The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

3 minutes ago, Alexa said:

If you are a good QB you are not on your 3rd team in 3 years. It ain't that hard people. Wentz is damaged goods. Never should have signed him. This is what happens when you have Ron as your coach and he has the final say. Ron has totally screwed up the QB position since he has been here. 

 

 

 

Explain further please. I'd like specifics from when he was hired to now.

[Cooleyfan1993]

5 minutes ago, Alexa said:

If you are a good QB you are not on your 3rd team in 3 years. It ain't that hard people. Wentz is damaged goods. Never should have signed him. This is what happens when you have Ron as your coach and he has the final say. Ron has totally screwed up the QB position since he has been here. 

 

 

1) the reason why wentz was traded from the eagles to the colts was because he WANTED to leave Philly. The eagles were actually telling coaching candidates they wanted to try to keep him. 
 

2) the colts coaches/GM wanted to keep him as well. 

 

Seeing as how both of those organizations wanted to keep him, I’d say that shows he is a good QB 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2022-nfl-predictions/quarterbacks/

 

Ouch. They've got Wentz as the 5th best QB in the NFC East.

 

Backup QB's they list as better:

- Gardner Minshew

- Nick Mullens

- Case Keenum

- Teddy Bridgewater

- Nick Foles

- CJ Beathard (tied with Wentz)

- Geno Smith (I know he's the starter...but still)

- Drew Lock

- Colt McCoy

- Jimmy G

 

Funnily enough they have Matt Ryan as worse than Wentz and not even the best QB on the Colts.

[Zim489]

32 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

More than just that, the fact that these guys are all on board gives him a clean slate with the rest of the locker room. There could be hiccups here and there (like the Payne Jon fight) but what we don't want is a locker room civil war where we have a big name like Chase Young saying he doesn't like Wentz. That said, I just don't see something like what happened in Philly happening here. So the only other real option is Wentz playing poorly and the locker room calling for Howell. That's possible but if Wentz plays bad the experiment is over. 

 

This is a team that is thirsty for a QB. We have seen what we can do with decent to good QB play (10996, 1997, 1999, 2005, 2007, 2012, 2016, 2017, 2018, heck even 2020 and 2021). This team and more this locker room is just thirsty for a QB because we have players at the other positions. We have not been good at picking all pros but we have been good at getting good not great players at just about every position except QB. When we can get the QB who is respectful, we look good as a team. 

 

Lets freakin go. 

I think you and the rest of the fan base have wildly different ideas of what a good QB is lol. Out of those years only 2012 and 16 I would consider good years. 2020 was one of the worst QB performances I have ever watched. It wasnt an NFL offense. 

[TheBlueIndian]

I don't get it at all. Carson hasn't exactly set the world on fire with outstanding play, but he has been more than serviceable at the position. To see some of this crap makes you think there is some kind of agenda in destroying this guys confidence. The disdain seems misplaced. Perhaps there is an evil little garden gnome that should be the target of  such a lack of respect.

 

To read some of this makes you think the guy pooped himself every time he suits up. 

 

Carson needs to adapt a Jordan mentality and use this stuff as fuel. I hope he can and I hope Ron does as well.  

[Thinking Skins]

50 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

I think you and the rest of the fan base have wildly different ideas of what a good QB is lol. Out of those years only 2012 and 16 I would consider good years. 2020 was one of the worst QB performances I have ever watched. It wasnt an NFL offense. 

I was talking about the starts in particular. 

 

1996 - 7-1 (8-3)

1997 - 6-2

1999  -Playoffs and a playoff win, almost Championship game

2005 - playoffs won the east

2007 - playoffs, but somewhat slow start rally after the tragedy

2012 - playoffs rally after 3-6 start

2016 - playoffs rally after OT win

2017 - 6-2 or 6-3 start

2018 - 6-2 start

2020 - playoffs

2021 - 6-6

 

The main thing is that we have had mediocre teams throughout the years but the years we could get above competent QB play, we were threats to make the playoffs. And that's what we saw in those years. Even last year we were right in it until the COVID hit and the Sweat situation and the Everett situation, not to mention the injuries. 

 

I say that Wentz will give us at least competent QB play (better than Ferrotte / Brad Johnson / Brunell / Campbell / Alex / Heinicke) and if he does we're in the playoffs. if he gives us anything comparable to Kirk or RG3, we're a SB threat. 

[Zim489]

5 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

SB threat. 

 

Hard disagree here. Maybe with 2012 RG3 level play as he was getting some murmurs of MVP talk. The roster just isnt there. 

[Llevron]

I hope for our sake Colt McCoy isn't better than Wentz. 

 

I don't see how anyone can even part their lips to say such nonsense. But if he is..........mannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

[evmiii]

I fully expect Carson to be serviceable and an upgrade to what we have had at the position for the last several years, but we are several big steps away from being a Super Bowl threat.  The back 7 of the defense still remains suspect and very shallow.  We will be as good as our defense allows this year, Carson will not be our limiting factor.

[samy316]

9 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I say that Wentz will give us at least competent QB play (better than Ferrotte / Brad Johnson / Brunell / Campbell / Alex / Heinicke) and if he does we're in the playoffs. if he gives us anything comparable to Kirk or RG3, we're a SB threat. 

 

Woah, slow down there champ.  This team is NOT a SB threat under any circumstance.  Our roster is just about average at best, and our QB can be described as also average at best.  The only QB's that could take this team to a SB are Mahommes, Brady or Rodgers.  Wentz is NOWHERE near those guys in terms of talent and accomplishments.  Could he get us to the playoffs as a wild card or a division winner?  Maybe, but I doubt it.  SB is ludacris.

[Thinking Skins]

3 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

 

Hard disagree here. Maybe with 2012 RG3 level play as he was getting some murmurs of MVP talk. The roster just isnt there. 

Yeah, I'm not predicting it and its very unlikely. But what happens is that basically this would mean that Wentz is making the team better. Suddenly we're playing with leads which opens up the running game and the pass rush. We can throw it to the weapons more because the offense is unpredictable. The other team is trying to score more so tehy're more likely to make mistakes and we might be able to capitalize like with turnovers. These are teh small things that lead to big things. 

[Thinking Skins]

4 minutes ago, samy316 said:

 

Woah, slow down there champ.  This team is NOT a SB threat under any circumstance.  Our roster is just about average at best, and our QB can be described as also average at best.  The only QB's that could take this team to a SB are Mahommes, Brady or Rodgers.  Wentz is NOWHERE near those guys in terms of talent and accomplishments.  Could he get us to the playoffs as a wild card or a division winner?  Maybe, but I doubt it.  SB is ludacris.

Again, I'm not predicting this as too much would have to go right for this to happen but weirder things have happened. I'm just saying that if he has a Kirk year this team can go far. We can compete with some of the top teams in the NFC and I don't believe in GB. But I'm thinking that Wentz gives us competente QB play but not anything on this level. When I say Kirk level, I'm saying 5000 yards and 70% completions. I'm not expecting near that. I'm thinking he may get 4000 and 65% and those would be a good (great) numbers. 

[Cooleyfan1993]

19 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I was talking about the starts in particular. 

 

2016 - playoffs rally after OT win

2017 - 6-2 or 6-3 start

2016:  if you’re referring to the week 3 game @ Giants, I don’t think that was an OT win. (Guessing that’s the game you’re thinking of cause the only OT game we had was the London game which was a tie)

 

2017: we were 100% NOT 6-2 OR 6-3 that year. We went 0-1, 1-1, 2-1, 2-2, 3-2, 3-3, 3-4, 4-4, before dropping two in a row to fall to 4-6. 

 

 

[Thinking Skins]

1 minute ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

2016:  if you’re referring to the week 3 game @ Giants, I don’t think that was an OT win. (Guessing that’s the game you’re thinking of cause the only OT game we had was the London game which was a tie)

 

2017: we were 100% NOT 6-2 OR 6-3 that year. We went 0-1, 1-1, 2-1, 2-2, 3-2, 3-3, 3-4, 4-4, before dropping two in a row to fall to 4-6. 

 

 

Sorry it was 2015 and 2016. and the OT win was against the Falcons. 

[Cooleyfan1993]

5 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Sorry it was 2015 and 2016. and the OT win was against the Falcons. 

2015 Vs falcons was OT, yes, but we LOST that, 25-19 (a Kirk cousins pick-6 I believe)
 

2016 was 6-3-1, so I’ll give you that one  

Edited September 7, 2022 by Cooleyfan1993

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, Zim489 said:

The drafts. First draft comes down to chase being the player he can be. If he doesnt its a big miss of a draft. 2021 they swung for ceilings which I love but havent hit. The 2022 draft was clearly about ceiling on the back burner in favor of immediate contribution. I personally feel thats the biggest sin a FO can make. Playing for the moment with the draft ultimately leads to a lack of talent over time. The lack of aggression in talent acquisition overall. The Carolina North aspect to nearly every single player they have acquired. The general roster building more akin to winning 2005 football opposed to 2022. 

 

But for the second part of your question. I really hate this years draft. Outside of Mathis I dont hate any of the players overall. (Mathis is a run stuffing DT in a game where run defense means little. If you want better run defense, score more points and then teams run less against you). Its just the value wasnt there for all of them. A first round WR I expect to compete for among the best in the league. I personally see zero chance of that happening. The amount of successful WRs weighed under 180 at the combine you can count on one hand. Hes not elite in his hips or his top speed. Hes better suited as a Y or Z. Problem is that were forcing Terry to be our X when I feel hes personally best at the Y. Team lacks a true X WR. Jahan can not play there. It really sucks missing out on London. Would have diversified the position so much with Cam being our only big body and hes nothing but a Jag. 

 

Hate the Mathis pick on every single level. Arsonist putting out a fire situation at a devalued aspect of the game. Complete Boomer FO move here.

 

BRob. 3rd round RB is another archaic move for an archaic FO. Its also a fix to a "failure" of a previous archaic move in Gibson. You can find RBs anywhere in the draft. Using 2 3rd rounders in 3 years for a devalued position that shouldnt be resigned regardless of success is just bad. RBs rarely should be resigned unless you can get them on the cheap. Good workhorses dont sign for cheap. Paying them is also bad for cap management due to the ease of replaceability.  

 

Beyond that it gets down to just hoping you hit on rolls of the dice. Howell is good "value". I say that because I had him more of a 3rd rounder. But the position is changing. If he turns out to be decent it doesnt really do much for you and is better used as trade bait to get some day 2 picks from some one. 

 

The only pick I liked was Cole Turner. 7 of the top 10 TEs in the league have RAS' over 9. 8/10 over 8. 9/10 over 7. Its the single easiest position in football to determine if a guy is going to be elite or not. The staff thankfully picked a guy with a good RAS score. That shows thankfully some analytical insight. I read early in the year that the league and/or agents (cant remember which) said that this staff is among the least believing in analytics. Not surprising when you hear many other sources claiming that this group is very old school. 

 

Ultimately I think its fairly easy to get a bad team to battle for the 500 mark. It takes a lot to take that same team from the decent place to good/great. Mostly relies on the QB spot but as we saw in Detroit with stafford that you need more than just a good QB. You need great talent across the roster. Not saying that you need a Pro bowl player at every position. Thats fantasy land but you want 2-3 on defense and 2-3 on offense that are in argument for top 5-10 at their position. Namely at the high impact ones of LT Edge CB WR. The game changers. I feel this staff is content with building a decent roster and hoping to get lucky with a Giants like run. Its possible but the odds arent something I want them to chase and hope for.

 

It all starts and ends with QB. If you dont have a great one no other move matters. I dont think they understood that from the first year. I think Dan pushed Ron to give Dwayne a chance and I can see Ron agreeing with that before ever putting pen to paper on the contract. I would have assumed that Dan was an idiot and that it wouldnt have worked out and immediately attacked with positioning yourself for the 2021 draft. Every single move should have been met with "will this get us a QB next year" You already knew that if healthy, TL was going to be 1.1. Every single move would have been how do we ensure getting one of the top guys in the draft. Hell we had 1.2 mid way through November.

 

I think he missed his window and now were stuck firmly in the middle where the roster is too good to blow up under Ron. Its also not good enough to do any real damage in the playoffs. Were IMO firmly 3rd in the division which means at best competing for the 7th seed in the conference with the honor of getting blown out in LA GB or SF. Were going to have to get lucky by getting the 3rd or 4th option in a draft. Not out of the question but I dont have trust in this collection of decision makers or coaching staff sans Zampese to get it right. Their collective history is not good. Im also terrifed of the 2023 offseason when we miss the playoffs again with a possible losing record and Ron feeling desperate entering his 4th of 5th year. Throwing an RG3 level trade to move up for a QB just to have said rookie qb struggle because thats what rookie QBs do. Then you have 4 years of bad football under Ron. Cant extend him. FedEx would be even more of a ghost town. The fanbase would want nothing to do with HC that has full control and cant accomplish anything but hope to get a wild card spot. He wont coach on a lame duck contract because only 1 HC in recent memory has done that. So at that point we have to find a new HC/GM and who the hell wants to come here and do that after the previous staff just traded away picks and youre now stuck with the previous staffs QB pick. Its just repeating the the Mike into Jay transition all over again. It would be an utter disaster. A Zorn level hire would happen. Essentially because of the mistakes of 2020 offseason were now staring at 8 years of mediocrity at best. 

 

What I think is weird here and else where in Commander land is that being mediocre seems to be ok to many. They often bring up the record over the last 20 years where were among the worst in the league but they never really dig deep into why. This team is ALWAYS mediocre. Thats the problem. They almost always end up in the middle of the pack drafting in the 11-15 spot of the draft. Occasionally in the top 10. Rarely top 5. Occasionally in the 18-22 range in the rare year they actually make the playoffs. Im just tired of the lack of coherent multi year plan. 

 

I think you are locked into some thoughts about Ron from the Carolina days that don't extend to today's version of him.

 

It strikes me as believing is seeing because its very easy to counter most of your points.

 

A.  The emphasis on DT stuffing the run, you mention and how its old school.  In three years, Ron drafts one DT in 2nd round, that's basically it.  Spends really no money on the spot in FA.  Dumps Ionnadis.  Lets Settle go for peanuts in FA.  And supposely he's not willing to give a big contract to Payne.  It's actually easier to argue he demphasized the spot versus overemphasized it.  

 

B.  Sticking to this as a theme, passing defense versus run defense.  Two of his biggest FA signings have been for corners.

 

C.  Passing game versus running game.   With your thought he's more old school and into the running game.  One of his biggest FA signings was for a WR and the previous year he was willing to give 20 million plus for Cooper.  Not for a RB but for WRs.    He drafts a WR in the 4th round or above in every draft including using his first rounder on WR this draft.  Spending 2 3rd rounders isn't more of an emphasis than what they've done for the passing game not even close.

 

D.  At QB.   Your thought seems to be Fields is the next Mahomes and Rivera not willing to trade an RG3 level haul for him is a fatal mistake.  Coming from one of the bigger Fields fans before that draft, I still think you are putting the cart before the horse.  Lets see if Fields is a franchise changing QB before annoiting him.   they swung for Stafford.  Swung for Russell Wilson.  Landed Wentz.  And drafted Howell.  To say that Rivera is sleeping at the wheel and isn't a believer in QBs drive this league -- you'd have to both ignore his rhetoric and actions.  We've not under Danny had a coach more open about needing a QB and also one who hasn't swung this much and hard at QB than Rivera.  

 

E.  As for Carolina.  He inherited an awful team.  He had a winning record.  He went to the playoffs 4 times, and made the SB.  You act like him having Cam negates that.  And him struggiling without Cam is damning.  But what head coach can you think of that consistenly thrives with "meh" QB play?  

 

And as far as old school, Carolina was seen as innovators with Cam.  They preceded our 2012 offense as far as the heavy zone read, etc.

 

He did things there that no coach has done under Dan including 3 playoff wins, SB appearance, 3 times winining over 10 games, twice coach of the year. 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

56 minutes ago, Llevron said:

I hope for our sake Colt McCoy isn't better than Wentz. 

 

I don't see how anyone can even part their lips to say such nonsense. But if he is..........mannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

He just went on IR, so at least this year he won't be. 

[Cooleyfan1993]

3 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

He just went on IR, so at least this year he won't be. 

Colt McCoy did? When did he get injured? 
 

ah, arm issue during most of TC. Out at least first 4. 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Cooleyfan1993

[Skinsinparadise]

Underhyped?  I am waiting for the tweets coming soon that the Eagles are a dynasty team in the making -- the media is in love with the Eagles let alone them being underhyped.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Llevron]

9 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

He just went on IR, so at least this year he won't be. 

 

I take my small victories where I can lol 

 

(im not happy he is hurt for anyone upset, just kidding) 

[Skinsinparadise]

What next Wentz isn't even good enough for the Canadian league?

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Llevron]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Underhyped?  I am waiting for the tweets coming soon that the Eagles are a dynasty team in the making -- the media is in love with the Eagles let alone them being underhyped.

 

 

 

 

how in the world could someone consider the eagles UNDER hyped? My goodness. 

[CommanderCarson]

Is it fair to wonder if Irsay paid the national media? 

[Captain Wiggles]

538s equation is broken. Kurt Kousins ahead of Joe Burrow. 🤪👌

[Bifflog]

Ah we clearly missed out on Mitch Trubisky, nearly a top 10 guy!

 

What suckers the Broncos are...