The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Renegade7]

 

[Thinking Skins]

So I'm finally looking into some of what went down in Philly with Wentz and I think that trading him to Indy was the WORSE thing that could have happened to Wentz.

 

Here's my thought process. 

 

1. Wentz is drafted 2 overall and is progressing as a QB and really looking good as a QB. 

2. The 2017 Season hits and Wentz is on Fire looking like a league MVP. 

3. Then Wentz gets hurt and a backup QB wins the SB. 

4. The locker room is divided because while they love Wentz as a QB, they also love Foles for bringing them a championship

5. Wentz is (1) dismissive of Foles's importance, and makes improper comments dismissing him, or the importance of the win. 

6. Foles is traded

7. Wentz is hurt in 2018 and goes to the playoffs again in 2019, but is hurt (and doesn't want to, or can't, go back in the game)

8. The Eagles draft Hurts in 2020. 

9. Eagles have massive OL injuries and Wentz plays 2020 behind a bunch of no names and puts up his worse season in many statistical categories and is benched

10. Eagles fire Doug and trade Wentz. 

 

Remembering back in 2017, a lot of the lure around Wentz was similar to how Allen is seen right now. Similar body styles, similar accuracy issues but similar abilities to take a hit, or take off and run. But the whole being hurt and having the backup come in and win it all shook him. So he goes to the team with the OC who was there with you then? Yeah it looks nice on paper, but he's still part of that situation. How did Reich feel about Foles and how Foles played, or Wentz's comments about Foles? 

 

I'm trying to think of situations where a backup came in and won it all and the starter came back to be the starter. I know Young took the job from Montana. Hosteller won it all backing up Sims, then got a starting job in Oakland/LA, but Sims had already won a ring. Of course there's the QBs here particularly Williams. There's the famous Brady taking over for Bledsoe. 

 

This seems like really unique territory. I don't know how much I buy the not coachable stuff that I've read since he left Philly because that wasn't the talk in 2017. But if not being the starter on the SB winning team shook him, he just needs to play and not be reminded of that team. And being here gives him a chance to get vengance. 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

10 hours ago, Zim489 said:

among the worst FOs in the entire league from a football standpoint.

 

Where is the worst FOs coming from?  Horrible drafts -- I gather?  Drafts are the core of any FO.  Really down on this years crop among other things?

[Skinsinparadise]

50 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

So I'm finally looking into some of what went down in Philly with Wentz and I think that trading him to Indy was the WORSE thing that could have happened to Wentz.

 

Here's my thought process. 

 

1. Wentz is drafted 2 overall and is progressing as a QB and really looking good as a QB. 

2. The 2017 Season hits and Wentz is on Fire looking like a league MVP. 

3. Then Wentz gets hurt and a backup QB wins the SB. 

4. The locker room is divided because while they love Wentz as a QB, they also love Foles for bringing them a championship

5. Wentz is (1) dismissive of Foles's importance, and makes improper comments dismissing him, or the importance of the win. 

6. Foles is traded

7. Wentz is hurt in 2018 and goes to the playoffs again in 2019, but is hurt (and doesn't want to, or can't, go back in the game)

8. The Eagles draft Hurts in 2020. 

9. Eagles have massive OL injuries and Wentz plays 2020 behind a bunch of no names and puts up his worse season in many statistical categories and is benched

10. Eagles fire Doug and trade Wentz. 

 

 

Following the narrative some myself.  And this is coming from someone who is pro Wentz and pro the trade.  You are IMO missing two key plot lines

 

A.  Foles versus Wentz.  Foles was the belle of the ball in the locker room, too over Wentz.  It wasn't that players as you said loved BOTH.  Wentz had a small clique that he was close to especially Ertz but he was somewhat aloof in that locker room.  Foles was miles more popular according to even an ex-Eagle who was friendly with Wentz.

 

B.  Hurts versus Wentz.  Same dynamic but on sterioids.  Hurts was uber popular in the locker room by a country mile over Wentz.  I gather that's one key reason why Wentz wanted out.

 

Wentz's narrative is really similar to the dude you despise Kirk Cousins.  Midwestern country dudes who are uber religious and wear it on their sleaves, especially Wentz -- nice guys but a bit shy and aloof and both accused of being a bit phony in the locker room and have naysayers in the locker room.  Wentz is hit a bit harder than Kirk on those fronts.  Both accused of being inconsistent and not clutch.  Wentz hit a bit harder than Kirk on that front.  Defenders of both use numbers to show hey the anti-clutch stuff can be disproven and why all the hate on their personalities when they are really nice guys.  The two are cousins (pun intended) as far as narratives -- they are different in some ways but the parallels are startiing to me. 

 

Personally, I think the hate on Wentz is way overblown.  But I don't discount every narrative about him.  He certaintly has something to prove.  So I am not in the "get out of here" mode of Wentz is great, get off his back.  But I am in the mode of he COULD be great again, and I don't get why everyone discounts that fact.  And even if I run with the most negative narrative about Wentz, which is he's wildly inconsistent.  And the wildness can even happen in the same game.  Isn't that Fitz?  And more people were jazzed about Fitz.  Granted Fitz's leadership skills and personality for the spot is off the charts and Wentz on those counts is considered "meh".  But as a talent Wentz has a ton more talent than Fitz.  Worst case to me its a wash -- to me Fitz is the floor for Wentz.

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Voice_of_Reason]

8 hours ago, NickyJ said:

Just a nitpicked, but Brunell was with the Jaguars. Panthers had Jake Delhomme.

Yeah.  they had Kerry Collins at the beginning, who was pretty good for a few seasons, then trailed off.  Then Delhomme before Cam.  

[Skinsinparadise]

I was watching an espn segment about QBs with my wife yesterday, she is a Giants fan and thinks very little of Daniel Jones.  So they show a list of QBs with something to prove this season and did a countdown of who think are the top 3 as to having something to prove.  So Daniel Jones and Wentz weren't #3, or #2.  So right before they list #1 she goes it has to be Daniel Jones.  I go nope trust me it will be Wentz.  The national media hates him.  She goes no chance.  And dum roll...of course they say its Wentz.

 

Like I've said here among others, Wentz is arguably the #1 punchline QB, maybe player in the league.  Peter Schrager talked about this on Good Morning Football.

 

And it has to be the strangest narratives in all my years following the spot.  I know some go that's because he plays here -- but that's certainly not true.  The Fitz signing was celebrated by most of the national media as had most of our moves over the years at QB.  It's very Wentz centric. 

 

I've pointed out months ago part of that is its about love of the Eagles and Colts FO from the national media.  And @Voice_of_Reason in particular likes to make this point whenever the topic is brought up.  But I think its deeper than that, too.  Wentz is polarizing even when scouts are asked off the record.  It crosses to analytics guys.  Agents.  On and on.  It has many legs to it in many corners.   

 

It's twilight zone level weird to me/. I am not saying these guys should celebrate Wentz.  They want to say he's up and down and at best average -- I wouldn't think that's crazy even though I think he's better than that -- but a joke?  Like John Beck level joke?  It's nuts. 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Thinking Skins]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Wentz's narrative is really similar to the dude you despise Kirk Cousins.  Midwestern country dudes who are uber religious and wear it on their sleaves, especially Wentz -- nice guys but a bit shy and aloof and both accused of being a bit phony in the locker room and have naysayers in the locker room.  Both accused of being inconsistent and not clutch.  Defenders of both use numbers to show hey the anti-clutch stuff can be disproven and why all the hate on their personalities when they are really nice guys.  The two are cousins (pun intended) as far as narratives -- they are different in some ways but the parallels are startiing to me. 

 

Personally, I think the hate on Wentz is way overblown.  But I don't discount every narrative about him.  He certaintly has something to prove.  So I am not in the "get out of here" mode of Wentz is great, get off his back.  But I am in the mode of he COULD be great again, and I don't get why everyone discounts that fact.  And even if I run with the most negative narrative about Wentz, which is he's wildly inconsistent.  And the wildness can even happen in the same game.  Isn't that Fitz?  And more people were jazzed about Fitz.  Granted Fitz's leadership skills and personality for the spot is off the charts and Wentz on those counts is considered "meh".  But as a talent Wentz has a ton more talent than Fitz.  Worst case to me its a wash -- to me Fitz is the floor for Wentz.

 

Its interesting that you bring in the Cousins comparison. I was thinking of Jimmy G but for a different reason (he came in and looked good in NE but then was traded). I don't know his personality but think its more of the Hurts type than the Wentz type. But the thing about the Kirk comparison is that Kirk was a backup who was allowed to sit in the corner and be quiet, Wentz wasn't. Well I think he was until he was hurt (and benched). None of this talk was going on when Wentz was an MVP candidate. How many QBs do you think have the Kirk/Wentz personality? You think they're all these extroverts who just want to laugh and joke? I also think that there are a number of QBs who aren't clutch. We've gone over this a  lot of times and we may disagree on the names but I'd say Ryan, Stafford, Kirk, Wentz, Goff, Carr, etc. But I think that you put any of these guys into that same situation and you'd get a similar result. 

 

I'm thinking back on this and I remember Vick and his greatness as a QB, but also how he was hurt. Then in came Schaub who wasn't a pro bowler and was clearly not as good of a QB as Vick, but he did throw a ball better, so there were rumblings that the team would be better  I also think about McNabb in Philly and how he'd get hurt and then backups would come in and play well but never get any success. Like in 2002, Feely came in and went 4-1 and closed out the year but they played the playoffs with McNabb. 

 

This is such a unique situation. There have been only what like 55 SB Winning QBs and only a handful of backups. How many of those backups didn't start for that team the next year? Its gotta be something that shakes the confidence of the QB if not his standing in the locker room. It doesn't hurt that Foles has this attitude of YOLO and is a lot easier going. The Hurts part adds to it and I feel like the writing was already on the wall then. Like, they wanted Wentz to work out but were hedging their bets. 

[Thinking Skins]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I've pointed out months ago part of that is its about love of the Eagles and Colts FO from the national media.  And @Voice_of_Reason in particular likes to make this point whenever the topic is brought up.  But I think its deeper than that, too.  Wentz is polarizing even when scouts are asked off the record.  It crosses to analytics guys.  Agents.  On and on.  It has many legs to it in many corners.   

 

This is what's frustrated me the most about Wentz. Its kinda like with Alex Smith, he'd put up good stats by their basic metrics (passer rating?) so they'd INVENT a new stat TO SHOW that Alex wasn't good. Instead of going that far, the guy just comes on Al Galdi's show and says yeah I know Carson looks good in the stats but there's stuff he's doing that the stats are not picking up and that's why he has high QBR or that's why he has so few interceptions. 

 

I can't wait for us to go 6-2 but still be called a fake team because of Wentz and the hidden numbers. What I'm looking for is the defense because like I thought in 1996 and 1997 with Gus, if our defense could have turned around we could have been good that year. Both in 2008 and 2017, I wasn't buying the hype but it was a nice ride. In 2018 I was buying the hype way more than most but then when Smith went down I wasn't buying any hype. I thought the JJ guy was a cool story but that injury took the wind out of me. 

 

I can just see us starting the season on fire and analysts still looking to create a story about whatever reason Wentz won't work. 

[CarlH]

We were living parallel lives at that time @Skinsinparadise. I had the exact same experience watching that segment with my partner (she is a Steelers fan, however). In what universe does a guy with a 44-40 overall win loss record and a Super Bowl ring have more to prove than the guy ih NY wirh a 12-26 record. 

[dawgjk9]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

So I'm finally looking into some of what went down in Philly with Wentz and I think that trading him to Indy was the WORSE thing that could have happened to Wentz.

 

Here's my thought process. 

 

1. Wentz is drafted 2 overall and is progressing as a QB and really looking good as a QB. 

2. The 2017 Season hits and Wentz is on Fire looking like a league MVP. 

3. Then Wentz gets hurt and a backup QB wins the SB. 

4. The locker room is divided because while they love Wentz as a QB, they also love Foles for bringing them a championship

5. Wentz is (1) dismissive of Foles's importance, and makes improper comments dismissing him, or the importance of the win. 

6. Foles is traded

7. Wentz is hurt in 2018 and goes to the playoffs again in 2019, but is hurt (and doesn't want to, or can't, go back in the game)

8. The Eagles draft Hurts in 2020. 

9. Eagles have massive OL injuries and Wentz plays 2020 behind a bunch of no names and puts up his worse season in many statistical categories and is benched

10. Eagles fire Doug and trade Wentz. 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm old and this is a pet peeve of mine but.....its WORST.  Not worst. 

 

Just like it's lose, not loose. 

 

🤦‍♂️

[Thinking Skins]

2 minutes ago, dawgjk9 said:

 

I'm old and this is a pet peeve of mine but.....its WORST.  Not worst. 

 

Just like it's lose, not loose. 

 

🤦‍♂️

I hate that because I never learned the difference. I always just go with whatever one my fingers type and pray for acceptance. 

[dawgjk9]

Just now, Thinking Skins said:

I hate that because I never learned the difference. I always just go with whatever one my fingers type and pray for acceptance. 

Hey at least you're admitting you'd like to learn! It's easy:

1. Worse: use this when there's only 2 options (This person is WORSE than that person)

2. Worst: use when there's more than 2 options: (We have the WORST team owner in the history of all team sports)

 

Thanks for not jumping on me for bein curmudgeon-y  

[Skinsinparadise]

26 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Its interesting that you bring in the Cousins comparison. I was thinking of Jimmy G but for a different reason (he came in and looked good in NE but then was traded). I don't know his personality but think its more of the Hurts type than the Wentz type. But the thing about the Kirk comparison is that Kirk was a backup who was allowed to sit in the corner and be quiet, Wentz wasn't. Well I think he was until he was hurt (and benched). None of this talk was going on when Wentz was an MVP candidate. How many QBs do you think have the Kirk/Wentz personality? You think they're all these extroverts who just want to laugh and joke? I also think that there are a number of QBs who aren't clutch. We've gone over this a  lot of times and we may disagree on the names but I'd say Ryan, Stafford, Kirk, Wentz, Goff, Carr, etc. But I think that you put any of these guys into that same situation and you'd get a similar result. 

 

I'm thinking back on this and I remember Vick and his greatness as a QB, but also how he was hurt. Then in came Schaub who wasn't a pro bowler and was clearly not as good of a QB as Vick, but he did throw a ball better, so there were rumblings that the team would be better  I also think about McNabb in Philly and how he'd get hurt and then backups would come in and play well but never get any success. Like in 2002, Feely came in and went 4-1 and closed out the year but they played the playoffs with McNabb. 

 

This is such a unique situation. There have been only what like 55 SB Winning QBs and only a handful of backups. How many of those backups didn't start for that team the next year? Its gotta be something that shakes the confidence of the QB if not his standing in the locker room. It doesn't hurt that Foles has this attitude of YOLO and is a lot easier going. The Hurts part adds to it and I feel like the writing was already on the wall then. Like, they wanted Wentz to work out but were hedging their bets. 

 

Ryan, Stafford, and Carr are clutch. Arguably VERY clutch.  I think the point you can make about them is they aren't elite.  Ryan had brushes of elite play but through most of his career he's been good to very good.  They can't carry a team on their back like a Mahomes, Rodgers, etc, they are a tier below them. 

 

Digesting Kirk and Wentz on clutch play.  I do think some criticism of them is overblown.  But some of it is certainly on the money, too.  I got no problem with anyone who says they aren't the dude you want in a big games with high stakes.  I do think though on occasion they do surprise.

 

As for personality, I don't live and die with it.  To me there are 4 typical types

 

A.  Uber leaders.   Feels like the Colts are smitten with Ryan because they feel that's him.  Rivers, Peyton, Brady, Fitz, etc.  Supposedly Pickett.

 

B. Play it medium.  Not uber leaders, but have some leadership.  Guys like Carr.  Jimmy G.   Hurts.  

 

C.  Leadership isn't their thing -- introverted but nice guys.  Kirk, Wentz, Herbert, Daniel Jones. Justin Fields

 

D.  Jerks who have attitude.  Jeff George.  Kyler Murray.  Some say Mayield, some say not. 

 

Personally how they play to me is more important.  Everything being equal, i love category A, hate D. 

 

Not sure where I'd put Dak he seems to be considered an uber leader by some but not others.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

35 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

This is what's frustrated me the most about Wentz. Its kinda like with Alex Smith, he'd put up good stats by their basic metrics (passer rating?) so they'd INVENT a new stat TO SHOW that Alex wasn't good. Instead of going that far, the guy just comes on Al Galdi's show and says yeah I know Carson looks good in the stats but there's stuff he's doing that the stats are not picking up and that's why he has high QBR or that's why he has so few interceptions. 

 

I can't wait for us to go 6-2 but still be called a fake team because of Wentz and the hidden numbers. What I'm looking for is the defense because like I thought in 1996 and 1997 with Gus, if our defense could have turned around we could have been good that year. Both in 2008 and 2017, I wasn't buying the hype but it was a nice ride. In 2018 I was buying the hype way more than most but then when Smith went down I wasn't buying any hype. I thought the JJ guy was a cool story but that injury took the wind out of me. 

 

I can just see us starting the season on fire and analysts still looking to create a story about whatever reason Wentz won't work. 

 

I think its almost the opposite of Alex Smith as opposed to similar.   Most of the national media LOVES Alex.  His stats don't help him.  The narrative about Alex is usually ignore the stats let alone having to invent one to go after him because the stats sell him. Maybe you are referring to squarely 2017, which some imputed as a statistically anamoly? 

 

Alex has thrown for over 4000 yards just once and he typically isn't even close to it.  He's never even hit 30 TDs.  Heck he only hit 20 TDs or more 3 times in his long career. When he had that big game against the Lions here where he threw over 300 yards, it was posted that he was a borderline career game for him.    The stat you said that was invented basically showed his low YPA has even further legs to it -- Football Outsiders showed that he throws short of the sticks on third down so much that they named the stat after him.

 

As for Alex they say he's accurate and Wentz isn't.  Their career completion rate is actually identical.   62.6%.   Wentz put up games and stats that Alex can only dream of.   But they love Alex the person, the say he's a winner because the Chiefs won when he played regardless of the stats.  Whereas with Wentz, they see the dude as less than his stats and don't like him personally for whatever reason. 

 

in short they see Alex to be greater than the sum of his parts.  And Wentz to be lesser than the sum of his parts.  If your point is the national media didn't see Alex as great and should have seen it -- I disagree.  Alex wasn't IMO a great QB.  But he was certainly good or at a minimum had really good leadership skills and the team rallied around him in ways that the media don't believe exists with Wentz. 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Inigo Montoya]

All this Wentz talk in locker rooms hasn’t taken into consideration how unique each locker room is. Locker rooms take on personalities, sometimes it’s the coaches personality, other times not. You are talking about huge variations in backgrounds. People bring up being aloof and religious, but it’s more than that.

- Wentz values family time and hunting and being with the boys in the woods, that kind of stuff

- what if his locker room is a bunch of young guys, with new money, going out and partying on the weekend. How do you connect then?

 

he’s got all the talent you could need, but his confidence is shot. Our offense doesn’t seem to be easy to pick up and I have huge questions on whether or not our O coordinator is any good. I think Wentz had as good a shot as any to have a great NFL career, being too careless with his body early + terrible set of circumstances played out and he’s on his last starter role here. I hope like hell it works out, imo it’s on Scott turner to make this work. 

[Thinking Skins]

16 minutes ago, Inigo Montoya said:

All this Wentz talk in locker rooms hasn’t taken into consideration how unique each locker room is. Locker rooms take on personalities, sometimes it’s the coaches personality, other times not. You are talking about huge variations in backgrounds. People bring up being aloof and religious, but it’s more than that.

- Wentz values family time and hunting and being with the boys in the woods, that kind of stuff

- what if his locker room is a bunch of young guys, with new money, going out and partying on the weekend. How do you connect then?

 

he’s got all the talent you could need, but his confidence is shot. Our offense doesn’t seem to be easy to pick up and I have huge questions on whether or not our O coordinator is any good. I think Wentz had as good a shot as any to have a great NFL career, being too careless with his body early + terrible set of circumstances played out and he’s on his last starter role here. I hope like hell it works out, imo it’s on Scott turner to make this work. 

More than that is how does the coach bring these guys together? Do you have a guy who wants to see a lot of fights and physicality? Do you have a guy who wants to see you in the film room for hours and hours. You mention children and thats something that Wentz has personally mentioned about his growth. Me before children had like 2 topics to talk about at work (sports and movies). Now parenthood trumps that by a large aspect and I can talk to almost everybody here because many of us have common situations as kids or as parents of kids. And its not that it makes me a better "leader" but it helps me connect with teams and groups of people. Maybe I'm giving a presentation and I'm nervous so I throw in a comment about the first day of school and how uneasy my kids feel about that. Suddenly the room is sharing stories about themselves or their kids. It helps break the ice for my presentation. 

 

Locker rooms are different. We had the ping pong table here for Lord knows how long. We had AGG doing Rubik's cubes and stuff. This team is unique because we've had horrible tragedies taking place here left and right (I think about Taylor, Everett, Sweat, Moreau, Robinson and that's just off the top of my head and the things that have been public). Being able  to just be there for your teammate is a lot. 

 

And this is where the whole "culture" thing comes into place. I respect Ron right now for building a culture about this team but also for being a guy that isn't going to call his players out in the media like Singletary or Denny Green did in those viral clips. I can't say that Reich or Doug did that but I also don't know what kind of locker rooms they try to create. It seems like Reich relies on the QBs more to build the locker room, whereas Ron is trying to bring in a bunch of guys who are all things like team captains and leaders. 

 

We'll see. 

30 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think its almost the opposite of Alex Smith as opposed to similar.   Most of the national media LOVES Alex.  His stats don't help him.  The narrative about Alex is usually ignore the stats let alone having to invent one to go after him because the stats sell him. Maybe you are referring to squarely 2017, which some imputed as a statistically anamoly? 

 

Alex has thrown for over 4000 yards just once and he typically isn't even close to it.  He's never even hit 30 TDs.  Heck he only hit 20 TDs or more 3 times in his long career. When he had that big game against the Lions here where he threw over 300 yards, it was posted that he was a borderline career game for him.    The stat you said that was invented basically showed his low YPA has even further legs to it -- Football Outsiders showed that he throws short of the sticks on third down so much that they named the stat after him.

 

As for Alex they say he's accurate and Wentz isn't.  Their career completion rate is actually identical.   62.6%.   Wentz put up games and stats that Alex can only dream of.   But they love Alex the person, the say he's a winner because the Chiefs won when he played regardless of the stats.  Whereas with Wentz, they see the dude as less than his stats and don't like him personally for whatever reason. 

 

in short they see Alex to be greater than the sum of his parts.  And Wentz to be lesser than the sum of his parts.  If your point is the national media didn't see Alex as great and should have seen it -- I disagree.  Alex wasn't IMO a great QB.  But he was certainly good or at a minimum had really good leadership skills and the team rallied around him in ways that the media don't believe exists with Wentz. 

I'm talking analytics over media with this. Analytics was something that Smith was good at but then PFF or FootballOutsiders went and said that tehy would create the Alex stat because Smith was throwing it short of the first down and depending on the catchers to get YAC. Why is that important? Is he protecting the ball? Are they getting first downs? It is a stat they admittedly created to just make Smith look bad. 

[Koolblue13]

Terry, Aleen, Ron all have the same personality and it's blue collar and hard work. Wentz fits right into that. Good culture.

[Cooleyfan1993]

1 hour ago, dawgjk9 said:

 

I'm old and this is a pet peeve of mine but.....its WORST.  Not worst. 

 

Just like it's lose, not loose. 

 

🤦‍♂️

Umm……worst is the same word as worst  

 

sorry, I had to  

[Zim489]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Where is the worst FOs coming from?  Horrible drafts -- I gather?  Drafts are the core of any FO.  Really down on this years crop among other things?

The drafts. First draft comes down to chase being the player he can be. If he doesnt its a big miss of a draft. 2021 they swung for ceilings which I love but havent hit. The 2022 draft was clearly about ceiling on the back burner in favor of immediate contribution. I personally feel thats the biggest sin a FO can make. Playing for the moment with the draft ultimately leads to a lack of talent over time. The lack of aggression in talent acquisition overall. The Carolina North aspect to nearly every single player they have acquired. The general roster building more akin to winning 2005 football opposed to 2022. 

 

But for the second part of your question. I really hate this years draft. Outside of Mathis I dont hate any of the players overall. (Mathis is a run stuffing DT in a game where run defense means little. If you want better run defense, score more points and then teams run less against you). Its just the value wasnt there for all of them. A first round WR I expect to compete for among the best in the league. I personally see zero chance of that happening. The amount of successful WRs weighed under 180 at the combine you can count on one hand. Hes not elite in his hips or his top speed. Hes better suited as a Y or Z. Problem is that were forcing Terry to be our X when I feel hes personally best at the Y. Team lacks a true X WR. Jahan can not play there. It really sucks missing out on London. Would have diversified the position so much with Cam being our only big body and hes nothing but a Jag. 

 

Hate the Mathis pick on every single level. Arsonist putting out a fire situation at a devalued aspect of the game. Complete Boomer FO move here.

 

BRob. 3rd round RB is another archaic move for an archaic FO. Its also a fix to a "failure" of a previous archaic move in Gibson. You can find RBs anywhere in the draft. Using 2 3rd rounders in 3 years for a devalued position that shouldnt be resigned regardless of success is just bad. RBs rarely should be resigned unless you can get them on the cheap. Good workhorses dont sign for cheap. Paying them is also bad for cap management due to the ease of replaceability.  

 

Beyond that it gets down to just hoping you hit on rolls of the dice. Howell is good "value". I say that because I had him more of a 3rd rounder. But the position is changing. If he turns out to be decent it doesnt really do much for you and is better used as trade bait to get some day 2 picks from some one. 

 

The only pick I liked was Cole Turner. 7 of the top 10 TEs in the league have RAS' over 9. 8/10 over 8. 9/10 over 7. Its the single easiest position in football to determine if a guy is going to be elite or not. The staff thankfully picked a guy with a good RAS score. That shows thankfully some analytical insight. I read early in the year that the league and/or agents (cant remember which) said that this staff is among the least believing in analytics. Not surprising when you hear many other sources claiming that this group is very old school. 

 

Ultimately I think its fairly easy to get a bad team to battle for the 500 mark. It takes a lot to take that same team from the decent place to good/great. Mostly relies on the QB spot but as we saw in Detroit with stafford that you need more than just a good QB. You need great talent across the roster. Not saying that you need a Pro bowl player at every position. Thats fantasy land but you want 2-3 on defense and 2-3 on offense that are in argument for top 5-10 at their position. Namely at the high impact ones of LT Edge CB WR. The game changers. I feel this staff is content with building a decent roster and hoping to get lucky with a Giants like run. Its possible but the odds arent something I want them to chase and hope for.

 

It all starts and ends with QB. If you dont have a great one no other move matters. I dont think they understood that from the first year. I think Dan pushed Ron to give Dwayne a chance and I can see Ron agreeing with that before ever putting pen to paper on the contract. I would have assumed that Dan was an idiot and that it wouldnt have worked out and immediately attacked with positioning yourself for the 2021 draft. Every single move should have been met with "will this get us a QB next year" You already knew that if healthy, TL was going to be 1.1. Every single move would have been how do we ensure getting one of the top guys in the draft. Hell we had 1.2 mid way through November.

 

I think he missed his window and now were stuck firmly in the middle where the roster is too good to blow up under Ron. Its also not good enough to do any real damage in the playoffs. Were IMO firmly 3rd in the division which means at best competing for the 7th seed in the conference with the honor of getting blown out in LA GB or SF. Were going to have to get lucky by getting the 3rd or 4th option in a draft. Not out of the question but I dont have trust in this collection of decision makers or coaching staff sans Zampese to get it right. Their collective history is not good. Im also terrifed of the 2023 offseason when we miss the playoffs again with a possible losing record and Ron feeling desperate entering his 4th of 5th year. Throwing an RG3 level trade to move up for a QB just to have said rookie qb struggle because thats what rookie QBs do. Then you have 4 years of bad football under Ron. Cant extend him. FedEx would be even more of a ghost town. The fanbase would want nothing to do with HC that has full control and cant accomplish anything but hope to get a wild card spot. He wont coach on a lame duck contract because only 1 HC in recent memory has done that. So at that point we have to find a new HC/GM and who the hell wants to come here and do that after the previous staff just traded away picks and youre now stuck with the previous staffs QB pick. Its just repeating the the Mike into Jay transition all over again. It would be an utter disaster. A Zorn level hire would happen. Essentially because of the mistakes of 2020 offseason were now staring at 8 years of mediocrity at best. 

 

What I think is weird here and else where in Commander land is that being mediocre seems to be ok to many. They often bring up the record over the last 20 years where were among the worst in the league but they never really dig deep into why. This team is ALWAYS mediocre. Thats the problem. They almost always end up in the middle of the pack drafting in the 11-15 spot of the draft. Occasionally in the top 10. Rarely top 5. Occasionally in the 18-22 range in the rare year they actually make the playoffs. Im just tired of the lack of coherent multi year plan. 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Zim489

[FootballZombie]

53 minutes ago, Inigo Montoya said:

- Wentz values family time and hunting and being with the boys in the woods, that kind of stuff

- what if his locker room is a bunch of young guys, with new money, going out and partying on the weekend. How do you connect then?

 

There are certainly ways to overcome this, as there are there are plenty of QBs who I would not associate with the young party lifestyle but are still lauded as strong leaders. There is no requirement that you have to personally share off the field tendencies, even if it would help.

 

Many strong leaders are able to navigate these waters by focusing on what is common ground, football. They could command respect with an overbearing professional aura. Others are uber charismatic and are able to kind of draw people to them, rather than relate to much of anything. Some guys do it w/ pure stats. They may not have much to offer leadership wise, but they are seen as the unquestioned and loved head of the snake while they are delivering the goods.

[Skinsinparadise]

39 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

We'll see. 

I'm talking analytics over media with this. Analytics was something that Smith was good at but then PFF or FootballOutsiders went and said that tehy would create the Alex stat because Smith was throwing it short of the first down and depending on the catchers to get YAC. Why is that important? Is he protecting the ball? Are they getting first downs? It is a stat they admittedly created to just make Smith look bad. 

 

Alex has his strengths and weakness.  Like any QB who isn't elite, there is some yin and yang to them.  Alex's thing was he was genuinely a conservative style player.   He was below average as for yards and TDs and throwing it down the field aside from a season or two.  He was above average as for the short game, mobility, avoiding mistakes and leadership.

 

I am sort of a play it medium with Alex guy and for thinking that way, I've gotten hit by both sides of the argument for playing it in the middle of the road.

 

But I'll give a prop to the Alex is king crowd on something that I didn't really think of at the time but have heard since.  That is, don't undervalue a QB who actually knows the plays the team wants to run.  I was surprised to hear how many QBs, don't know the playbook that well.  But Alex knowing the playbook was apparently a huge help to the team versus some of the other QBs who were here.  It helped him direct other players on offense who weren't familar with the offense.  And Alex's calmness and directive style was a help.

 

Reading the stuff about the Colts as how Matt Ryan is a godsend and an improvement over Wentz reminds me some of that narrative about Alex.  Ryan supposedly is study freak and wants to know the playback backwards and forwards.  I don't sense this is a weakness with Wentz but I do sense the next part is which is Ryan is very vocal as to directing the offense and preparing them and fosters a sense of calm in the pocket.  Alex wasn't really loud vocally from what I heard but he definitely took ownership of the whole offense, knew the playbook backwards and forward and fostered a sense of calmness in the pocket.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Thinking Skins]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Reading the stuff about the Colts as how Matt Ryan is a godsend and an improvement over Wentz reminds me some of that narrative about Alex.  Ryan supposedly is study freak and wants to know the playback backwards and forwards.  I don't sense this is a weakness with Wentz but I do sense the next part is which is Ryan is very vocal as to directing the offense and preparing them and fosters a sense of calm in the pocket.  Alex wasn't really loud vocally from what I heard but he definitely took ownership of the whole offense, knew the playbook backwards and forward and fostered a sense of calmness in the pocket.

This is what gets me though. I have been hearing the same thing about Carson and Heinicke vs say Haskins. That may be a low bar but people are talking about Carson's ability to lead the offense and our lack of penalties like no offsides, knowing the snap count, not having problems with delay of game or getting out of the huddle, etc. Now that's only preseason but its interesting because as I said in my prediction thread, I'm not looking for Carson to light the world on fire, but just have us steadily moving in and out of the huddle and going up and down the field with Tampa like Game Plans and with that I can see us going 6-2 to start the year. 

[Inigo Montoya]

5 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

Many strong leaders are able to navigate these waters by focusing on what is common ground, football. They could command respect with an overbearing professional aura. Others are uber charismatic and are able to kind of draw people to them, rather than relate to much of anything. Some guys do it w/ pure stats. They may not have much to offer leadership wise, but they are seen as the unquestioned and loved head of the snake while they are delivering the goods.

 

Absolutely, my comment wasn't meant to capture every aspect of how to be a leader. But "gelling" and personality matches is the easiest path to some quick commonality. Funny enough, I thought Wentz was plenty charismatic as a young NFL QB. He doesn't have the pure stats and is on his 3rd team in 3 years. Seems his replacement in Indy is the overbearing professional aura... which can backfire. Ala BB without Brady and a Matt Ryan if he doesn't play well. 

 

the QB position is so unique and has so many different approaches, its fascinating. 

[Thinking Skins]

49 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Terry, Aleen, Ron all have the same personality and it's blue collar and hard work. Wentz fits right into that. Good culture.

More than just that, the fact that these guys are all on board gives him a clean slate with the rest of the locker room. There could be hiccups here and there (like the Payne Jon fight) but what we don't want is a locker room civil war where we have a big name like Chase Young saying he doesn't like Wentz. That said, I just don't see something like what happened in Philly happening here. So the only other real option is Wentz playing poorly and the locker room calling for Howell. That's possible but if Wentz plays bad the experiment is over. 

 

This is a team that is thirsty for a QB. We have seen what we can do with decent to good QB play (10996, 1997, 1999, 2005, 2007, 2012, 2016, 2017, 2018, heck even 2020 and 2021). This team and more this locker room is just thirsty for a QB because we have players at the other positions. We have not been good at picking all pros but we have been good at getting good not great players at just about every position except QB. When we can get the QB who is respectful, we look good as a team. 

 

Lets freakin go. 

[Alexa]

If you are a good QB you are not on your 3rd team in 3 years. It ain't that hard people. Wentz is damaged goods. Never should have signed him. This is what happens when you have Ron as your coach and he has the final say. Ron has totally screwed up the QB position since he has been here.