The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

23 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Matt Ryan is better than Carson Wentz. That's not really up for debate.

 

 

I think it is. A few years ago, sure, it was Ryan. But last season and this upcoming one? I do not think it is as clear cut as Ryan > Wentz.

 

I'm curious if Ryan's gradual decline due to age continues in Indianapolis.

[Zim489]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

A.  Tried to trade for Stafford

Wasnt coming here. Stafford wasnt going from one trash bin to another. 

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

B.  Tried to trade for Justin Fields (according to Keim)

Not hard enough. He said multiple times he didnt want to give up the capital. Will prove to be his downfall if he doesnt get a great QB. Not saying Fields will be but it was his best chance.  To me proves that he doesnt value QB enough, hold the team or himself in the proper standing, or doesnt understand the position in general enough.

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

C.  Tried to trade for Russell Wilson

See A

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

D.  Would have taken Mac Jones if he fell to their pick (according to Keim if I recall)

The biggest Mid option you could find. Wouldnt be in much different spot than Wentz. At least with Wentz we have seen him at MVP level with the physical talent to possibly get back to that. Mac Jones will never be great.

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

E. Traded for Carson Wentz

Way overspent because of desperation because of the previous years folly with Fields. Gouged from a franchise desperate to get rid of him.

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

F.  Drafted Sam Howell

2 top 10 QBs drafted outside of the first round in the last 10 years. 1 in the last 9. Its beyond long odds that he even ends up as adequate. Which in todays NFL isnt good enough to succeed in the playoffs. 

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

G.  Was basically screaming off the roof tops that you need a QB to win during this off season.

Glad it took him 3 years to figure that out. Only 3 years too late to figure out it takes massive planning on a multi year scale. Something agents have touched on being a weakness in this Front office just this past week in the standig article. That they often lack foresight and focus on the present.

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Like Ron or not like Ron, its clear as heck that he is willing to make moves to find that QB. 

He missed his mark and opportunity. He lacked the forsight to see that the 2022 class was likely to be trash. I honestly bet the plan was appeal to the top guys with a strong season from Fitz. Problem there was exactly what happened. You have TH looking bad and exposing the talent on the team. There was no contingency plan what so ever. 

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am trying to think of a coach who would?

Exactly why a coach shouldnt be in charge of an organization. A HC tries to win every single game possible. I get it. But sometimes you have to take a step back and to assess the big picture. HCs rarely have the ability to do so. The drive to win the next game is too large. You see it league wide by HC lead organizations. It is the single largest problem the franchise has had the last 20 years. The inability to take a step back to take 2 steps forward. They have been the same spot for 2 decades. They never build to anything. 

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Also you need to have the owner on board for that and its been said to death Dan has no patience for a rebuild.

Ron had all the leash in the world. He got the job because he said the roster was good and compete. 3 years later and were in the same exact spot. Same spot they were for 4 out of the previous 5 years. They only time we are actually forced into a "rebuild" (rebuild in quotes because the next guy comes in and says we dont need one we have the talent to compete) is because of the previous regimes "win now" moves finally coming to head over a multi year process. 

 

Only a matter of time until the same thing happens here. Sooner the better and hopefully before desperation by Ron hits but thats a short 4 months away. The only way out of the purgatory regardless of owner, hc, GM, so on so forth is finding that elite QB. Best way to do that is the top of the draft. 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Zim489

[zCommander]

19 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Has anyone seen @zCommanderand this article writer in the same room together?

 

I THINK NOT!

 

With zoom you don't have to be in the same room. Just sayin'. ..lol

But seriously, the yahoo.com writer is saying what people are thinking of Wentz right now but not what he actually is. Hence the word perceived. 

[Skinsinparadise]

54 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Matt Ryan is better than Carson Wentz. That's not really up for debate. But he's also older and more expensive, and at the end of the day, he wasn't gonna come here(had a no trade clause). 

 

Its perfectly reasonable for both teams to have upgraded the QB positions and be happy.

 

Agree.

 

Though I don't think he's more expensive for the Colts.  But I don't think Ryan would have been an option here.  And there is at least a chance that his play declines as he ages.

 

I do think it doesn't have to be a zero sum game.

 

A,  The Colts might be better off with Ryan.  I'd bet that's true albeit their narrative IMO is really over the top about his play.  

 

B. The Commanders are likely better off with Wentz.

 

 

 

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/matt-ryan-contract-details-colts-falcons-dead-cap/euc1gdrxurthgcgjc2zevek8

 

So, Ryan is now set to make nearly $54 million guaranteed over two years. That's a solid agreement for him, even without signing an extension.

Below is a year-by-year breakdown of Ryan's contract, per OverTheCap.com.

Year	Base salary	Roster bonus	Cap hit
2022	$17.2 million	$7.5 million	$24.7 million
2023	$21.7 million	$7.5 million	$29.2 million
Total	$38.9 million	$15 million	$53.9 million

The Colts may convert Ryan's roster bonus to a signing bonus to fully guarantee it, but either way, he is going to be getting $53.9 million guaranteed over two years. Meanwhile, Indianapolis should have a two-year starter for the first time since Andrew Luck's retirement and will be getting Ryan at a solid market value of less than $30 million per year.

While the acquisition of Ryan and his new contract look favorable for the Colts, the Falcons will have a bit more trouble trying to move on from their long-time starting quarterback. At least in 2022.

MORE: Why Matt Ryan could have Philip Rivers-type impact for Colts in 2022

Matt Ryan dead-cap hit with Falcons

Matt Ryan is leaving behind not only a gaping hole at Atlanta's quarterback position, but he is also set to leave behind a historic dead-cap hit.

Dead cap space is salary cap space that is taken up by a player no longer on a team. This usually stems from guaranteed money paid to a player who has been released or traded, as is the case with Ryan.

Ryan's dead-cap hit with the Falcons is set to be a whopping $40.5 million, per OverTheCap.com. So, the Falcons will effectively be budgeting $40.5 million — or 19.5 percent of their cap space — to Ryan, who isn't even on Atlanta's roster.

[mistertim]

19 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

Way overspent because of desperation because of the previous years folly with Fields. Gouged from a franchise desperate to get rid of him.

 

 

I still find it interesting how two 3rd round picks and the 12th most expensive annual QB contract (which we can also get out of after a year with no dead cap) is considered by some to be this crazy spending spree.

[Zim489]

18 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I still find it interesting how two 3rd round picks and the 12th most expensive annual QB contract (which we can also get out of after a year with no dead cap) is considered by some to be this crazy spending spree.

When he was getting cut 

[MisterPinstripe]

32 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

When he was getting cut 

He was never getting cut lol

[MrJL]

35 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

When he was getting cut 

 

2 minutes ago, MisterPinstripe said:

He was never getting cut lol

 

seriously, the Texans or Panthers or Seahawks would have been interested in him.  Hell, maybe the Colts and Falcons would have straight up swapped QBs

[mistertim]

37 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

When he was getting cut 

 

Yeah there's no way the Colts were going to straight up cut Wentz unless they went for a long time with zero offers. Someone would have grabbed him. Could they maybe have gotten him for less than two 3rd round picks? Possibly. But if he's the guy you want, why play games and try to get cute instead of just giving up what is a relatively reasonable amount for an established starting QB who has shown elite potential in the past?

 

To me that's like really wanting a guy in the draft and deciding to try and get cute and trade back in the hopes that he'll still fall to you. If he's the guy you want, pick him. Getting that extra 3rd round pick isn't going to make up for missing the guy you want.

[Warhead36]

I'm not sure what exactly Zim's gripe is. What exactly are you proposing Rivera should have done? He exhausted just about every avenue possible. Do you think he should have offered three #1s to move up for Justin freaking Fields? There are limits to everything and Fields looks pretty bad so far.

 

As one of my old work mentors would say: "Don't come to me with problems, come to me with solutions."

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Zim489 said:

Wasnt coming here. Stafford wasnt going from one trash bin to another. 

 

 

I know.  So why blame Ron?

 

2 hours ago, Zim489 said:

 

 

Not hard enough. He said multiple times he didnt want to give up the capital. Will prove to be his downfall if he doesnt get a great QB. Not saying Fields will be but it was his best chance.  To me proves that he doesnt value QB enough, hold the team or himself in the proper standing, or doesnt understand the position in general enough.

 

 

I think after @KDawg I was the highest on Fields on the draft thread.   I posted a ton on him.  You won't find too many higher on him than me.  Yet, the impression I get that to trade up in the top 10 to get him, teams were asking for really intense capital, like borderline RG3 capital.  So for me to be down on this, Fields needs to become a stud.   Not saying it won't happen.  Will see.  But for me it has to happen before crying over the idea that there is no price too high for Fields.

 

2 hours ago, Zim489 said:

 

Glad it took him 3 years to figure that out. Only 3 years too late to figure out it takes massive planning on a multi year scale. Something agents have touched on being a weakness in this Front office just this past week in the standig article. That they often lack foresight and focus on the present.

 

 

Too bad he made that offer for Stafford apparently this year.  Rivera is a fool for thinking the Rams would trade him after the SB win.  He should have traded for him when the Lions put him for sale in year 2.  Ditto shooting for Fields when the Bears already drafted him versus in that actual draft.  Rivera made no indication in year 2 that QB was a concern.

 

As for year 1, as Dan proved with RG3 he's a push over when he has a pet QB.  He took Shanny's side over RG3 at every turn and ultimately released RG3 to keep Shanny.  So Rivera should have had an easy time likewise to convince Dan to discard Haskins right from the jump.

 

2 hours ago, Zim489 said:

 

He missed his mark and opportunity. He lacked the forsight to see that the 2022 class was likely to be trash.

 

People thought the 2017 draft was trash for QB too.  Perception and reality isn't always the same.  The national draft media get plenty wrong about QB. 

 

Howell didn't exactly stink up the preseason.  Neither did Willis and Pickett.  Maybe the national draft media might be wrong again?

 

2 hours ago, Zim489 said:

 

Exactly why a coach shouldnt be in charge of an organization. A HC tries to win every single game possible. I get it. But sometimes you have to take a step back and to assess the big picture. HCs rarely have the ability to do so. The drive to win the next game is too large. You see it league wide by HC lead organizations. It is the single largest problem the franchise has had the last 20 years. The inability to take a step back to take 2 steps forward. They have been the same spot for 2 decades. They never build to anything. 

 

 

I actually agree with this point.  The difference is I put 100% of this on Dan not Ron.  To tear it down and lose, you need the owner to sanction it.  And as for the zillion stories about Dan, he wants nothing to do with this approach.

 

2 hours ago, Zim489 said:

 

Only a matter of time until the same thing happens here. Sooner the better and hopefully before desperation by Ron hits but thats a short 4 months away. The only way out of the purgatory regardless of owner, hc, GM, so on so forth is finding that elite QB. Best way to do that is the top of the draft. 

 

Top of the draft in the right year.  This might be the right year for a QB.  Will see. 

 

But I don't get why you are writing off Howell already?  Just because the national draft media didn't embrace this draft class so he can't be that good?  The national draft media get a ton wrong.  A ton.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[mistertim]

27 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I'm not sure what exactly Zim's gripe is. What exactly are you proposing Rivera should have done? He exhausted just about every avenue possible. Do you think he should have offered three #1s to move up for Justin freaking Fields? There are limits to everything and Fields looks pretty bad so far.

 

As one of my old work mentors would say: "Don't come to me with problems, come to me with solutions."

 

If memory serves, I've actually asked Zim what exactly his proposition was for getting a QB, after he ****ed about the current QB direction. I don't think I got much of an answer. Seems like ****ing just for the sake of ****ing.

Edited September 6, 2022 by mistertim

[bowhunter]

4 hours ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

 

 

 

I would be absolutely shocked if they benched Wentz at any point during the season.  

There also is another incentive to be mindful of. If Wentz really sucks eggs over the 1st half of the season, then they'd have to admit that the experiment failed and should bench him for Howell.  It seems that many on here have forgotten that the Wentz trade is for a SECOND round 2023 pick (many say a 3rd, so I guess they're thinking that Wentz doesn't start lol.) The Wentz trade has pick escalator if Carson plays over 70% of the snaps.

 

Now, I personally don't think that Carson is going to stink up the joint, I see him as a solid upgrade to our roster. Which means that we need to consider his trade cost to include a 2023 2nd round pick. And with that much cost, it certainly weakens our position should we decide that we need to move up (which I hope we won't.) But if he looks bad, bench him sooner rather than later. Lets see what SH has while also holding on to our 2nd round pick.

[SkinsFTW]

42 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Seems like ****ing just for the sake of ****ing.

 

Isn't that why we're here? 

[mistertim]

2 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

Isn't that why we're here? 

 

[Conn]

5 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

Anyone who says Wentz is a downgrade from Heinicke is smoking crack and should be immediately drug tested while being escorted out whatever building they are in when they say it.

 

I've seen spite and folks trying to be edgy in regards to reviews on our team, but that's more like a cry for help...

whose turn was it to watch zCommander, my shift was yesterday. Anybody have eyes on? 

[NickyJ]

Perhaps zCommander is married to Heinicke's sister and this part of a desperate plan to keep Taylor from crashing on the couch again?

[zCommander]

2 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

Perhaps zCommander is married to Heinicke's sister and this part of a desperate plan to keep Taylor from crashing on the couch again?

 

Is his sister hot? 

[Cooleyfan1993]

17 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Is his sister hot? 

You’re the one that’s perhaps married to her, you tell us  

[Zim489]

2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

I'm not sure what exactly Zim's gripe is. What exactly are you proposing Rivera should have done? He exhausted just about every avenue possible. Do you think he should have offered three #1s to move up for Justin freaking Fields? There are limits to everything and Fields looks pretty bad so far.

 

As one of my old work mentors would say: "Don't come to me with problems, come to me with solutions."

My gripe is essentially there seems to be content with a completely mediocre for the foreseeable future with out acknowledging that were headed by mediocre coach and personally IMO among the worst FOs in the entire league from a football standpoint.

[Conn]

28 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Is his sister hot? 

who cares, like her brother she’s got:

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

I'm not sure what exactly Zim's gripe is. What exactly are you proposing Rivera should have done? He exhausted just about every avenue possible. Do you think he should have offered three #1s to move up for Justin freaking Fields? There are limits to everything and Fields looks pretty bad so far.

 

As one of my old work mentors would say: "Don't come to me with problems, come to me with solutions."

Oh oh oh oh, I know this one!  He laid out his plan at some point, I think in the "New Start" thread, and he's supremely bitter Ron didn't do things his way, which in his mind, is the only way.  From what I can recall:

 

1. Cut Alex Smith and take the entire cap hit in 2020, because the team wasn't going anywhere.

2. Trade Payne immediately

3. Cut/Trade basically the rest of the team.

4. Trade up for Fields because that was the only chance at a franchise QB.

5. He knows because of his crystal ball which drafts are going to have good QBs at least 3-4 years before literally anybody else in the world.  He's even suggested working towards the #1 pick in the 2026 draft to get Arch manning.  So, he's doubly critical they didn't get a QB in the 2021 draft because he already knew during the 2021 draft the 2022 draft was going to be lighter on QB prospects.  (Which not even the draft gurus, Kiper, McShay and the Allmighty dumbass Thor were predicting.  And when THAT is brought up, he hand waves that and says something like "QBs are always rated higher because of position. I KNEW IT WAS GOING TO BE A WEAK CLASS BEFORE ANYBODY DAMMIT."

 

He also claims Ron doesn't value the QB position.  And it all hinges on the fact they didn't make a Godfather trade for Fields. (I'm starting to think he's related to Fields.) When it's pointed out what Ron has tried to do to get a QB, he shoots all of them down because they weren't coming here, so even if it's clear Ron is trying, he's trying with the wrong people.  

 

The QB thing really comes down to Fields. Which he's convinced himself was basically the only option to get a franchise QB in the next 3 years.  And he keeps doubling down on it even after Fields didn't even remotely flash the way Burrow or Herbert did in their rookie seasons. He might even suck.  (I don't think he does, yet.  But if you're betting, the safer bet is towards bust right now rather than exceptional, top 5 QB which is what @Zim489 believes he is.  

 

What he has failed to realize is:

1. the tank job was already complete, they went 3-13 in 2019, and possessed the 2nd overall pick in the draft. And the 2nd pick in every other round.  

2. Cutting Smith and taking the entire cap hit would have both been stupid and also pointless.  The one thing Bruce did leave them with which was positive was a good cap situation.  Virtually no talent and a crap culture, but they did have cap room.  So, yay!?

3. Trading a 1st round player entering his third year when he's actually good is beyond dumb.  You never get the value in return as the value you have by having the player on the team. Getting a 3rd or 4th for Payne in 2020 is not as valuable as actually having him on the team for the next 3 years. Because you take the lesser value you get back in the trade and then have to figure out how to get a player to fill the void you just created with less valuable assets than you gave up.  This point has eluded him from day one.  I don't see how it's that hard to grasp, but he is so far up the "trade everybody" tree, he can't see logic or reason.   It feels like he's quoting one of those idiotic PFF pieces about trade value.  

4. Fields might turn out to be good, we will see.  But trading up to 8 to get him would have cost multiple 1st round picks, and Fields wasn't a good enough prospect to warrant that price. 

5. His draft predicting crystal ball theory is as ludicrous as our 2 friend's obsession with Taylor Hienicke.  

 

Basically, he just talks himself in circles, doesn't realize it, says "analytics", "Playmakers" and "It's all about the QB" a lot, doesn't really know how you acquire and develop those positions, doesn't really realize it could be happening under his nose, and ****es and moans because they didn't trade Payne for a 3rd in 2020 and trade 2 firsts, maybe 3, and something else to get Fields and then watch him have to prove he was worth the cost.  

 

That's my summary.  There are some valid points buried in there, but the ridiculous stuff clouds all of it and makes it come off as silly as one of our friend who liked to site TH's completion percentage is better than Wentz's or the other friend who keeps repeating that TH beat Brady, Wilson, Carr and Ryan as if that means anything at all.  We've reached that level of craziness.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Has there been a sadder franchise than this one at QB?  I used to think the Lions and Browns but i think we are tops. 

Good question for a mid-day thought experiment.  I think we probably the saddest. But let's see.  I'm going to go back only as far as the mid 60's when Sonny started playing for us.  Going back farther, I really don't know the players.  I am pretty good with knowing who's who in the late 60's and 70's.  Before that, I don't recognize the names.  

****UPDATE: I had to do work, so my mid-afternoon thought experiment resulted in a late night finish and only the NFC.  I'm going to go look at the AFC tomorrow.  Because I'm a sucker for punishment.  

 

NFC East:

Dallas: Staubach, White, Aikman, Romo and now Dak.  

Giants: Sims and Eli Manning.  They did go through the Danny Kanell/Kent Graham/Kerry Collins period, but I don't cry for them

Eagles: Jaws, Cunningham, McNabb, Vick, Wentz.  I don't cry for them.

Washington Red Commander Team: Sonny, Joe Theisman, Kirk Cousins for 3 years, Griffin for 1. A WHOLE LOT of swings and misses.  

 

NFC South:

Tampa: Doug Williams, Vinny Tetaverde, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Winston and Brady ** They don't have a great track record either.

Saints: Archie Manning, Bobby Herbert, Drew Brees.  I will say, between Archie and Brees, there was about 20 years of real "Meh" QBs But they have Archie and Brees.  

Panthers: Brunnell, Cam

Falcons: Steve Bartkowski, Chris Chandler, Vick, Matt Ryan.

 

NFC West:

49ers: Joe Montana, Steve Young, Garcia, Smith, Keepernick.

Seahawks: Jim Zorn, Dave Krieg, Matt Hasselbeck, Russell Wilson. 

Cardinals: God, they're all over the place, but they have had some good ones, just not for very long.  Jim Hart in the 70's, then Jake Plummer for a bit, then Warner, Carson Palmer, and now Kyler Murray.  

Rams: Jim Everett in the 80's, Kurt Warner, Marc Bulger (god, I didn't realize Bulger started for them for 8 seasons). Lately Goff and then Stafford.

 

NFC North:

Bears: Jim McMahon, Jay Cutler.  ***** This might rival us.  McMahon was their Theisman.  They don't have a Sonny.  

Vikings: Tarkenton (For close to 20 bloody years from 1961 - 1978). The 80's and 90's weren't really kind to them until Cunningham had 1 year, then they had Culpepper for a while, 2 years of Favre, and then recently Kurt.  

Lions: ********* This might also rival us.  Rodney Peete?  Scott Mitchell?  Charlie Batch?  Basically nobody until Stafford got there in 2010. Stafford is clearly more recent, but they had some very average to bad QBs for basically the rest of their history.  

Packers: Bart Starr was before my list started, but he was the QB from '57 - '70.  From there they had a run with Lynn Dickey in the 80's, but a lot of "meh" for about 20 years.  And then Favre and Rodgers for the last 30 years.  30 ****ing years.  

 

So in the NFC, the two contenders for "as sad as us" would be the Bears and Lions.  The Bears have swung and missed on a lot of QBs. The Lions didn't have anybody as good as Sonny, and Stafford is good, but I think he's kindof at a Thiesman level.  I think I could cobble together Redskin comps for Rodney Peete, Scott Mitchell and Charlie Batch. (Brad Johnson, Kirk Cousins and some combination of Griffin for 2012, Doug Williams and Mark Rypien would be better, I think.  

 

I will say, as I looked through all the teams, I was struck by how many wandered the wilderness of bad QB play for decades at a time. Even the Packers had a 20 year stretch with really sketchy QB play.  After Young, the 49ers had Garcia, and then hits here and there, but nothing really consistent.  I'd argue the Seahawks were just "ok" before Hasselbeck, with all due respect to Jim Zorn and Dave Krieg.  

 

Our history is BAD.  But I take some solace that other teams have had 10 and 20 year stretches that are similar.  I didn't actually expect that.  

 

 

 

[NickyJ]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Panthers: Brunnell, Cam

Just a nitpicked, but Brunell was with the Jaguars. Panthers had Jake Delhomme.

[TheShredder]

Wentz lost his mojo. Confidence Issues. Must win Week 1.