The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[HigSkin]

The truth is the ups/downs is what we're going to get with Wentz, like Fitz and others.  Here's a game by game look at his stats and it is a roller coaster.  I don't think anybody is expecting anything different but if it's more consistent than great.

 

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/player/carson-wentz-24870/game-log?seasonYear=2021

 

[mistertim]

Mitch Trubisky at 12     

 

[Alexa]

3 hours ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

Explain further please. I'd like specifics from when he was hired to now.

He didn't actually draft a QB until his 3rd year in the job. He keeps going w/ scraps...  Haskins, Fitz, Wentz..   Maybe he gave Haskins a chance to get the job. Just don't like the way he has handled it. Should have got a young guy his first or second year. Never like the Jamin Davis pick. Davis is a project.  

[Zim489]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

A.  The emphasis on DT stuffing the run, you mention and how its old school.  In three years, Ron drafts one DT in 2nd round, that's basically it.  Spends really no money on the spot in FA.  Dumps Ionnadis.  Lets Settle go for peanuts in FA.  And supposely he's not willing to give a big contract to Payne.  It's actually easier to argue he demphasized the spot versus overemphasized it.

The more prudent move would have been trading payne resigning settle and grabbing a vet or two. Hell they STILL have cap space now to do that. 

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

B.  Sticking to this as a theme, passing defense versus run defense.  Two of his biggest FA signings have been for corners.

I look more at their LBs they keep bringing in for snaps that have zero ability in coverage.

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

C.  Passing game versus running game.   With your thought he's more old school and into the running game.  One of his biggest FA signings was for a WR.  Not a RB.    He drafts a WR in the 4th round or above in every draft including using his first rounder on WR this draft.  Spending 2 3rd rounders isn't more of an emphasis than what they've done for the passing game not even close.

Two RBs in the 3rd round in 3 years is a pretty big indication about commitment to a run game. Add in the laundry list of analytics like 2nd down runs after failed 1st downs is one of the biggest indications. 

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 Your thought seems to be Fields

I bring up fields in numerous other convos because he was really the only available option in the Ron era. Had they done what I wanted them to do in the 2020 season they would have had their option of Lance Wilson or fields. Possibly TL considering they were at 1.2 in November. My issue has always been about how the lack of self reflection about the team from the leagues perspective wipes out the vets that have choice. That 2021 draft was looking extremely strong in QB options and only grew so with the emergence of Wilson. In 2020 there was already questions about the 2022 draft being weak. It wasnt his first priority. If it was he would have came to that conclusion in January Feb of 2020 and we would have seen some corresponding moves.

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

E.  As for Carolina.  He inherited an awful team.  He had a winning record.  He went to the playoffs 4 times, and made the SB.  You act like him having Cam negates that.  And him struggling without Cam is damning.  But what head coach can you think of that consistently thrives with "meh" QB play?  

Thats fair for Ron. If only Marty Hurney hadnt left them with a terrible team. Not going to get into researching how much say Fox had in the roster. His first half of his tenure with a healthy Cam was good. The second half was very blehh. A lot of Carolina panther fans were happy to see them go. They fell into a pattern of being decent teams but on a road to no where. They were fairly displeased with the way they felt Ron ran Cam into the ground. Hes a good man and a great leader. Out of Date HC and based on what we have seen thus far a woeful football head. Personally I think he should be team president if he could actually go out and find an actual good GM from a successful franchise instead of the the legion of boomers he hired here Hurney, Mayhew, and Polian. 

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

And as far as old school, Carolina was seen as innovators with Cam.  They preceded our 2012 offense as far as the heavy zone read, etc.

Maybe in 2012 that was the case but not a soul would say that this franchise is seen as innovators. Just the opposite. Agents said it last week. Fellow scouts and GMs around the league said the same thing over the offseason. I believe from one FO member in the league quoted saying "They play to win 17-14 and thats how they do the personnel game and free agency."

[Chris 44]

1 hour ago, Llevron said:

 

how in the world could someone consider the eagles UNDER hyped? My goodness. 

Most underhyped and overhyped at the same time.....lol  Im beginning to think these guys get a bonus for every time they type the name Eagles.

[Skinsinparadise]

46 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

The more prudent move would have been trading payne resigning settle and grabbing a vet or two. Hell they STILL have cap space now to do that. 

 

 

Moving the goal posts here.  Before it was an overemphasis on the DT spot because of Mathis.  I explained far from it.  Now the argument has moved to going through the actual transactions and whether they were smart are not.

 

46 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

 

I look more at their LBs they keep bringing in for snaps that have zero ability in coverage.

 

 

What do you mean by this the backups I presume?  Jamin Davis is a new school, quick, coverage oritented player not an old school run stopping thumper.  As for the backups, one is a new school undersized coverage type.  The other two are cheap veterans who are run stoppers.

 

46 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

 

Two RBs in the 3rd round in 3 years is a pretty big indication about commitment to a run game.

 

3rd round is today's age new first round?  Your argument if you boil it down is you want ALL their major resources ALL of it on the passing game considering as i pointed out its easy to see that the predominant dedication of resources -- high picks and FA money has been to the passing game and pass defense.  But if you want it ALL in one direction than really just about every roster will disappoint you. 

 

46 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

 

I bring up fields in numerous other convos because he was really the only available option in the Ron era. Had they done what I wanted them to do in the 2020 season they would have had their option of Lance Wilson or fields. Possibly TL considering they were at 1.2 in November. My issue has always been about how the lack of self reflection about the team from the leagues perspective wipes out the vets that have choice. That 2021 draft was looking extremely strong in QB options and only grew so with the emergence of Wilson. In 2020 there was already questions about the 2022 draft being weak. It wasnt his first priority. If it was he would have came to that conclusion in January Feb of 2020 and we would have seen some corresponding moves.

 

 

You say that you are anti-Dan and I believe you are.  But you are fairly pro Dan on some fronts where you have more faith in his ability to do things that most of us don't beileve are in him.  So that's really the crux of it. 

 

A.  You think Dan would have backed off of Haskins from the jump.

B. You think that Ron not Dan is the obstacle to pursue a teardown

C.  You clearly think its hogwash that Dan can't attract a top level coach here after all that has gone down in recent years.

D.  You also think they can hire a FO guy and Dan won't get in the way.  No problem Dan won't repeat the Vinny-Bruce buddy system he's had in the past and instead he will turn over a new leaf and new approach versus find another FO buddy for him to do his thing with him behind the scenes in the shadows. 

 

If I bought all of those points -- for starters I'd condemn Ron too for not moving on from Haskins.  But I think his ability to do that was as a 0 -- no chance.

 

As for the 2021 draft, they clearly liked Fields but they didn't think Fields was sun-moon-stars the way you see him.  You are acting that you already know that you are right, that he will be better than just good and will be elite and they are wrong for missing what is obvious to you.  But you don't know, yet.  That has to play out.  I was actually high on Fields before the draft.  But it hasn't escaped me that some who watched him think he's "meh" in the pros thus far.  So I need that plot line to unfold before killing them for not seeing he's Mahomes Part 2.

 

Ditto you clearly think the verdict is already in on Howell.  And I gather the draft media sees all and knows all.  the draft media wasn't high on this class and not that high on Howell -- so the verdict is in.  I don't see it that way even though I probably ironically post more stuff from the draft media than anyone here. 

 

Keep in mind, the dude who was considered the king of the draft media, Mike Mayock, finally had a chance to showcase his brilliance in the real world and it didn't go too well.   Kiper was so convinced that Clausen was a sure thing that he said he would quit his job if he was wrong.

 

Heck playing with the draft geek consensus stuff we should applaud Rivera for not dumping Haskins from the jump considering most of the draft media saw him as a slam dunk top 10 pick who Washington "stole". 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[philibusters]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Underhyped?  I am waiting for the tweets coming soon that the Eagles are a dynasty team in the making -- the media is in love with the Eagles let alone them being underhyped.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Kevin Cole when talking about Derek Carr made a similar point.  A lot of times by the tie people really starting referring to a player as under-hyped, they are no longer underhyped.  A couple offseasons ago, a lot of people had Derek Carr ranked in the 20 range for QB's which probably was under-hyped.  Now he is usually in that 10-12 range, which is probably correct or close to it.  But some many more people say he underrated now, then they did two year or three years ago.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

[Captain James]

7 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I was watching an espn segment about QBs with my wife yesterday

[Skinsinparadise]

Carson hopefully not too many jitters.  Stay calm. 😀

 

 

 

[Zim489]

34 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Moving the goal posts here.  Before it was an overemphasis on the DT spot because of Mathis.  I explained far from it.  Now the argument has moved to going through the actual transactions and whether they were smart are not.

I really dont care much about any of the other moves around it. On its own the Mathis pick screams old school football. Never minding the arsonist firefighter. 

 

35 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

But you are fairly pro Dan

I have no idea where you keep bringing this up from. Ron had all the power in the world to do what he wanted. Probably not as strong now with 2 losing seasons. This isnt a pro or con dan argument. 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

I really dont care much about any of the other moves around it. On its own the Mathis pick screams old school football. Never minding the arsonist firefighter. 

 

 

So no DT's who major in run stuffing -- doesn't deserve even a little attention?  One 2nd round pick in three seasons and basically likely dumping 3 out of their 4 top DTs -- means dedicating a little to stop the run not much, just a little.  But he basically downsized the position.  I get its a passing league but I don't love the idea of returing to the old Jay defenses with Jags at the DT spot and teams running the ball on us at will.  Ron has gone borderline extreme at the spot but you want him to go further to the extreme. 

14 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

 

 

I have no idea where you keep bringing this up from. Ron had all the power in the world to do what he wanted. Probably not as strong now with 2 losing seasons. This isnt a pro or con dan argument. 

 

 

 

I got no idea why you don't see it.  Anyone who has faith in the "new" narrative -- round 6 of this time Dan is hands off -- is either taking a pro Dan position or paid no attention to the previous narratives.  This isn't the first rodeo of the statement that Dan will let the football guys call all the shots.  For it to finally happen it would be the first time.

 

The idea that Dan could do better than Ron which is your mantra is also a pro Dan position in the context of you have faith he can pull that off.  I've explained why many times.  It's obvious to others too who have made the same point to you.

 

I am not arguing you like Dan.  you clearly don't.  But you do have some faith that the FO and coaches aren't as hamstrung as others think they are via Dan and the idea that Dan would struggle to land name that big fish coach or FO guy -- you clearly don't buy.  You also clearly think that Dan wouldn't get in the way of a tear down. 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Zim489]

15 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Anyone who has faith in the "new" narrative -- round 6 of this time Dan is hands off

"dont like it? fire me.  Ill get a new job in a year with a cushy Fox job in the meantime. Have fun finding some one else while also paying me for the next 4 years" 

 

Ron could have gotten away with that if he really wanted to. People want to talk about Ron having all the power? Well thats an example of swinging that power dick of his. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Bifflog said:

Ah we clearly missed out on Mitch Trubisky, nearly a top 10 guy!

 

What suckers the Broncos are...

 

Also apparently we should have never let Colt McCoy go, apparently he's about a top 20 QB. 

10 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

"dont like it? fire me.  Ill get a new job in a year with a cushy Fox job in the meantime. Have fun finding some one else while also paying me for the next 4 years" 

 

Ron could have gotten away with that if he really wanted to. People want to talk about Ron having all the power? Well thats an example of swinging that power dick of his. 

 

The whole blow off your boss drill and do whatever you want and if you aren't willing to do that -- there is something wrong with you.  Then, ALL our coaches under Dan suck.  I think its easier said then done to just ignore your boss and pretend they don't exist. 

 

 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

1 hour ago, Alexa said:

He didn't actually draft a QB until his 3rd year in the job. He keeps going w/ scraps...  Haskins, Fitz, Wentz..   Maybe he gave Haskins a chance to get the job. Just don't like the way he has handled it. Should have got a young guy his first or second year. Never like the Jamin Davis pick. Davis is a project.  

 

Let's get back to Haskins and 2020, Ron's first year. He did trade for a young guy to compete with Haskins, but you maybe wanted them to draft someone in the 3rd round or later (they had no 2nd rounder)? What were the options available that Rivera did not choose? How should he have handled Haskins better?

[Zim489]

34 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

How should he have handled Haskins better?

Think they should have started him the entire year to begin with 

[Skinsinparadise]

I like Sharp.  But Goff?

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

We are gonna get laughed at and dogged by the media until we can consistently tie our cleats correctly and play hard as a unit.

 

I know this is the NFL…but the most striking condemnation of Ron (in my eyes) has been his inability to get consistently great effort from this team. There have been elements of the same old story in the preseason. 
 

And having guys finally play hard around week 8 isn’t gonna cut it. 
 

I love Rivera. I’m very pro-Ron. I hope the guys will come out swinging for him week one. 

[Alexa]

1 hour ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

Let's get back to Haskins and 2020, Ron's first year. He did trade for a young guy to compete with Haskins, but you maybe wanted them to draft someone in the 3rd round or later (they had no 2nd rounder)? What were the options available that Rivera did not choose? How should he have handled Haskins better?

He should have drafted Tua or Herbert. He should have tried to trade for Fields. You need a young guy to build around, not a vet who we already know who he is. Wentz is not a Super Bowl caliber QB at this point. 

 

Hope it works w/ Wentz, seems like a good guy and all but I just think he is a has been. I want to see Howell at the end of the year. This ain't a playoff team so once they are eliminated from playoff contention put in Howell. 

[Warhead36]

43 minutes ago, Alexa said:

He should have drafted Tua or Herbert. He should have tried to trade for Fields. You need a young guy to build around, not a vet who we already know who he is. Wentz is not a Super Bowl caliber QB at this point. 

 

Hope it works w/ Wentz, seems like a good guy and all but I just think he is a has been. I want to see Howell at the end of the year. This ain't a playoff team so once they are eliminated from playoff contention put in Howell. 

Tua and Fields have both been mostly pretty bad so far. NOONE saw Herbert being this good. Hindsight is always 20/20. If at the time we took Tua or Herbert over Young this fan base would have rioted, or if we traded the multiple 1sts+ required for Fields considering how poor he played as a rook.

[Skinsinparadise]

Exactly

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Sheehan oddly coming around on Wentz while saying he's not come around on him.   His points.

 

A.  Wentz somewhere between 17-21 best QBs in the league

B.  He has a high ceiling -- ceiling is higher than 17

C.  Before he said Wentz > Mayfield and likes this move over Carolina's with Mayfield

D. Major upgrade on the previous Qbs

E. Makes fun of the national media's lampooning Wentz

F.  He says he has the highest ceiling here since Kirk 

G.  Says he's a very impressive interview -- likes how Wentz has come off when interviewed

 

With all of that, he still summarizes himself not high on the deal and not high on Wentz being the answer here?  I am ok with all of his points except the Kirk one.  I like Kirk more than some on this board do.  But I don't see Kirk as a higher ceiling QB than Wentz.  Kirk is probably the better QB and certainly the more consistent one.  But Wentz has the higher ceiling, clearly. 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

Phillips and Sheehan talked about the perception of Wentz and this team accordingly and does the marriage of the two make it all worse for Wentz as to the perception game.  They took it in a different angle than some others do on this point where some say the national media is crapping on Wentz because he's playing here and the national media doesn't like this team.  I fight back some on this point because I recall the clippings on the other QBs we've acquired and the PR then was mostly positive and at times VERY positive.

 

But their angle is this is the graveyard for QBs in the NFL.  This is where QBs come to die with rare exceptions.  What can go wrong goes wrong at that spot including even Fitz's injury.  So thinking about it from that angle, they got a point. 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[goskins10]

33 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Sheehan oddly coming around on Wentz while saying he's not come around on him.   His points.

 

A.  Wentz somewhere between 17-21 best QBs in the league

B.  He has a high ceiling -- ceiling is higher than 17

C.  Before he said Wentz > Mayfield and likes this move over Carolina's with Mayfield

D. Major upgrade on the previous Qbs

E. Makes fun of the national media's lampooning Wentz

F.  He says he has the highest ceiling here since Kirk 

G.  Says he's a very impressive interview -- likes how Wentz has come off when interviewed

 

With all of that, he still summarizes himself not high on the deal and not high on Wentz being the answer here?  I am ok with all of his points except the Kirk one.  I like Kirk more than some on this board do.  But I don't see Kirk as a higher ceiling QB than Wentz.  Kirk is probably the better QB and certainly the more consistent one.  But Wentz has the higher ceiling, clearly. 

 

This is pretty funny since I think his points are where most of us are and have been, while he has been trashing the entire thing like it was th dumbest move of the last decade. 

 

Guys like Sheehan do tend to adjust thier opinions based on how the guy is when they interview them - not the best metric. So I think G has had the most impact on his coming around, not anything play or practice related. Not important but jsut an observation. 

 

I agree with you, I think he has a higher ceiling than Kirk. Part of that is I think we have better players around him. But time wil ltell. My thoughts on the trade have not changed since day one. Not a big fan but didn't hate it and see it was really thier only move. I like the upside and that they can get out of it quickly with no more additional pain. Howell is intriguing but could still see them selling out for a top QB prospect in next years draft if Wentz washes out. 

 

We should see Carson's competitive spirit this Sunday. He should want to rip Jacksonville's head off. Hope he gets it done. I think when the Colts started so poorly they immediately turned on Wentz and they never stopped blaming him for any issues. I think had they started faster that may not have happened. Same here. If he starts with a solid performance against Jack, he will be given a lot more rope by the fans. If he lays an egg, it will be very ugly. 

 

Sunday cannot get here soon enough.