has going for him. 
 

Wentz just isn’t right. It looks mental almost, he was playing like it’s his last starting job ever. He would routinely lead the team to 0 points in the first half! That’s mentally draining on a defense, how does no one understand that?! And a lot of the reason we wouldnt score first half points is because Wentz would take back breaking sacks and huge negative plays that renders the run game useless and makes you one dimensional. And when you run like the tin man that’s not a good combo.

 

Its like you only remember the few glamor throws and that his bulk stats are better (because he threw it way more a game) and so he’s the more “prolific” passer. Look at their advanced stats, almost identical and some in favor of Heineke.

 

Like the article points out, we aren’t necessarily winning with awesome QB play. But Taylor’s style of play, ability to avoid sacks, and make plays here or there is helping to win THIS team games. And it’s because we have an incredible defense and running game, which is almost as hard to build as finding one of those elite QBs. But just as dangerous when it comes to competing late in January. The Seahawks in Russell’s early days come to mind, 49ers a couple years back, Ravens back in 2012, etc. Titans have gotten somewhat close with that style as well.

 

Putting Wentz back in and losing a couple games due to back breaking negative plays would be so Washington Football. 

[NeverSurrender]

3 minutes ago, CommanderCarson said:

I don’t know how you read the article above, and for that matter even watch Wentz earlier in the year, and come away with the conclusion “he has more potential.” He’s got a bigger arm and is taller and that’s about what he has going for him. 
 

Wentz just isn’t right. It looks mental almost, he was playing like it’s his last starting job ever. He would routinely lead the team to 0 points in the first half! That’s mentally draining on a defense, how does no one understand that?! And a lot of the reason we wouldnt score first half points is because Wentz would take back breaking sacks and huge negative plays that renders the run game useless and makes you one dimensional. And when you run like the tin man that’s not a good combo.

 

Its like you only remember the few glamor throws and that his bulk stats are better (because he threw it way more a game) and so he’s the more “prolific” passer. Look at their advanced stats, almost identical and some in favor of Heineke.

 

Like the article points out, we aren’t necessarily winning with awesome QB play. But Taylor’s style of play, ability to avoid sacks, and make plays here or there is helping to win THIS team games. And it’s because we have an incredible defense and running game, which is almost as hard to build as finding one of those elite QBs. But just as dangerous when it comes to competing late in January. The Seahawks in Russell’s early days come to mind, 49ers a couple years back, Ravens back in 2012, etc. Titans have gotten somewhat close with that style as well.

 

Putting Wentz back in and losing a couple games due to back breaking negative plays would be so Washington Football. 

Well said sir. That is all.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

24 minutes ago, CommanderCarson said:

I don’t know how you read the article above, and for that matter even watch Wentz earlier in the year, and come away with the conclusion “he has more potential.” He’s got a bigger arm and is taller and that’s about what he has going for him. 
 

Wentz just isn’t right. It looks mental almost, he was playing like it’s his last starting job ever. He would routinely lead the team to 0 points in the first half! That’s mentally draining on a defense, how does no one understand that?! And a lot of the reason we wouldnt score first half points is because Wentz would take back breaking sacks and huge negative plays that renders the run game useless and makes you one dimensional. And when you run like the tin man that’s not a good combo.

 

Its like you only remember the few glamor throws and that his bulk stats are better (because he threw it way more a game) and so he’s the more “prolific” passer. Look at their advanced stats, almost identical and some in favor of Heineke.

 

Like the article points out, we aren’t necessarily winning with awesome QB play. But Taylor’s style of play, ability to avoid sacks, and make plays here or there is helping to win THIS team games. And it’s because we have an incredible defense and running game, which is almost as hard to build as finding one of those elite QBs. But just as dangerous when it comes to competing late in January. The Seahawks in Russell’s early days come to mind, 49ers a couple years back, Ravens back in 2012, etc. Titans have gotten somewhat close with that style as well.

 

Putting Wentz back in and losing a couple games due to back breaking negative plays would be so Washington Football. 

It’s almost as if you are completely ignoring the numerous posts by a variety of posters that have explained in various levels of detail the stark differences between the makeup of the team today, both from a roster and strategy standpoint.

 

I don’t think anyone is interested in seeing Wentz behind Nick Martin and the gang, without BRob, and without a greater emphasis on running the ball.  I doubt anyone is clamoring to drop Wentz back 40+ times a game increasing the likelihood of sacks and offensive holding penalties that put them behind the sticks.

 

It’s hard to take you guys seriously that outright refuse to acknowledge the distinct differences between the makeup and strategy of the team early in the season as opposed to what it’s looked like of late.  Literally every argument is Wentz takes a million sacks and can’t tie his shoes, zero objectivity.
 

Right now my money is on Heinicke getting the opportunity to lose 2 games before he’s pulled.  Which will give you guys a great opportunity to slam Wentz when he likely doesn’t win out to make the playoffs and we’ll get to hear all offseason long about how unfair it was to Heinicke and how he would have moxied the troops to the promise land.  Can’t wait.

Edited December 1, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[mistertim]

10 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

When Taylor came in and we won that game (against the Packers). Did we have top of everything? No. Things did started to gel togather though game by game. Less sacks. More time on the field. The D gettign a chance to rest and so forth. No it is not all Taylor but how we have played improved the overall team. I feel with Wentz that wouldn't have been the case even with some guys coming back. BRob wouldn't have had the rushes he has had as well. We would still be trying to figure out why the passing game is not working and not winning much in the process. Taylor is less of himself vs. last year. He himself ran more too last year. Taylor is not a major improvemnt over Wentz but has been more EFFECTIVE though and that is the key.  Also, he is putting the team in position to win games. He still needs to clear up the mental mistakes and less INTs. 

 

Apprently the OL loves the running aspect of the game. Look at the excitement on their faces. 

 

 

 

Yes, Heinicke is basically doing what he's been asked to do, which is the point. He's not asked to do much. We currently have a top 5 rushing attack and top 5 defense, so they basically just want him to limit mistakes and not try to do too much with his arm.

 

And we have no clue what would have happened with Wentz. They might have stuck with passing more, they might have run more once BRob was healthy and the IOL wasn't as decimated. No way to know.

 

But I agree that for the most part, Heinicke has been effective. However I also think that being an effective QB with the kind of game plan we're running isn't an especially high bar. Some big tests are coming up though. We may have to see what happens when teams are able to shut down our rushing attack and we have to go to the air, especially vs SF.

[Ball Security]

11 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Yes, Heinicke is basically doing what he's been asked to do, which is the point. He's not asked to do much. We currently have a top 5 rushing attack and top 5 defense, so they basically just want him to limit mistakes and not try to do too much with his arm.

 

And we have no clue what would have happened with Wentz. They might have stuck with passing more, they might have run more once BRob was healthy and the IOL wasn't as decimated. No way to know.

 

But I agree that for the most part, Heinicke has been effective. However I also think that being an effective QB with the kind of game plan we're running isn't an especially high bar. Some big tests are coming up though. We may have to see what happens when teams are able to shut down our rushing attack and we have to go to the air, especially vs SF.

I’m excited about the SF game. That’ll be a big test.  They looked like SB contenders in Mexico, but followed it up with only 13 points last week.  Atlanta was able to run on them in week 7 for over 160.  LAC didn’t try to run on them in a close game, only 16 attempts versus 37 passes in a game that they didn’t trail for the first 52 minutes.

[mhd24]

6 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Yes, Heinicke is basically doing what he's been asked to do, which is the point. He's not asked to do much. We currently have a top 5 rushing attack and top 5 defense, so they basically just want him to limit mistakes and not try to do too much with his arm.

 

And we have no clue what would have happened with Wentz. They might have stuck with passing more, they might have run more once BRob was healthy and the IOL wasn't as decimated. No way to know.

 

But I agree that for the most part, Heinicke has been effective. However I also think that being an effective QB with the kind of game plan we're running isn't an especially high bar. Some big tests are coming up though. We may have to see what happens when teams are able to shut down our rushing attack and we have to go to the air, especially vs SF.

But he is making mistakes.  It is just that the defenses we've played are dropping his INTs.  We should have lost the Packers game (Refs had a bogus call that prevented a Packers defensive TD).  

 

He misses a wide open Logan Thomas and throws an INT against Minnesota (could have gone to Milne as well).

 

He throws a dropped INT against the Colts late in the first half in Indy territory.

 

He throws two dropped INTs against Houston.

 

He almost throws a pick 6 against the Falcons last week (11:00 in the 4th quarter).  Dangerous pass that a better defender picks off.  He's really late on this throw.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, mhd24 said:

But he is making mistakes.  It is just that the defenses we've played are dropping his INTs.  We should have lost the Packers game (Refs had a bogus call that prevented a Packers defensive TD).  

 

He misses a wide open Logan Thomas and throws an INT against Minnesota (could have gone to Milne as well).

 

He throws a dropped INT against the Colts late in the first half in Indy territory.

 

He throws two dropped INTs against Houston.

 

He almost throws a pick 6 against the Falcons last week (11:00 in the 4th quarter).  Dangerous pass that a better defender picks off.  He's really late on this throw.

Yeah, there’s reasons he ranks so highly in turnover worthy plays and the team ranks so highly in the luck factor.

 

This is what I mean when I say the tides likely turn.  Not just that teams will adjust and force our hand into passing more, but when we do pass more those drops become picks and the snowball effect begins.

 

I know that’s depressing to a lot of folks and some just refuse to see it because “guys are playing for Heinicke” but it’s the reality.  Obviously I hope all DBs we face have butterfingers and we can plod our way to enough wins to enjoy December and some of January, and Heinicke won’t have to give the ball back to Wentz.  But to pretend that all has been equal and that it’s blasphemous to be intrigued by another option is wild to me, as if we aren’t watching the same games.

 

 

[mhd24]

 

Carson makes this throw easily.

[zCommander]

12 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

 

Carson makes this throw easily.

 

You mean like this one way over Terry's head?

Or this one to end the game...

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by zCommander

[MariusVT]

Sure Heiny isn't putting up better numbers and he's had plenty of throws that he's gotten lucky on DB drops.  Sure maybe Wentz makes some of the throws he misses but how many plays does Heiny make because he doesn't take the sack that Wentz does.  Mobility and awareness go a long way.  Ride or Die with Heiny the rest of the year, cut ties with Wentz in the off season and go back to the drawing board for what QB looks like next year.  Maybe it's Howell but more likely the answer isn't on the team.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

Washington’s interior offensive line has been one of the keys to its success. Left guard Andrew Norwell, center Tyler Larsen and right guard Trai Turner are all large and powerful — each is at least 6 feet 3 and 310 pounds — but not particularly agile. It seems as though Scott Turner has condensed his run calls to emphasize concepts his linemen run well, such as “duo,” a gap-scheme run predicated on double-team blocks.

 

The running backs can succeed in this physical setup. Even though Washington creates yards before contact at one of the league’s lowest rates (1.23, 25th), Robinson and Antonio Gibson are decisive and physical. And even though they also haven’t excelled at yards after contact, they rarely take losses. Since Week 7, Washington has rushed for zero or negative yards on just 14 percent of its attempts, the second-best rate in the NFL. The Commanders stay on schedule and can consistently convert manageable third downs because of their strength inside and their athleticism attacking the edges with runs such as jet sweeps.

 

During this stretch, defenses have shown more respect the Commanders’ ground game, seeming to play fewer two-high schemes and loading up the box. Last Sunday, Atlanta used five down linemen consistently and Washington chugged along. Since Week 7, Washington has been nearly unstoppable in gotta-have-it moments; on third or fourth down with two or fewer yards to go, the offense has converted 18 of 22 rushing attempts.

 

But there is a problem. The best offenses create explosive plays — defined as passes of 16 or more yards and rushes of 12 or more yards — which are key to boosting the odds of scoring. Baltimore and Cleveland pop an explosive run 11 or 12 percent of the time. Since Week 7, just 4.5 percent of Washington’s rushes (29th in the NFL) have been explosive.

 

“It’s great to wear them down, get those four-, five-, six-yard runs, but we want to create explosives,” running back Jonathan Williams said Sunday. “We want to be able to score in the run game from anywhere on the field.”

Williams added that running backs coach Randy Jordan has stressed to his players that they need to be more explosive. In practice, Jordan stands about 30 yards downfield and the backs have to finish through him. Even though the likeliest candidate to deliver a long rush, Gibson, hasn’t created explosive runs during this stretch — just three in his past 69 carries — he’s consistently using his burst to turn checkdown passes into chunk plays.

Washington’s high-floor, low-ceiling rushing attack may ultimately prove unsustainable, particularly if it runs into an explosive, pass-first offense capable of scoring quickly. But for now, it’s been enough, and embracing the approach has given the runners, blockers and seemingly everyone else in the building something valuable: confidence.

[Jumbo]

This heinie situation continues creating more braindead football "analysis" of the qb play, and all the other team dynamics that affect the qb play---more than anything I've seen on this forum since the jason candle or colt brennan daze.

 

And if we're going to boil divided groups of posters such as they actually present in posting, rather than labeling them haters or hive-rs, I prefer critics and cheerleaders or fanboys. I read maybe 2-3 regs that could be called "haters" per normal use of the term and about 10-12 regs that read like "hive-rs."

 

The dumb analytics I read are almost always from the "uber" pro-heinie guys. And yes, most (not all) of them seem generally impermeable to solid football points being made by the more critical types.

 

Meanwhile the vast majority of those more critical types tend to acknowledge the actual positives of the heinie experience to date.

 

So I see the "football dumb" stuff to be more the province of the uber pro side, fwiw.

 

Btw, I can't work up any enthusiasm for Carson going back in despite my fatigue with heinie world and how there's no important answer there for our goals.

 

I'm ok with it if the brain trust thinks to there's something to still see with changes that have been made team-wise since his departure.

 

But if that happens I sure hope there's some easily recognized reasons why they think it needed another try. A reasonable argument is there as to why, but it needs to be based on something real they're actually sure of, not just "one last hope for the wentz deal" hail Mary.

 

In the meantime, as most of the more critical posters agree, ya can't pull heinie while there's a win streak, and it's perfectly fine to enjoy winning and being competitive no matter what teams we're beating or how, though such matters when debating long term issues.

 

And there's no good reason to "hate" th and no good reason to exaggerate him, often ridiculously so, and call your creation a reality that others "can't seem to get or don't want to."

 

That is dumb.

 

 

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, mhd24 said:

But he is making mistakes.  It is just that the defenses we've played are dropping his INTs.  We should have lost the Packers game (Refs had a bogus call that prevented a Packers defensive TD).  

 

He misses a wide open Logan Thomas and throws an INT against Minnesota (could have gone to Milne as well).

 

He throws a dropped INT against the Colts late in the first half in Indy territory.

 

He throws two dropped INTs against Houston.

 

He almost throws a pick 6 against the Falcons last week (11:00 in the 4th quarter).  Dangerous pass that a better defender picks off.  He's really late on this throw.

 

I don't disagree with any of this. Heinicke definitely seems to have a horseshoe or rabbit's foot hidden up his bum during games, considering all of the turnover worthy throws that didn't get picked.

 

I was trying to be reasonably fair to TH and didn't want to seem like I was piling on just for the hell of it. But yeah I tend to think that stuff will likely catch up to him eventually, though of course it would be great if it didn't.

 

39 minutes ago, MariusVT said:

Sure Heiny isn't putting up better numbers and he's had plenty of throws that he's gotten lucky on DB drops.  Sure maybe Wentz makes some of the throws he misses but how many plays does Heiny make because he doesn't take the sack that Wentz does.  Mobility and awareness go a long way.  Ride or Die with Heiny the rest of the year, cut ties with Wentz in the off season and go back to the drawing board for what QB looks like next year.  Maybe it's Howell but more likely the answer isn't on the team.

 

I think both things can be true. Heinicke has gotten super lucky on some dropped interceptions, and his ability to escape pressure helps the offense in general.

 

Don't necessarily agree with "ride or die with Heiny the rest of the year" though. If TH starts to stink up the joint then it could definitely make sense to either try Wentz again (who knows how he'd play with a much better rushing attack and a decent IOL) or give Howell a shot. The latter would only be the case if we were 100% eliminated from the paloffs.

[goskins10]

3 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I wouldn’t confuse ‘wanting Wentz back in’ with being enamored with Wentz or sold he will turn it around at all.  But Heinicke just isn’t playing very well and every other element of the team has been dragging him for weeks.  That’s not just the eye test speaking, the stats back it up - this is not a sustainable way of winning.  It’s highly likely unless they continue to defy all odds that the tides are going to turn.  Being this close to the playoffs with a top draft slot way out of our reach, I think it’s natural folks would like to see a QB with greater potential.

 

I agree TH is playing pretty bad to be winning. I do have a problem making a change during a winning streak but it would only take a single loss to pull him for me. Very short leash. But I get why people are considering a change. Hard to imagine 195 yds/gm, 60% comp and about a TO a game is going to keep being a recipe for success. Not to mention he has gotten very lucky with some wounded ducks falling safely to the ground that should have been picked. 

 

My issue with bringing Wentz back is that his issues were independent of the team around him. He was making the same mistakes that he made with the Colts and Philly. The def and line play has nothing to do with him missing wide open checkdowns which is a critical part of any offense. Also, he is a statue. So for a Oline that struggles to pass block already that makes it nearly impossible. In fairness the line is playing a bit better, I believe mostly due to consistency. There were 6 new lines in the first 6 games. That has settled downBut still, Wentz has litterally no mobilty and will not throw it out of bounds fast enough. On top of that, when he gets flustered he makes really bad decisions at the worst possible moment. I think he has good intentions but he just manages to hurt his team in the worst possible way. 

 

Those are not things that change with a better Def or better line play, or even a good running game for that matter. It just minimizes the opportunities for him to screw up. But that is no different in my mind than TH. And then there is the intangible that for some reason the team gets behind TH more than Carson. Will that last for ever? I doubt it. For example I hav to think Curtis Samual and Johan Dotson are getting a littletired of blocking all day long. Even Terry will get tired of having to make hero plays just to get opportunities soon. 

 

If they make a change, I would prefer it be Sam Howell. I know people keep talknig about him not being ready. That is directly proportional to team need. As long as they have the luxury - TH winning games - let him "not be ready". But if they decide that a change is needed in the bet interest of the team, trust me the coaches will declare him ready. 

 

Next two games will tell a lot. Divisional rival with the POs on the line.  TH will have to be at the top of his game. I hope we will be but my spidey sense tells me we are headed for an ugly crash. 

 

 

[wit33]

Wentz plays like the weight of the world is on his shoulders and has years of unprocessed QB trauma. Each snap a trauma inducing trigger may occur and disrupt flow and momentum for that drive. 

Heineke plays freely and appreciates the moment. Heineke is providing just enough consistency to possess the ball and allow the defense to lead. The last time Heinekes powers were called upon he put up 10 quick points against the Colts.
 

And… don’t act like each one of you didn’t think there was a solid chance Heineke was going to help secure a fg attempt to end the Viking game  

 

Side note: Run with the ball Heineke!!

 

[Koolblue13]

The way that our offense has been playing, it's hard not to think about how much a couple 40 yard hits to Terry would open that run game up even more and really make us an unstoppable team. We've got a fine regular season offense that will keep squeaking out close ones, but sooner or later a team is goin to just sell out to stop the run and put the entire game on the QB and it'll be over like it was last year.