The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Voice_of_Reason]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Spending all those resources on the defense yet it sucks. They are ranked now dead last on points given up. And taking a good o line and dismantling it to make it a bad one .

 

That’s Ron’s legacy with personnel 

 

And 

 

 

EDIT: My animated GIFs are not working!!!!  THE HORROR!!!

Edited November 20, 2023 by Voice_of_Reason

[Skinsinparadise]

Keep forgetting that McCarthy could go high 

 

 

[Going Commando]

There is no such thing as being "the guy" as a first year starting QB for a team whose entire FO and coaching staff is about to get replaced.  Sam's best case scenario was having the team win enough games to keep this regime in place.  That's over.  His next best outcome is to audition well enough and have the cost to move up for better prospects than him be so prohibitive that the next regime just stands pat.  But at this rate, we're going to be drafting top ten, and one of either Maye or Williams can be in range for a trade up.  And the Rivera regime helpfully stocked the cupboard for that kind of trade up, plus Sam himself has played well enough to bring something back in trade.  It's on the table now, and it's also probably going to be the best shot the next regime gets at drafting a blue chip QB.

[Thinking Skins]

Taking off my pro Howell, pro EB hat here far a second and thinking about things historically. I'm thinking about Nick Foles. He started off hot on Philly under Chip Kelly and Andy Reid had a stretch of 3 hundred yards games. Had a 27-2 TD-Int ratio. That looked like he was it. On top of that the locker room loved him. Then Philly traded him to STL. And drafted Wentz. 

 

His career has not been that good sense then so they made the right decision other that resigning him as a backup and him getting a ring and MVP.

 

But I wonder how much of Foles's success was because of Kelly or the systems of Reid or Peterson or moreso Philly. And then I wonder if that could apply to Howell. We saw Carr do poorly in McVay's system and great in Johnson's. I worry about Howell for this. 

[method man]

10 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Taking off my pro Howell, pro EB hat here far a second and thinking about things historically. I'm thinking about Nick Foles. He started off hot on Philly under Chip Kelly and Andy Reid had a stretch of 3 hundred yards games. Had a 27-2 TD-Int ratio. That looked like he was it. On top of that the locker room loved him. Then Philly traded him to STL. And drafted Wentz. 

 

His career has not been that good sense then so they made the right decision other that resigning him as a backup and him getting a ring and MVP.

 

But I wonder how much of Foles's success was because of Kelly or the systems of Reid or Peterson or moreso Philly. And then I wonder if that could apply to Howell. We saw Carr do poorly in McVay's system and great in Johnson's. I worry about Howell for this. 

 

This is one of the many reasons I want Ben Johnson. He has a reputation of thinking "he knows nothing" and takes a lot of feedback from those around him. Read about his working relationship with Goff. What's interesting about BJ is that he has played under a lot of coaches and, as a result, scene a lot of different schemes. McVay has been in some version of the WCO his entire career

[Thinking Skins]

17 minutes ago, method man said:

 

This is one of the many reasons I want Ben Johnson. He has a reputation of thinking "he knows nothing" and takes a lot of feedback from those around him. Read about his working relationship with Goff. What's interesting about BJ is that he has played under a lot of coaches and, as a result, scene a lot of different schemes. McVay has been in some version of the WCO his entire career

The thing that frustrated me about EB. He let go of the OL coach when we knew we had a hole there. I want a coach who will do what Kyle did and bring people together to serve argue him down, not just agree with him. I fear that Commanders Park is just an agreement park right now. 

[illone]

5 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I really want to see Howell with 2 things:

 

1. An OL that isn't pushed backwards immediately.  And one which is better coached.  Because something's not right with the coaching (Position coaching specifically) there.  They got rid of Masko, couldn't hire a replacement, and it's been way too many people not knowing what they are doing.

 

2. A defense which isn't a threat to give up 40 points every game.  

 

 

I agree.

 

I'll add a third thing to the wish list:

 

3. A consistent running game.

 

Can you imagine Sam with a real play-action?

 

Brob had his best day as a pro yesterday, I want to see MORE of that. We've proven this kid can drop back and throw it around all day, now let's see what he can do with a more balanced approach.

[Going Commando]

Daniel Jones has a 69 million dollar cap hit for cutting him next year, and a 47 million dollar cap hit overall for the season.  I don't think it's a lock the Giants go QB with their first round pick.

 

Kyler Murray also has a 52 million dollar cap hit next year, and it would be an 81 million cap hit to cut him.  I don't think the Cardinals will go QB in the top five either.

 

And then the Bears will likely have two top five picks and they obviously won't draft two QBs.

 

That's three spots in the current top five that will likely be open for business on a QB trade.

[Renegade7]

The most Redskin thing possible would be trading Howell because we have a high enough pick to draft someone else that might be better. 

 

110% Howell prospers elsewhere and we end up with a bust.

 

This is NOT a problem that needs the solution jus because we might finally have the ammo to.  We need a whole new oline, NOT a new QB.

 

This entire debate is revolving around folks getting greedy.  As sure as folks were here Young was a HOF'r and we should pass on any QB prospects to take him instead it's obvious many have learned absolutely nothing from that.  It's groundhog day in a different timezone.

[Daniel.redskins]

Conversation is getting crazy. The new regime is not trading assets to move up. Team has too many weaknesses. 

 

Williams or Maye are not sure thing prospects. We will probably win one more game and pick around 6-7. If they like Nix, then fine. Smart move would be to take a franchise LT. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

18 minutes ago, illone said:

 

 

I agree.

 

I'll add a third thing to the wish list:

 

3. A consistent running game.

 

Can you imagine Sam with a real play-action?

 

Brob had his best day as a pro yesterday, I want to see MORE of that. We've proven this kid can drop back and throw it around all day, now let's see what he can do with a more balanced approach.

I hate the running game so I don’t really care about that at all.  

 

Also, every analytic creates says you don’t need a good running game for play action to work.  
 

What you need is for the play to be executed correctly, with the OL selling run, the QB and RB carrying out the fake appropriately.  We don’t execute play action well either.  That’s entirely on coaching and more the position coaches than the coordinator.  
 

I’m like the only person who loves the 70/30 run/pass ratio.  We ran altogether too much against the Giants and it threw off the rhythm of the pass game.  And then we didn’t even transition it to PA shots.  
 

I would like them to run better.  But not more.  And that’s a function of the OL being suck. And Gibson having the propensity to run into his own guys or into contact instead of cutting for the hole.  Robinson also but to a lesser degree. 

[Llevron]

1 hour ago, method man said:

 

This is one of the many reasons I want Ben Johnson. He has a reputation of thinking "he knows nothing" and takes a lot of feedback from those around him. Read about his working relationship with Goff. What's interesting about BJ is that he has played under a lot of coaches and, as a result, scene a lot of different schemes. McVay has been in some version of the WCO his entire career

Imo the best leaders “Know nothing” and take the feedback from everyone….knowing when to implement an idea. That’s a big plus for me I didn’t know that about him. 

[Rufus T Firefly]

19 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

Daniel Jones has a 69 million dollar cap hit for cutting him next year, and a 47 million dollar cap hit overall for the season.  I don't think it's a lock the Giants go QB with their first round pick.

 

Kyler Murray also has a 52 million dollar cap hit next year, and it would be an 81 million cap hit to cut him.  I don't think the Cardinals will go QB in the top five either.

 

And then the Bears will likely have two top five picks and they obviously won't draft two QBs.

 

That's three spots in the current top five that will likely be open for business on a QB trade.

The Giants have a smart GM. If he has a top 2 pick he'll take Maye or Williams. If they don't have a top 2 pick they'll likely find another guy they would draft. That organization is too smart to anchor themselves with Jones because they're worried about his cap hit. 

 

Arizona will certainly take Williams. I'd guess they take Maye too. 

 

In either case, they have an expensive backup for one year unless a desperate team takes enough salary off their hands to move one of them right away. 

 

It's when we get to the third QB that those questions come up. I just don't know that Penix, Nix, McCarthy or Daniels moves teams to reverse course. And some teams could decide to move down or draft a top prospect at another position and move for a QB later.  

[Skinsinparadise]

This trade up for Drake and Caleb, i don't get why it has traction as a serious debate.  I'd get it if its about what if we pick 1 or 2  or on the chance the Bears end up with both 1 or 2 but otherwise it feels like a full blown fantasy.   

 

if these prospects are considered as good as their billing, there is a better chance me, @KDawg or @Koolblue13 or name that person here are the next QB versus the Bears (if they don't end up with 2), Cards, Pats, Giants, trade away those picks. 

 

Typically the idea of trading off QB prospects that are considered special borderline can't miss is non existent because its so rare to have an opportunity to get QB prospects on that level so when you have that rare chance you pounce and take the player.  But here we are debating teams doing things that are somewhat unprecedented.  

[method man]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

This trade up for Drake and Caleb, i don't get why it has traction as a serious debate.  I'd get it if its about what if we pick 1 or 2  or on the chance the Bears end up with both 1 or 2 but otherwise it feels like a full blown fantasy.   

 

if these prospects are considered as good as their billing, there is a better chance me, @KDawg or @Koolblue13 or name that person here are the next QB versus the Bears (if they don't end up with 2), Cards, Pats, Giants, trade away those picks. 

 

Typically the idea of trading off QB prospects that are considered special borderline can't miss is non existent because its so rare to have an opportunity to get QB prospects on that level so when you have that rare chance you pounce and take the player.  But here we are debating teams doing things that are somewhat unprecedented.  

 

Besides the two Eagles games, the Giants' schedule is soft the rest of the year and, as we all saw, the coaching staff and team is going for it as jobs may be on the line. Let's hope Tyrod gets back soon and they can squeeze out a couple more wins

[Skinsinparadise]

33 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

The Giants have a smart GM. If he has a top 2 pick he'll take Maye or Williams. If they don't have a top 2 pick they'll likely find another guy they would draft. That organization is too smart to anchor themselves with Jones because they're worried about his cap hit. 

 

Arizona will certainly take Williams. I'd guess they take Maye too. 

 

In either case, they have an expensive backup for one year unless a desperate team takes enough salary off their hands to move one of them right away. 

 

It's when we get to the third QB that those questions come up. I just don't know that Penix, Nix, McCarthy or Daniels moves teams to reverse course. And some teams could decide to move down or draft a top prospect at another position and move for a QB later.  

 

Yep.  

 

Giants just sent an army to go see Drake Maye play, it was all over twitter.  Jones has an out in his contract after next year.  NY reporters say they are all in on getting a QB.

 

ditto the Cards.  Murray is seen as petulant, a poor leader and injury prone.  All the noise about Arizona is they also go QB.

 

Will see.  But I think the idea that teams are trading away Caleb and Maye is much more about wish casting then reality.

 

If we want to debate those two, I'd wait a few weeks to see if we have a shot to have top 2 picks.  I think no doubt on the off chance we pick 1 or 2, we'd take those QBs for the same reason that the ones who end up with those picks won't trade them away. 

 

23 minutes ago, method man said:

 

Besides the two Eagles games, the Giants' schedule is soft the rest of the year and, as we all saw, the coaching staff and team is going for it as jobs may be on the line. Let's hope Tyrod gets back soon and they can squeeze out a couple more wins

 

Yeah ironically I was just looking at their schedule with my son.  they got the Pats and Rams at home.  What scares me is they got 6 turnovers from us and still almost lost.  You got to put some real stinkers to lose to the Giants right now.  But agree if Taylor comes back they'd be better.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Rufus T Firefly]

32 minutes ago, Llevron said:

Imo the best leaders “Know nothing” 

[illone]

39 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I hate the running game so I don’t really care about that at all.  

 

Also, every analytic creates says you don’t need a good running game for play action to work.  
 

What you need is for the play to be executed correctly, with the OL selling run, the QB and RB carrying out the fake appropriately.  We don’t execute play action well either.  That’s entirely on coaching and more the position coaches than the coordinator.  
 

I’m like the only person who loves the 70/30 run/pass ratio.  We ran altogether too much against the Giants and it threw off the rhythm of the pass game.  And then we didn’t even transition it to PA shots.  
 

I would like them to run better.  But not more.  And that’s a function of the OL being suck. And Gibson having the propensity to run into his own guys or into contact instead of cutting for the hole.  Robinson also but to a lesser degree. 

 

 

Thats sacrilege for a fan of this team to be against the running game.

 

Isnt it?

 

😆

 

I dont think Sunday is the best argument to abandon the run game, or stick with the 70% pass script.  6 turnovers put a slight crimp to analyze that fully.

 

I hear you about running better though, probably synonymous with "consistent" so maybe we are saying the same thing here.

 

All I know is Brian Robinson is a beast, he might be our best player on offense.  I'd probably be more upset if the team got rid of him than I would if Howell was traded or cut. 

 

One thing I will say on this, modern NFL be damned, I want to see more power running plays. Whatever it takes to get those linebackers to cheat up to give Sam some huge passing windows, like what we saw in 2012 when RG3 was throwing ducks to wide open players.

[kingdaddy]

3 hours ago, Going Commando said:

That's three spots in the current top five that will likely be open for business on a QB trade.

Great point! I like Sam....A LOT....but I'm no QB scout or coach. What if we end up with the 7th pick overall and feel like we can get one of the top QB's in the draft with a trade up that maybe includes Sam in the deal??????

Things are starting to get dicey in DC with the possibilities? Add in the fact that Sam has had no offensive line and it gets harder.....how often do you get to pick as high as we're gonna? You cant blow those picks like we did with Chase Young.

[Warhead36]

Giants can get out of the Jones deal after 2024. They'll likely draft a QB and let Jones start one more year while the rook learns.

 

Not sure what the Cards do with Murray. He's looked since coming back from injury, but that could also means he has trade value around the league.

[illone]

16 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Giants can get out of the Jones deal after 2024. They'll likely draft a QB and let Jones start one more year while the rook learns.

 

Not sure what the Cards do with Murray. He's looked since coming back from injury, but that could also means he has trade value around the league.

 

I'd pass on Murray, huge contract isnt worth it.

[TheItalianStallion]

There were a bunch of 1st and 2nd down plays against the NYG when a back or TE was wide open underneath for what would've set up a manageable down and distance (if not pick up a 1st), but Howell didn't see them. He has made a lot of progress, and he isn't getting much help from his OL, but Howell still has some work to do. I think people are being too hard on the WRs; I'm betting that more opportunities for them will open up once Howell becomes more consistent about hitting his outlet when it's open.

[Skinsinparadise]

As far as the Cards

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/insider/story/_/id/38564261/kyler-murray-cardinals-quarterback-future-trade-contract-draft

 

...The outside speculation -- the word I get when talking to agents and executives from other teams -- is that the Cardinals likely will move on after this season.

 

...There were the occasional reports about the team wanting him to be more mature and more of a leader. There was the bizarre clause in the original version of his contract extension in 2022 that allowed the team to void his guarantees if he didn't do four hours of independent film study per week. That clause was eventually taken out of the contract after news of its existence became public and both sides were rightfully ridiculed for its inclusion, but the fact it was ever a thing in the first place indicates the team had concerns about committing to Murray long term and was interested in building an off-ramp.

 

...Trading Murray would presumably land them other valuable picks that would help in that effort, as well as the larger effort to rebuild around whomever they have at QB. If they decide to move on from him, they'll likely be in a position to convince themselves they have a strong alternative.

 

...Murray is scheduled to earn an average of $39.34 million per year from 2024 through '28. It's not considered high-end QB money anymore -- Joe Burrow averages $55 million per year on his new deal -- but it's certainly a lot more than the Cardinals would have to pay Williams, Maye or any other QB on a rookie contract.

Add together the injury, the history of concerns the team has had about Murray, the contract and the draft capital stockpile, and it's certainly possible to conclude the Cardinals would be better off hitting the reset button and moving on from Murray to another option.

 

...The other (cheaper) option would be to trade Murray, which would result in a $46.2 million dead-money charge on their 2024 cap but leave them free and clear after that (and also save them $35.3 million in 2024 cash, which in many cases matters more to teams than cap charges).

Edited November 21, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

13 hours ago, Going Commando said:

Daniel Jones has a 69 million dollar cap hit for cutting him next year, and a 47 million dollar cap hit overall for the season.  I don't think it's a lock the Giants go QB with their first round pick.

 

Kyler Murray also has a 52 million dollar cap hit next year, and it would be an 81 million cap hit to cut him.  I don't think the Cardinals will go QB in the top five either.

 

And then the Bears will likely have two top five picks and they obviously won't draft two QBs.

 

That's three spots in the current top five that will likely be open for business on a QB trade.

 

The Giants had the most scouts last week, more than any other team at Drake Maye's game.  Schoen has been personally going and watching these QBs.   It's all over the NY media.  I read their sports pages everyday.  I was at the game on Sunday, there was a Giants fan behind me and that's all he wanted to take about.  Those 2 QBs and how the Giants were ruining it by winning that game.

 

Now if the Giants end up picking after 1 or 2, that's a different story.  Then I think its up in the air, Daniels, Penix, McCarthty or running it back with Daniel Jones?

 

Even if Schoen is just pretending to be into Caleb and Drake --  and head fakes that interest.  Daniel Jones is back to being a punchline in NY.  He wouldn't surivive the politics of passing over potentially a great QB to double down on Daniel Jones, Schoen would turn himself into being a punchline himself.  Their fans and media would likely instantly lampoon Schoen.

 

They aren't going to telegraph out loud that they plan to move on from Jones because what if they don't land a top 2 pick?  That would be awkward to deal with Jones in that context.  But all their actions and news leaks indicate they are all in on Caleb or Drake.

 

But like Washington or any other team I have no thoughts about them trading up because I don't expect their picks to be auctioned. So we just need to root for them to pick after #2.    I am rooting for #4 because I don't want to see Harrison there.

 

https://heavy.com/sports/new-york-giants/drake-maye-scouts-draft-daniel-jones/

 

As Dan Duggan of The Athletic noted, it’s not yet known if the Giants group is comprised of general manager Joe Schoen, assistant GM Brandon Brown and director of player personnel Tim McDonnell. This quartet has already personally scouted one of the top passers in this draft class, USC’s Caleb Williams.

Whether the top brass attended Maye’s latest outing or not, the number of talent evaluators representing the Giants is significant. It adds credibility to the idea the Giants will draft a quarterback

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/giants/draft/caleb-williams-or-drake-maye

 

 

That’s the main reason that, while I hate the Daniel Jones contract, it’s a contract that I can live with. There would be a solid cap hit, but the Giants can draft a quarterback in the 2024 draft with the intention of parting ways with Jones after the season.

The Giants could immediately go to the rookie, or they could let Jones start until they feel the rookie is ready or has a better-supporting cast. If Jones does start in 2024 over a rookie, he could perhaps increase his value for a team, maybe looking for a veteran option in 2025.

With Jones dealing with a plethora of injuries in recent years on top of him being an average quarterback at best, there’s no reason for the Giants not to look at taking a quarterback

 

13 hours ago, Going Commando said:

Daniel Jones has a 69 million dollar cap hit for cutting him next year, and a 47 million dollar cap hit overall for the season.  I don't think it's a lock the Giants go QB with their first round pick.

 

Kyler Murray also has a 52 million dollar cap hit next year, and it would be an 81 million cap hit to cut him.  I don't think the Cardinals will go QB in the top five either.

 

And then the Bears will likely have two top five picks and they obviously won't draft two QBs.

 

That's three spots in the current top five that will likely be open for business on a QB trade.

 

I'd say somewhere between 0-1% chance the Giants auction their pick

 

I'd say somewhere between 0-1% chance the Cardinals auction their pick

 

With the teams right now in the top 8 of the draft, removing us.  The only likely shot is if the Bears end up with #1 and #2.  So for the Caleb discussion, to me its ALL about the Bears losing, nothing else smacks me as having any reality.  Only other long shot is if Kyler Murray just kills it in the home stretch where the Cards brass has to think twice, but if that happens, I don't see how the Cards will have that top 2 pick.

 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[DWinzit]

10 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The Giants had the most scouts last week, more than any other team at Drake Maye's game.  Schoen has been personally going and watching these QBs.   It's all about the NY media.  I read their sports pages everyday.  I was at the game on Sunday, there was a Giants fan behind me and that's all he wanted to take about.  Those 2 QBs and how the Giants were ruining it by winning that game.

 

Now if the Giants end up picking after 1 or 2, that's a different story.  Then I think its up in the air, Daniels, Penix, McCarthty or running it back with Daniel Jones?

 

Even if Schoen is just pretending to be into Caleb and Drake --  and head fakes that interest.  Daniel Jones is back to being a punchline in NY.  He wouldn't surivive the politicis of passing over potentially a great QB to double down on Daniel Jones, Schoen would turn himself into being a punchline himself.  Their fans and media would likely instantly lampoon Schoen.

 

They aren't going to telegraph out loud that they plan to move on from Jones because what if they don't land a top 2 pick?  That would be awkward to deal with Jones in that context.  But all their actions and news leaks indicate they are all in on Caleb or Drake.

 

But like Washington or any other team I have no thoughts about them trading up because I don't expect their picks to be auctioned. So we just need to root for them to pick after #2.    I am rooting for #4 because I don't want to see Harrison there.

 

https://heavy.com/sports/new-york-giants/drake-maye-scouts-draft-daniel-jones/

 

As Dan Duggan of The Athletic noted, it’s not yet known if the Giants group is comprised of general manager Joe Schoen, assistant GM Brandon Brown and director of player personnel Tim McDonnell. This quartet has already personally scouted one of the top passers in this draft class, USC’s Caleb Williams.

Whether the top brass attended Maye’s latest outing or not, the number of talent evaluators representing the Giants is significant. It adds credibility to the idea the Giants will draft a quarterback

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/giants/draft/caleb-williams-or-drake-maye

 

 

That’s the main reason that, while I hate the Daniel Jones contract, it’s a contract that I can live with. There would be a solid cap hit, but the Giants can draft a quarterback in the 2024 draft with the intention of parting ways with Jones after the season.

The Giants could immediately go to the rookie, or they could let Jones start until they feel the rookie is ready or has a better-supporting cast. If Jones does start in 2024 over a rookie, he could perhaps increase his value for a team, maybe looking for a veteran option in 2025.

With Jones dealing with a plethora of injuries in recent years on top of him being an average quarterback at best, there’s no reason for the Giants not to look at taking a quarterback

I figure the Giants will absolutely draft a QB. It will just be a question of which one and where as they will be able to move around the board depending on who they like.

 

They will be fine eating Jones cap hit for one year. I am certain they wish they never made the deal but it seemed right at he time. 

 

Although...they do have Devito who looked like Joe Montana last week lol