The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randal 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariota and Fromm battle for QB2

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Rivera has to play this very smart.  If he goes back to Wentz after a loss or two and they miss the playoffs...yikes.

 

Agree.  I think the conservative play is ride and-or fall with Heinicke.  But its interesting to hear Bram and Keim who are around the team talking about taylor without being aglow, especially Bram who like I said is-was maybe the most Heinicke Hive type among the media. 

 

I am a little worried about this game for Taylor.  The Giants are good at turnover differential.  Dexter Lawrence and Leonard Williams might be the best duo DTs aside of ours -- so not sure about the parting of the seas duo run game working as well against them.   Their defensive coordinator likes bringing heat so if he sits in the pocket, as Bram mentioned they might get to him. 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[SkinsFTW]

45 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

So let's say they bench him after a loss to the Giants going into the bye.  Then Wentz starts...and they lose.  Then what?

 

That's about the time the Benny Hill music starts back up.

[Conn]

I think you could argue that if Heinicke plays poorly and we lose to the Giants, it makes perfect sense to spend the next two weeks preparing to play the Giants again with Wentz at the helm with a completely different gameplan. It’s rare you get an immediate second chance at an opponent like that and we’d have just seen evidence (in this hypothetical) that the Heinicke formula didn’t cut it the first time. 
 

It really depends how the game goes down in that scenario, what part Heinicke plays in it, etc. But in that situation, going into the bye week off a loss is a logical time to pivot back to Wentz and find out once and for all if he’s 100% out the door after the season—and this time he’d have the improved defense and running game that Heinicke has both benefited from and contributed to with his ability to keep the offense moving and on-schedule—it’s only fair to acknowledge that. And now Wentz has seen how that works in a complementary fashion with the defense. The guy isn’t gonna completely change his hero ball mindset, but he’s not an idiot and he’s spent a month and a half watching a much less talented player do what he could not for a variety of reasons—some of which are in his control if he gets another shot. 
 

Personally, I’d rather just beat the Giants this week and not have to find out. I hope this wave lasts into the playoffs and we don’t need to consider alternatives, even though the way we’re winning doesn’t feel sustainable. It would certainly be easier—things are rarely easy with this franchise. 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Conn

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Interesting take from Bram, because yes - he’s been Heinicke’s biggest fan in the local media from all I’ve heard.

 

It also aligns with what I’ve been saying.  Taylor was more exciting last year minus the final month.  Not that he ran a whole bunch or that his stat lines were amazing, but he was running it more and making more plays.  Last season we didn’t have Robinson and the ability to just churn out yards on the ground like we do now.  So his individual contributions take a hit due to that and I don’t think it’s a bad thing as the record suggests.  But his overall play has been mediocre, sprinkled with a healthy dose of good luck.  

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Interesting take from Bram, because yes - he’s been Heinicke’s biggest fan in the local media from all I’ve heard.

 

It also aligns with what I’ve been saying.  Taylor was more exciting last year minus the final month.  Not that he ran a whole bunch or that his stat lines were amazing, but he was running it more and making more plays.  Last season we didn’t have Robinson and the ability to just churn out yards on the ground like we do now.  So his individual contributions take a hit due to that and I don’t think it’s a bad thing as the record suggests.  But his overall play has been mediocre, sprinkled with a healthy dose of good luck.  

 

But would Jonathan Allen be playing as well without Heinicke's vibe?  ditto Forrest's emergence?  On and on.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[DJHJR86]

I wonder if he's playing it safe because he's either banged up or terrified of this train ride ending because of an injury.

[Skinsinparadise]

this might be a bit harsh below but I do think Robinson's emergence and getting some of the TE's healthy, have been helpimg. 

 

 

 

[redskinss]

2 hours ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

I am old enough to remember 2011 when teammates were absolutely besides themselves because Shanahan benched Grossman after a 3-2 start and players were quoted as saying you don't bench a quarterback with a winning record.  Gonna be a hard sell to bench the guy who's 5-2 to the locker room.

Cowboys did it with a 4-1 cooper rush despite Prescott having looked horrible to start the year.

Now they're in a much better position for it. 

I'm not saying wentz is the answer but he hasn't gotten a fair shot at learning this offense and settling in.

I honestly don't know what the smart thing to do here is but despite all wentz's shortcomings of late I'd still feel more confident in him in a playoff game than heinicke. 

[skinny21]

Not to deflect blame from Taylor (I can’t blame a guy for having a weak arm, but I do blame him for decision-making, some poor throws, and sometimes trusting his arm too much):

He showed last year he has the ability to go through his reads.  Of course, that (at least in part) also lead to him holding the ball too long.  Felt like he put a lot of trust in his oline to give him time.

This year, he was on the sideline watching Wentz get pummeled.

He’s getting the ball out quickly this year.  He’s frequently hitting (or trying to hit) his first read.  This could be purely a product of Turner’s play calling, and it could be that he’s coached to do so given our weapons.  But, it could also have to do with the oline - whether Taylor’s not as confident in them given how they protected Wentz (I realize the group has changed), or whether they’ve shown on tape/in games that they aren’t/won’t buy him the time he needs.   

[DJHJR86]

13 minutes ago, redskinss said:

Cowboys did it with a 4-1 cooper rush despite Prescott having looked horrible to start the year.

 

Prescott looked horrible in 3/4 of 1 game, not 3/4 of 6 games.  We had a good rushing offense during this game.  This is what you would be going back to.  Sitting on the bench for 6 weeks doesn't change career trends of taking unnecessary sacks and missing wide open check downs.

 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by DJHJR86

[Conn]

And there was never going to be an actual QB controversy there, that was just a minority of loud dumb media types and loud dumb fans. Dak is their established franchise QB with the franchise QB contract and there’s a large sample size of him playing well for them as a top-12 QB or better. Rush wasn’t even playing particularly well, he was doing enough to let the rest of the roster ball. Similar to Heinicke. We just don’t have a Dak. 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Conn

[redskinss]

8 minutes ago, Conn said:

And there was never going to be an actual QB controversy there, that was just a minority of loud dumb media types and loud dumb fans. Dak is their established franchise QB with the franchise QB contract and there’s a large sample size of him playing well for them as a top-12 QB or better. Rush wasn’t even playing particularly well, he was doing enough to let the rest of the roster ball. Similar to Heinicke. We just don’t have a Dak. 

I agree, I'm just making the point that you don't stick with lousy quarterback play because you're winning, that's the argument that keeps coming up with Heineke and why we have to stay with him.

The real debate isn't about Heineke or his winning ways its about whether or not we have anything better on the roster.

I honestly have no idea.

[London Kev]

55 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

I wonder if he's playing it safe because he's either banged up or terrified of this train ride ending because of an injury.

 

This is my take as well. IMO Heinicke knows that if he gets a season ending injury then his NFL career is more than likely done.

 

He's earning some nice bonuses with this winning streak ($125,000 per win?) and good luck to him. I think that he's trying to lower the risk of getting banged up by limiting his scrambling, either consciously or sub-consciously.

 

I obviously have no inside knowledge, but it does seem to fit the facts.

[redskinss]

8 minutes ago, London Kev said:

 

This is my take as well. IMO Heinicke knows that if he gets a season ending injury then his NFL career is more than likely done.

 

He's earning some nice bonuses with this winning streak ($125,000 per win?) and good luck to him. I think that he's trying to lower the risk of getting banged up by limiting his scrambling, either consciously or sub-consciously.

 

I obviously have no inside knowledge, but it does seem to fit the facts.

If you're correct and it's obviously a big if, then that would be another gargantuan reason to bench him.

That'd be like that scene from Rudy where the coach says, you let up just one bit and I'll throw you off this team so fast you won't know what hit you.

Can't have a guy who's only claim to the starting spot is moxie not giving 100 percent because of his career.

[London Kev]

13 minutes ago, redskinss said:

If you're correct and it's obviously a big if, then that would be another gargantuan reason to bench him.

That'd be like that scene from Rudy where the coach says, you let up just one bit and I'll throw you off this team so fast you won't know what hit you.

Can't have a guy who's only claim to the starting spot is moxie not giving 100 percent because of his career.

 

Even if it was shown to be true I still wouldn't bench him. The team is winning seemingly against the odds, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

[Renegade7]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The dude, I forget his name, Wellingham or something like that, who is on for Sheehan today, and was around the team during camp, talking right now on the radio saying that he believes Heinicke is a loss away from being benched.

 

Personally, I don't know.  if its a loss, I think it depends on how he plays in that loss.  My gut is he survives a loss but not two.

 

 

Lose at New York with bye week right after seems like prime candidate they are speaking to. 

 

Even if we win, this may be last chance to get Wentz ready if they really itching to do that.

 

Again, another sign this debate isn't nearly as over for the coaching staff as it is on this message board.

[tomwvr]

1 hour ago, redskinss said:

I agree, I'm just making the point that you don't stick with lousy quarterback play because you're winning, that's the argument that keeps coming up with Heineke and why we have to stay with him.

The real debate isn't about Heineke or his winning ways its about whether or not we have anything better on the roster.

I honestly have no idea.

The problem is wentz has shown he is not much of an improvement. And if putting him in destroys the chemistry  it would be bad for the team

Edited November 30, 2022 by tomwvr

[redskinss]

Just now, tomwvr said:

The problem is wentz has shown he is not much of an improvement. And if putting him in destroys the chemistry  

Both valid arguments. 

I personally do not believe we got enough of a sample size to prove wentz can't succeed, he got 6 games when the system was brand new to him with a defense playing atrocious and an offensive line in disarray.

Several of the offensive lineman are back, Robinson is back, the defense is playing outstanding. 

Wentz didn't get the chance to play while the team around him was playing this good and you have to ask yourself is the improvement because of Heinickes moxie or coaching.

I think it's a leap to think it's all due to Heinicke when we've had some pretty awful stretches of football with him as the starter.

Last year we started and finished the year awful with him starting most of those games and there was a different set of excuses for those games.

I too think we should stay with heinicke but on a very short leash.

Starting wentz is as big of a gamble as sitting Heineke but if he has another sub 150 yard game and an ugly pick or two and we lose a low scoring affair I say it's worth the risk.

 

[Peregrine]

59 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Lose at New York with bye week right after seems like prime candidate they are speaking to. 

 

Even if we win, this may be last chance to get Wentz ready if they really itching to do that.

 

Again, another sign this debate isn't nearly as over for the coaching staff as it is on this message board.

Not sure some rando invited to spout off on a radio show knows anything more than some rando on a message board.

 

Can you imagine grinding, putting the work in week in and week out, putting your body on the line, getting your shot because everyone else sucks, then winning game after game, and being told if you dont win 7 straight and instead go 6-1 we are benching you for the guy who we wouldnt bench if he lost 7-8 games?  How clutch would you have to be constantly to survive that?

 

I mean thats a great way to lose the locker room, and playoff football is all about the locker room. 

 

 

[redskinss]

6 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

Not sure some rando invited to spout off on a radio show knows anything more than some rando on a message board.

 

Can you imagine grinding, putting the work in week in and week out, putting your body on the line, getting your shot because everyone else sucks, then winning game after game, and being told if you dont win 7 straight and instead go 6-1 we are benching you for the guy who we wouldnt bench if he lost 7-8 games?  How clutch would you have to be constantly to survive that?

 

I mean thats a great way to lose the locker room, and playoff football is all about the locker room. 

 

 

It's definitely a conundrum but how many losses in a row do you have to have when your numbers are abhorrent and the rest of the team is playing lights out before you lose the locker room?

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

18 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

Not sure some rando invited to spout off on a radio show knows anything more than some rando on a message board.

 

Can you imagine grinding, putting the work in week in and week out, putting your body on the line, getting your shot because everyone else sucks, then winning game after game, and being told if you dont win 7 straight and instead go 6-1 we are benching you for the guy who we wouldnt bench if he lost 7-8 games?  How clutch would you have to be constantly to survive that?

 

I mean thats a great way to lose the locker room, and playoff football is all about the locker room. 

 

 

This is working under the guise that Heinicke believes he’s responsible for the winning streak.  I think he’s more aware of his contributions than some of you guys. 

He’s a team guy for sure, you can see it in the way he celebrates on the field and off it.  I’m certain he’s well aware of his role by the way the game plans get installed and the plays that get called on gameday.  His role is to not eff things up and ride the wave and he’s happy with that, and good for him.  But once those razor thin wins turn to losses, the microscope on the QB gets zoomed in.  That’s the way it’s always been and I’m sure there’s nobody more aware of that than him.

[NoCalMike]

Heinicke shouldn't be concerned with his long term viability as a QB though.  He is a QB2 caliber player period.  He has been fortunate that circumstances at the QB position on this team have landed him some extra opportunities, but to think he is holding back because he is in someway eyeing towards his future leverage as a player is laughable.  He isn't going to be the starter for this team or any team beyond this season unless this front office screws up again in search of a QB (in addition to the coaches thinking Howell still isn't ready to start in 2023). 

 

He should be going out there and using everything in his bag of tricks to win games now.  I am not suggesting playing with wreckless abandon because that would actually hurt more than it helps, but I am talking on a 3rd and 1, if he can scramble for the yard much easier than attempt a shorter percentage throw into traffic, he damn well needs to use his legs to get that 1st down.

 

As far as Heinicke vs Wentz for the remainder of the season.  Everyone should circle the 49ers game on the schedule because that game in my opinion is the game where I think a lot of Heinicke's strengths are going to be neutralized and if the 49ers stop our run game, or at least minimize it the way they do with most teams, we are going to see the first game of Heinicke's 2022 tenure (assuming the 2 NYG games go about how the last 6 games have) where he is forced to try and be a legitimate NFL starting caliber QB in order to win the game.  I am not suggesting we have to score a ton, because it could very well be a 13-10, 17-13 type game, but can Heinicke make plays with his arm against that defense when he doesn't have the luxury of handing the ball off 30 times.  I also am really hoping we get more O-line help by the time that game rolls around too.  Wes is back today, hopefully with the bye week he will be full strength.

[redskinss]

8 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

Heinicke shouldn't be concerned with his long term viability as a QB though.  He is a QB2 caliber player period.  He has been fortunate that circumstances at the QB position on this team have landed him some extra opportunities

I think he was more or less just saying that if heinicke goes into this off season healthy he'll probably get a contract offer as a backup either here or somewhere else but if he suffers a devastating injury that requires a chase young level of rehab it would almost certainly be the end of his career.

I don't believe anyone thinks he should go into a season as the unquestionable starter including himself.

 

[Renegade7]

56 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

Not sure some rando invited to spout off on a radio show knows anything more than some rando on a message board.

 

Can you imagine grinding, putting the work in week in and week out, putting your body on the line, getting your shot because everyone else sucks, then winning game after game, and being told if you dont win 7 straight and instead go 6-1 we are benching you for the guy who we wouldnt bench if he lost 7-8 games?  How clutch would you have to be constantly to survive that?

 

I mean thats a great way to lose the locker room, and playoff football is all about the locker room. 

 

Wentz is benched right now, so I don't get your logic here.  And rando caller isn't saying anything that doesn't make sense.

 

Tape don't lie, Dotson and Samuels didn't have a catch against Atlanta, numbers and targets dropping. How do you think they feel?

 

It's wishful thinking to believe the locker room isn't split on this issue. 

[NoCalMike]

9 minutes ago, redskinss said:

I think he was more or less just saying that if heinicke goes into this off season healthy he'll probably get a contract offer as a backup either here or somewhere else but if he suffers a devastating injury that requires a chase young level of rehab it would almost certainly be the end of his career.

I don't believe anyone thinks he should go into a season as the unquestionable starter including himself.

 

 

Yeah I understand that, but when you are out there playing the game, there is a difference between being smart about what you do versus not doing things out of fear of being injured.  No one would ask Heinicke to take off scrambling and cut back into the field of play to take on a safety, that is ridiculous, but I am more talking about the example I used.  Mobilty is one of his strengths and a big reason I am always hearing from the Hive about why he is the right guy for the job right now.  Okay, well then.....use your legs when the opportunities are there.