The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Riggo#44]

4 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Ron doesn’t appear to care one iota about having to cross that field and shake hands with coaches who laugh at what he’s built.

 

I defended Rivera for a while, given what he had to work with. Now free of Snyder, he's somehow worse. This is a damning indictment of what we have here.

[Llevron]

 

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I get that, but he previously struck me as a man with integrity, dignity and pride.  

 

This what they mean when they say a man is a shell of his former self. You can see it in the eyes every week. I hate to say it honestly. Feels like im punching down. But you can see it. 

[srtman04]

Back to Sam.   I still believe he has all of the physical and mental tools to be more than successful in the NFL.   He has the potential to be great IMHO.   All he needs is a complete team around him and a new coaching staff that will drive the excellence out of him.    

[Riggo#44]

Just now, Llevron said:

 

 

This what they mean when they say a man is a shell of his former self. You can see it in the eyes every week. I hate to say it honestly. Feels like im punching down. But you can see it. 

 

I think mentally, physically, emotionally he's done. He's had to deal with a lot of ****, on and off the field. He's done.

[Llevron]

Just now, Riggo#44 said:

 

I defended Rivera for a while, given what he had to work with. Now free of Snyder, he's somehow worse. This is a damning indictment of what we have here.

 

I mean realistically we all knew he would never be the guy here. But he was the best we could do in the situation we were in. He has known the end was coming for the last 2 years at least. Its hard to go to work everyday watching your career come to an end and knowing there is nothing you could have done anyway. 

[Llevron]

1 minute ago, srtman04 said:

Back to Sam.   I still believe he has all of the physical and mental tools to be more than successful in the NFL.   He has the potential to be great IMHO.   All he needs is a complete team around him and a new coaching staff that will drive the excellence out of him.    

 

I think it should go without saying that if you think the team around him and the coaching staff around him are below average then you have to look at what he has done well and wonder how GOOD coaching and talent around him would help. 

 

Paired with that I don't know how anyone could look at this current situation and call it good coaching and talent around him. Even the biggest of EB fans (me) cant argue that he is above reproach. 

 

All that together means it makes sense to think that you can build around this guy, coaches and players, and see if he gets better at what he has already shown. And if not then find someone else. 

 

 

ALL THAT SAID -- we might be in striking distance of the top of what I guess some people are calling a talented QB draft? Close in enough to sell out on a guy if you love him. Gonna be very interesting times. I don't know what I would do personally. 

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I get that, but he previously struck me as a man with integrity, dignity and pride.  

Me too. I got no respect for his checked out approach. 
 

Aside from coming off not caring, it seems like he doesn’t do much 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Llevron said:

 

I think it should go without saying that if you think the team around him and the coaching staff around him are below average then you have to look at what he has done well and wonder how GOOD coaching and talent around him would help. 

 

Paired with that I don't know how anyone could look at this current situation and call it good coaching and talent around him. Even the biggest of EB fans (me) cant argue that he is above reproach. 

 

All that together means it makes sense to think that you can build around this guy, coaches and players, and see if he gets better at what he has already shown. And if not then find someone else. 

 

 

ALL THAT SAID -- we might be in striking distance of the top of what I guess some people are calling a talented QB draft? Close in enough to sell out on a guy if you love him. Gonna be very interesting times. I don't know what I would do personally. 

The last paragraph always sounds great, but they’ve had some real stinkers this year… what happens when you draft one top 5 and they aren’t as good as Howell? You wasted a one. You can recover but it’s another year without helping the QB.

 

We may need a QB long term. We may not. No way to know in the current set up… but here is what I do know: We need to surround whoever is there with talent and we should have already begun that process.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

5 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

I mean realistically we all knew he would never be the guy here. But he was the best we could do in the situation we were in. He has known the end was coming for the last 2 years at least. It’s hard to go to work everyday watching your career come to an end and knowing there is nothing you could have done anyway. 

I’m not buying that.

 

Perhaps he feels like there’s nothing he could have done, as his comments come across that way.  But there was plenty he could have done and he squandered it mightily.

[srtman04]

6 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

I think it should go without saying that if you think the team around him and the coaching staff around him are below average then you have to look at what he has done well and wonder how GOOD coaching and talent around him would help. 

 

Paired with that I don't know how anyone could look at this current situation and call it good coaching and talent around him. Even the biggest of EB fans (me) cant argue that he is above reproach. 

 

All that together means it makes sense to think that you can build around this guy, coaches and players, and see if he gets better at what he has already shown. And if not then find someone else. 

 

 

ALL THAT SAID -- we might be in striking distance of the top of what I guess some people are calling a talented QB draft? Close in enough to sell out on a guy if you love him. Gonna be very interesting times. I don't know what I would do personally. 

 

I'd invest all of our tops picks into a new O-Line as priority# 1.   After that,   it's TE and best player available.  I would NOT take a risk a draft another QB, especially in the first round.  The rate of 1st round QB busts his high for a reason.......

[Llevron]

6 minutes ago, KDawg said:

The last paragraph always sounds great, but they’ve had some real stinkers this year… what happens when you draft one top 5 and they aren’t as good as Howell? You wasted a one. You can recover but it’s another year without helping the QB.

 

We may need a QB long term. We may not. No way to know in the current set up… but here is what I do know: We need to surround whoever is there with talent and we should have already begun that process.

 

3 minutes ago, srtman04 said:

 

I'd invest all of our tops picks into a new O-Line as priority# 1.   After that,   it's TE and best player available.  I would NOT take a risk a draft another QB, especially in the first round.  The rate of 1st round QB busts his high for a reason.......

 

I 110% agree with building around this guy while he is cheap and talented enough we think he could be the guy. Its so easy to waste picks reaching for a guy with double his 'talent' and just nothing clicks. And then what? That is my biggest fear. 

[Skintime]

11 minutes ago, srtman04 said:

 

I'd invest all of our tops picks into a new O-Line as priority# 1.   After that,   it's TE and best player available.  I would NOT take a risk a draft another QB, especially in the first round.  The rate of 1st round QB busts his high for a reason.......

I agree. Williams is overrated, and what I saw of Maye this weekend makes me wonder. He has struggled against good teams

[Warhead36]

Its gonna depend a lot on who the new GM/Coach is and what their philosophy is.

 

For example take Ben Johnson. The Lions have invested heavily in their OL and its probably the best in the league(maybe 2nd to the Eagles at worst). So I could see him wanting to get one of the top Ts.

 

 

[ExoDus84]

I'm not down on Sam just because he had a bad game or two this year. I'd say he's had 3 pretty bad games, 2 ok ones, and 6 good to very good games. Considering we have zero running game, a horrid defense, and a very hit or miss OC, I think you have to consider Sam's first season as a starter so far a relative success.

 

He's young, and he's going to make mistakes (too many, perhaps). But the kid can play, and he's earned the right to stick around and show us what he's got. I'm interested to see how he finishes this year against good pass defenses.

[Going Commando]

9 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

 

I 110% agree with building around this guy while he is cheap and talented enough we think he could be the guy. Its so easy to waste picks reaching for a guy with double his 'talent' and just nothing clicks. And then what? That is my biggest fear. 

 

My biggest fear is that we pass on QB in this draft because the new regime wants to give the old regime's prospect a shot.  Then Sam struggles or is even just mediocre heading into his extension season and we don't commit to him long term. Off-season two or three comes around and this team has no real options to improve at QB in the kind of timeframe necessary for them to keep their jobs.  Meanwhile Drake Maye goes on to be a franchise QB for the Giants or Patriots or whoever.

 

Basically either a repetition of the exact same set of mistakes that the Rivera regime made, or a repetition of the Cousins fiasco.  I'm not in it for another five years before we can actually start rebuilding.  My passion for the team is already diminishing, this next regime needs to work out.  Josh Harris needs to get this GM and coaching hire right, and those guys need to get QB right.  In off-season one.  This off-season needs to be completely decisive on all three of those positions.

[Skinsinparadise]

26 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I’m not buying that.

 

Perhaps he feels like there’s nothing he could have done, as his comments come across that way.  But there was plenty he could have done and he squandered it mightily.

He lost some of us me included when his off season came off both uninspired and fell way short. If he approached the off season differently he had a fighting chance IMO.

 

Two different times I’ve heard beat reporters mention Jason Wright favoring sexier moves to sell tickets. I recall one was Lamar Jackson. And forgetting the value of that or takes on Jackson, the bottom line is Wright isn’t a moron. My takeaway from that was dude help me sell some tickets because your off seasons and seasons are so boring. 

 

Ron’s off seasons are so non sexy and boring and then followed by boring seasons. And I know some think sexy moves are bad because of Cerrato. They don’t have to be. And if some are unconvinced excitement could be driven by simple things like adding draft capital.

 

But Rivera isn’t really a go for it hard in the present kind of guy or go for it in the future type. So we are at stuck in no man’s land

 

And I was shocked with new ownership coming in,  Ron if anything doubled down on his no man’s land non sexy off seasons.

 

I bring it up because both Keim and Russini mentioned they get the vibe they will be aggressive this off season and if I recall Keim add a comment about making it more interesting for the fans or something like that.

 

Ron’s legacy for me now is mixed at best. Kudos for enduring that mess and overcoming cancer. But he also cemented himself IMO as a below average coach. 3 winning seasons out if 13. And ends with a Zorn like vibe of being a punchline.

 

IMO this could have helped his legacy where he went off into the sunset with a decent reputation. Instead he leaves where IMO he would never get a HC job again if he wanted one let alone full control. He made his bed to end his career as s punchline to many fans 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Going Commando said:

 

My biggest fear is that we pass on QB in this draft because the new regime wants to give the old regime's prospect a shot.  Then Sam struggles or is even just mediocre heading into his extension season and we don't commit to him long term. Off-season two or three comes around and this team has no real options to improve at QB in the kind of timeframe necessary for them to keep their jobs.  Meanwhile Drake Maye goes on to be a franchise QB for the Giants or Patriots or whoever.

 

Basically either a repetition of the exact same set of mistakes that the Rivera regime made, or a repetition of the Cousins fiasco.  I'm not in it for another five years before we can actually start rebuilding.  My passion for the team is already diminishing, this next regime needs to work out.  Josh Harris needs to get this GM and coaching hire r1495ight, and those guys need to get QB right.  In off-season one.  This off-season needs to be completely decisive on all three of those positions.

 

Look, any new QB needs to be protected. Period.

 

If Sam doesn't work in '24, we move forward in '25 with a new QB prospect. Sam buys the new regime to surround the QB, whoever it may be, with actual real talent. 

 

I don't think it's a repetition. Ron never went out and got his guy. He just kind of let it play out. 

[Riggo#44]

32 minutes ago, KDawg said:

what happens when you draft one top 5 and they aren’t as good as Howell?

 

6 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

Meanwhile Drake Maye goes on to be a franchise QB for the Giants or Patriots or whoever.

 

Schrodinger's QB.

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Ron never went out and got his guy. He just kind of let it play out.

 

He never really surrounded anyone with talent either.

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

 

Schrodinger's QB.

 

He never really surrounded anyone with talent either.

Yup.

 

Drake Maye could wind up being the greatest quarterback of all time. Who knows? Maybe drafting him is absolutely the right call.

 

But here's what I know: Our offensive line is bad. Any QB we draft or move forward with long term NEEDS to be protected or the assets used to add them are wasted.

 

If we can find a way to shore the OL with quality players and draft Drake Maye still because the new regime wants that? Works for me.

 

I don't see how that happens, though.

 

Add pieces, protect the QB. Start that process in '24. If needed, finish it with a QB in '25.

 

I don't think any QBs are succeeding here with hamstrung playcalling due to a poor OL. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

4 hours ago, DJHJR86 said:

He's been in the bottom third of QBR for most of the year, bottom third in passer rating, and leads the league in turnovers and sacks.  This nonsense about taking him over Josh Allen needs to stop.  The "he's the guy" talk needs to stop.  

 

 

 

He's earned next year.  That's it.  And if the new regime wants to draft or sign their guy, go for it.  

Let me explain something about Mike Jones: He is a Washington Post alumni,  rabble rousing, unconnected, untalented, unimaginative, unqualified and horrendous reporter who should have a job covering nothing more serious than the Franklin High School scarecrow football team.  

 

He is on par with Mr. 2 Minutes.  Except, at one point in his life, Rick Snider actually had sources and cogent thoughts.  That was, granted, 35 years ago.  But it happened.  

 

Mike Jones didn't even have that.  He was a bad reporter, a bad writer, a bad radio personality, a bad interview, who's only worth blocking on twitter.

 

I hope I was clear on this topic.  Dude should be banned from media for being a know-nothing idiot.  

 

 

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Stromberg had a good camp.  I know Ron didn't want to start a rookie center and oddly drafted him to stash for the future in a win now season.  But I think there is a good chance he's the guy.  LG though to me has no one.  

And now he's on IR. I don't remember why.  But I don't think you can go into next year with him as "the plan."  He can be part of the plan at center, but he can't be the plan.  Gates clearly isn't part of the plan.  Larsen might be.  While he appears to be smarter than a pile or rocks, he's not actually that good at blocking people.  Which is part of the job description.  

 

3 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah Turner had his issues but our receivers actually got open against man coverage last year. Teams this year are just playing us straight up man to man because our WRs can't beat it. Its been talked about all year by guys like Cooley and Paulsen and is probably the most frustrating thing about this team(when you consider how highly our WRs were supposed to be rated going into the year).

We do have WRs running open. The scheme does get guys open.  2 problems:  1. Howell isn't hitting guys when they are open at times because he's still learning.  That's fine.  It takes time. 2. The OL is just an absolute mess.  Howell has his guys pushed into his lap so quickly, he can't get the ball to guys when they are schemed open.

 

If you told me at the beginning of the year this OL was going to be worse than last year's OL with 4 different centers, Turner and that other guy who couldn't move, I wouldn't have believed you.  But they are.  And that's shocking.  

 

@Skinsinparadise said the OL was bad enough to wreck the season.  I disagreed because I thought they would be better than last year.  They're not, and it is at least a large part of the offensive struggles.  The defense actually wrecked the year.  I'm not sure anybody saw that coming.  

 

2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

Yep we ALWAYS run a shotgun draw on 2nd and 10 and it NEVER works. It always results in like 3rd and 9. 

This is my biggest gripe.  

 

12 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Its gonna depend a lot on who the new GM/Coach is and what their philosophy is.

 

For example take Ben Johnson. The Lions have invested heavily in their OL and its probably the best in the league(maybe 2nd to the Eagles at worst). So I could see him wanting to get one of the top Ts.

Ben Johnson is going to LA to coach Herbert.  I would too if I was Ben Johnson.  

 

I don't know who we're going to get, but I'm starting to think it's going to be somebody we've never heard of.  And it might work great.  Or it might not.  

[Skinsinparadise]

As bad as the season is going I still don’t see us picking 1 or 2 to get Maye. Teams typically don’t trade away those picks. I heard a Bears reporter say recently he heard the Bears are going QB in the draft. Cards likely, too. Giants won’t trade the pick to us and they are into getting a QB.   I am betting we pick 4th at best,

 

And if by some wild chance we pick first or 2nd I bet they’d take a QB.

 

So I don’t see this as a debate. It will just work out organically unless the discussion is about Penix or Daniels 

[Thinking Skins]

On 11/19/2023 at 11:52 AM, Voice_of_Reason said:

Yeah, I didn't say that.  Never have said it, in fact.  

 

I don't have an opinion any which way on HC at the moment.  Haven't really given it a lot of thought because there are still 2 months to go before it becomes a thing. I know it can't be Ron.  And it's not going to be Belichick.  That's about as far as I've gotten.  

 

But the similarity of coverage for early Reid and now first year Bieniemy is absolutely shocking.  The idiot Philly media would have run Reid out after year 1 and 2 because of his refusal to run the ball.  Early Reid took a ton of heat for it.  It wasn't until he really established the fact he knew what he was doing and they just kept winning when people backed off. Remember, when Reid was hired in Philly, he wasn't even GB's OC.  He was the QB coach.  He wasn't a play caller either. So he was roundly criticized for passing too much for years.  

I also don't think you can judge a coach, just about any coach, Head Coach or coordinator, off of a partial year implementing a new system.  I think it takes longer.  And if it's the first time you're doing it, well, there is a learning curve for coaches as well.  

 

I have no idea if EB would be a good HC or not.  I do think he's a better coordinator than a lot of folks give him credit for.  Is he Reid?  Certainly not yet.  Could he develop into a really solid OC, and have a mind-meld with Howell?  Maybe.  

 

I push back on what I think is over the top coverage and takes. And ignorant takes.  Also, the more I listen to Standig, the more I think he actually knows Basketball a whole hell of a lot better than football.  And I think he likes talking/writing Wizards more than Commanders, but his job for the Athletic is to cover the Commanders. I think he's really struggling with covering the football aspect of the team now that the Dan factor has gone away.  

 

JP has good sources.  However, his ability to actually analyze anything is poor.  Probably partially because he spends so much time with BMitch.  But he was all on board the Hallock train, and that alone should tell anybody who actually knows anything he has no idea what he's looking at. Mitch is a character and knows nothing.  But is fun to listen to, and JP and Mitch have good chemistry.

 

Bram ... I've been a fan for YEARS.  Thought he was the best on the beat (minus maybe Keim) from the time he started in the early 2000's.  However, he's also lost me a bit from some of his takes.  Keim and Bram did have a very interesting conversation on the topic about EB as a HC candidate. Clearly if the HOG hires an offensive guy, EB is gone, and the offensive guy would run the offense.  If they hire a defensive guy (unlikely in my opinion) and keep EB as OC, and the offense is top 10 (maybe again depending on how they finish the year) then he could be gone in another year and you're going to be switching system.  

 

I think, having thought about it as I write this post a bit, I don't want EB as the OC under a new HC.  Either hire an offensive guy and that's that, or promote EB to HC.  I don't want a defensive guy with EB as OC.  

 

I rather doubt EB gets the HC job here, FWIW.  And I'd be fine with that.  I don't think we're going to get Ben Johnson though.  If I had to bet, if he has choices, he's going to go to San Diego to coach Herbert. As I said, I really haven't given who else might be available much thought.  I just hope we hire somebody with a progressive, pass-first offensive system.  

 

If there was a chance we could trade for McVay if he for some reason wanted a change of scenery and out of LA, I'd do that in a heartbeat.  But that's not going to happen.  

I agree with all of this. 

 

I think that as far as analyzing things the local media is really lacking. As far as content goes you have some guys who will give you some segments like "Commanders win if ... " but I was so frustrated this week because I spent ALL WEEK looking for scouting reports on Tommy Devito. I wanted to hear about whether or not he can scramble (as we found out he can) or whether he has arm strength (he does). But this stuff wasn't talked about on radio. They just made puns about his moms couch and firing Ron if we lose. What happened to any given Sunday? What happened to Wink's defense? Isn't he known for abusing rookie / young QBs? What happened to the Thibs vs Leno matchup that was bad last time? or the Lawrence vs our C matchup that caused so many mistakes? I heard so little analysis of this. 

 

As far as the next coach goes, I think Ben wants to go to SD just because Herbert is a hotter and longer lasting in the top 5 / 10 QB list than Howell. Not saying that Howell can't get there, but if he wants to have that job long reserreucting Herbert's career may be a safer bet than Howell's. That said, Howell's attitude may be a thing that brings Ben here. Not saying that's a knock on Herbert but we know that Ben and Howell have a relationship, so he knows how to talk to Howell and likely won't have to learn Howell like he will Herbert. 

[ntotoro]

15 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

My biggest fear is that we pass on QB in this draft because the new regime wants to give the old regime's prospect a shot.  Then Sam struggles or is even just mediocre heading into his extension season and we don't commit to him long term. Off-season two or three comes around and this team has no real options to improve at QB in the kind of timeframe necessary for them to keep their jobs.  Meanwhile Drake Maye goes on to be a franchise QB for the Giants or Patriots or whoever.

 

I think they'll draft a QB simply because of numbers: they need to and I don't believe Brissett will return. There are no truly elite prospects out there next year... and no, Caleb Williams is no more an elite prospect than any QB coming out of USC. They'll definitely be drafting at least one QB next year, though.

[Thinking Skins]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

As bad as the season is going I still don’t see us picking 1 or 2 to get Maye. Teams typically don’t trade away those picks. I heard a Bears reporter say recently he heard the Bears are going QB in the draft. Cards likely, too. Giants won’t trade the pick to us and they are into getting a QB.   I am betting we pick 4th at best,

 

And if by some wild chance we pick first or 2nd I bet they’d take a QB.

 

So I don’t see this as a debate. It will just work out organically unless the discussion is about Penix or Daniels 

If we go top 4 I pray we get a top LT or trade down

[DJHJR86]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

As bad as the season is going I still don’t see us picking 1 or 2 to get Maye. Teams typically don’t trade away those picks. I heard a Bears reporter say recently he heard the Bears are going QB in the draft. Cards likely, too. Giants won’t trade the pick to us and they are into getting a QB.   I am betting we pick 4th at best,

 

And if by some wild chance we pick first or 2nd I bet they’d take a QB.

 

So I don’t see this as a debate. It will just work out organically unless the discussion is about Penix or Daniels 

 

While I think this is ultimately a moot discussion, the wildcard for me is the new GM.  Do they want to come in and make a splashy move via the draft?  If so, I could see a trading up scenario.