The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[KDawg]

edit: wrong thread

Edited October 9, 2023 by KDawg

[Thinking Skins]

21 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

lol, yeah I listened to the same podcast he did and Cooley was all over the place in that podcast.  He flat out said in that podcast the O line wasn't good.  He went as far as saying he didn't like how ANY of the O lineman were playing in that podcast.  He also flat out said on reflection in that same podcast that guys weren't open, so some of those sacks were coverage sacks. 

 

He also said in that podcast he's not discouraged about Howell based on that game.  So if anyone's takeaway from that podcast was this is on Howell -- impying the O line was OK -- that was cherry picking IMO.  He jumped around a lot on that podcast.

 

If you take that podcast and the last one.  Cooley and Sheehan for that matter don't think much of the O line.  And yeah Cooley flat out said that Howell was great last Thursday at avoiding sacks thanks to his wiggle in that pocket where he escaped the defenders grasp many times.  

 

I don't always agree with Cooley but I often do.  One of things that i like about him is he's not stuck on an opinion, he will change his take.  And its easy to see he started this season lukewarm about Howell but has really warmed up to him as the season has gone on.  Jay, too but I haven't listen to the latest Jay part of the Sheehan podcast yet.

This is one podcast I skipped. Well all of Friday and the weekend. I needed to exhale. But I agree with this. I'd put probably zero sacks on Howell. Some were coverage, some were line, some were scrambles where he got caught. 

 

Turning to Howell though, I thought he played an immaculate game and did everything he could to keep us in it. And if Slye makes that FG or Fuller makes that pic 6 we're talking another game. But Howell played great. I don't think those are garbage yards because he brought us back into the game. 30-20 with a chance to make it 30-23 in the 4th is still winnable. 

 

He had that one bad decision on the interception, but I thought he did great otherwise and I'm still calling him franchise guy. I was at church Sunday giving pep talks talking about how this is just one loss but we've found our guy. I mean this is 4 games now that he's brought us back from deficits to win our almost win games. He's not John Elway but it's fun knowing it's never over. 

[FootballZombie]

My biggest issue w/ evaluating Howell right now is that so much of his good has came from blowout situations.

 

While Howell is playing well, it is difficult to fully decipher how much of that is his play and how much of that is a result of circumstance. We have entered blow out territory in the majority of our games this season, and two out-of three of Howell's good games were vastly influenced by said blowouts. (Den, Chi)

 

 

There are plenty of QBs and Os around the NFL that put up big numbers because they are constantly in blowout mode, but they are in turn not even close to what their stats make them out to be. I can't just ignore that Howell is not benefiting from that same aspect at least to some degree just b/c he is the QB of my team. As I have said in the past I can't give full credit for a O, D, Team or a QB showing up all after the fact, and I know a ton of people around here absolutely slam specific QBs around the league for the same issue.

 

Luckily we have more evaluation time, and I would really love to see Howell deliver more good play in games where he does not have a tailwind. Right now I have really only seen that once vs Philly.

 

 

So for me, Howell has performed well so far in the situations presented to him, but it comes with the asterisk that those situations are not those that are super revealing of good QB play so to say.

[Thinking Skins]

54 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

My biggest issue w/ evaluating Howell right now is that so much of his good has came from blowout situations.

 

While Howell is playing well, it is difficult to fully decipher how much of that is his play and how much of that is a result of circumstance. We have entered blow out territory in the majority of our games this season, and two out-of three of Howell's good games were vastly influenced by said blowouts. (Den, Chi)

 

 

There are plenty of QBs and Os around the NFL that put up big numbers because they are constantly in blowout mode, but they are in turn not even close to what their stats make them out to be. I can't just ignore that Howell is not benefiting from that same aspect at least to some degree just b/c he is the QB of my team. As I have said in the past I can't give full credit for a O, D, Team or a QB showing up all after the fact, and I know a ton of people around here absolutely slam specific QBs around the league for the same issue.

 

Luckily we have more evaluation time, and I would really love to see Howell deliver more good play in games where he does not have a tailwind. Right now I have really only seen that once vs Philly.

 

 

So for me, Howell has performed well so far in the situations presented to him, but it comes with the asterisk that those situations are not those that are super revealing of good QB play so to say.

That's true and I don't want to get into Kirk territory with him where everything is against prevent defense. It is nice to know that the moment is not too big for him and he can keep us competitive. But I would like to see our team play a whole game and either have the lead the whole game or at least go blow for blow with another team. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

25 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

That's true and I don't want to get into Kirk territory with him where everything is against prevent defense.

This is perhaps one of the biggest fallacies in sport.  This team has stunk for a long time, but it’s rare they are getting boat raced and teams are just sitting back in prevent allowing us to dink and dunk down the field.  That goes for Kirk and now Sam as well.  
 

Sam has not been looking at prevent defenses, in fact - I believe there is some measurement for this regarding ‘how open’ receivers are and our receivers had among the least amount of separation in the league.  Meaning Sam is having to put the ball in tighter windows.

 

[Thinking Skins]

3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

This is perhaps one of the biggest fallacies in sport.  This team has stunk for a long time, but it’s rare they are getting boat raced and teams are just sitting back in prevent allowing us to dink and dunk down the field.  That goes for Kirk and now Sam as well.  
 

Sam has not been looking at prevent defenses, in fact - I believe there is some measurement for this regarding ‘how open’ receivers are and our receivers had among the least amount of separation in the league.  Meaning Sam is having to put the ball in tighter windows.

 

Exactly. That's what I've been arguing on Twitter. Some want to say it was prevent and Kirk numbers 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Thinking Skins

[Skinsinparadise]

As i mentioned both Cooley and Jay started lukewarm on Howell before the season but over time this season have liked him more and more.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

This is one podcast I skipped. Well all of Friday and the weekend. I needed to exhale. But I agree with this. I'd put probably zero sacks on Howell. Some were coverage, some were line, some were scrambles where he got caught. 

 

Turning to Howell though, I thought he played an immaculate game and did everything he could to keep us in it. And if Slye makes that FG or Fuller makes that pic 6 we're talking another game. But Howell played great. I don't think those are garbage yards because he brought us back into the game. 30-20 with a chance to make it 30-23 in the 4th is still winnable. 

 

He had that one bad decision on the interception, but I thought he did great otherwise and I'm still calling him franchise guy. I was at church Sunday giving pep talks talking about how this is just one loss but we've found our guy. I mean this is 4 games now that he's brought us back from deficits to win our almost win games. He's not John Elway but it's fun knowing it's never over. 

 

I agree with most of this.  Not sure about immaculate, it wasn't as good early on but he on the aggregate played a good game.

 

If you told me before the season they'd start 2-3, I'd be mildly surpised. I picked them to start 4-2 and end at 8-9.

 

I was somewhat high before the season on Howell but expected growing pains.  There have been less growing pains than I expected.   Howell isn't the issue for the 2-3 start, if anything he's the ray of light with this team so far.

[kingdaddy]

Trade Brissett

[Daniel.redskins]

4 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

My biggest issue w/ evaluating Howell right now is that so much of his good has came from blowout situations.

Only one our games was a complete blowout (Buffalo) and Howell's numbers were atrocious that game. We had Chicago within 10 (7 if Slye makes the kick) in the 4th quarter. After 5 weeks Howell is 6th in passing yards and tied for 13th in touchdowns. He is playing better than every young QB drafted in the last 2 seasons except Purdy and Stroud. He needs to be a bit quicker in his primary read but other than that I am very impressed and he has shown no reason to move on from him.  

[Stone Cold]

16 minutes ago, Daniel.redskins said:

Only one our games was a complete blowout (Buffalo) and Howell's numbers were atrocious that game. We had Chicago within 10 (7 if Slye makes the kick) in the 4th quarter. After 5 weeks Howell is 6th in passing yards and tied for 13th in touchdowns. He is playing better than every young QB drafted in the last 2 seasons except Purdy and Stroud. He needs to be a bit quicker in his primary read but other than that I am very impressed and he has shown no reason to move on from him.  

Sam is not the problem.  Give this guy a better OL and a defense that shortens fields and his numbers will continue to improve 

[goskins10]

13 minutes ago, Stone Cold said:

Sam is not the problem.  Give this guy a better OL

 

There I fixed it for you 🙂  

[Stone Cold]

3 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

There I fixed it for you 🙂  

Don’t underestimate the value of short fields.  Perpetually driving for 80 yards is not conducive to winning.  I’m looking for more explosive plays on both offense and defense.  Plays that alter momentum, build confidence and demoralize opponents 

[FootballZombie]

24 minutes ago, Daniel.redskins said:

Only one our games was a complete blowout (Buffalo) and Howell's numbers were atrocious that game. We had Chicago within 10 (7 if Slye makes the kick) in the 4th quarter. After 5 weeks Howell is 6th in passing yards and tied for 13th in touchdowns. He is playing better than every young QB drafted in the last 2 seasons except Purdy and Stroud. He needs to be a bit quicker in his primary read but other than that I am very impressed and he has shown no reason to move on from him.  

 

Its not about how close the scores became, and more about how far apart they were.

 

We were down 3 scores. 21-3 vs Den and 27-3 vs Chi.

Howell had like 50 yards passing in the 1st half vs Chi. Its not hard to extrapolate that he put up a metric ton of his stats after the score became monumentally lopsided.

Similar thought patterns can be drawn from the Den game as well.

 

I wanna see him put up numbers in more competitive situational affairs like he did vs Philly. That way their is no discrepancy vs what is earned by him and what is a product of his situation of getting blown out in the majority of our games.

 

 

Putting up numbers in blowouts is not in itself a reliable indicator of quality QB play.

[goskins10]

The idea that the majority of his production has been in so called "blowout mode" is just silly. @FootballZombie we had this discussion before but I can't belive you are still on that path. Just because the team is behind does not always mean "blowout" You really think Arizona was just sitting back in defensive mode? And no Sam was not "bad" that game. He made some rookie mistakes. But the Oline was like swiss cheese and EB asked him to throw what 30+ times in the first half alone? And the team pulled close jsut before the half. No way you can call any part of that second half "blowout" mode. You think the Eagles were just laying back little him have stuff? Wash was never more than 7 pts back from the eagles and had the largest lead at 10. 

 

We beat Denver so very little of that was blowout time. Denver was desperate fro a win. You really think they were playing with the mindset of let them have some stuff? Hell no! They wanted to embaress us. Yes, Denver starter 21-3 by 9 mins left in the 2nd. But Wash came right back with a TD. Then got to within 7 at the half. Took the lead in the 4th and never looked back. So out of 5 gms that at the very least 10 Qs, only looking at 3 of the games, the team was not in "blowout" mode. 

 

Sam is not a finished product. And it's fair to say we have not seen enough to crown him the franchise player. But saying what we have seen is jsut mostly "blowout" mode makes no real sense. 

 

 

 

12 hours ago, Stone Cold said:

Don’t underestimate the value of short fields.  Perpetually driving for 80 yards is not conducive to winning.  I’m looking for more explosive plays on both offense and defense.  Plays that alter momentum, build confidence and demoralize opponents 

 

I am not underestimating short fields at all. But Olines are the key for Howells production. We could have the greatest def in the league. But Sam still going to take longer to develpo if he sits behind a pourous oline, that's if he doesn;t get killed first.

 

But honestly was more just ****ing around. That's why the smiley...  

Edited October 10, 2023 by goskins10

[FootballZombie]

6 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

You really think Arizona was just sitting back in defensive mode? And no Sam was not "bad" that game. He made some rookie mistakes.

 

10 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

You think the Eagles were just laying back little him have stuff? Wash was never more than 7 pts back from the eagles and had the largest lead at 10. 

 

I have never claimed Sam was bad in the Ariz game. He was neutral or meh.

I have never said that Ariz was sitting back either as that game was never a blowout. Those games were Den, Buff and Chi

I praised Sam's work in the Philly game, because he put forward good play in a situation that was not a blowout.

 

 

12 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

The idea that the majority of his production has been in so called "blowout mode" is just silly.

 

I don't need a team to hang 70 on us before I acknowledge we are getting our butts handed to us.

And as I've pointed out in the past putting up numbers in situations after your down 3 Major Tuddies does not ring the same with me as coming out and doing it from the jump. It can be just as much a sign of failure to get to that point as it is success to get out of it.

Its not a hot take to point out Howell has a lot of his stats accursed after we have gotten our teeth kicked in... and its pretty easy to prove.

 

All this to say I have been approving of Howell this season. He has done well. You can't ask much more than what he is given us. Its not his play that gives me pause, but the situations he is in. If he had the same stat line but most of our games were of the philly variety rather than Denn or Chi, I'd be super high on Howell right now. Dang near Purdy or Stroud levels high.

 

But if I can't be sure that a ton of his stats are not just a product of being in the kinds of games we constantly in... you get where I am now. I like his play, but I question the feasibility.

 

[kingdaddy]

2 hours ago, Stone Cold said:

Don’t underestimate the value of short fields.  Perpetually driving for 80 yards is not conducive to winning.  I’m looking for more explosive plays on both offense and defense.  Plays that alter momentum, build confidence and demoralize opponents 

thank you....it's why Ive said all season that the defense needs to help Sam out. Why is Purdy so good in SF? Great defense and good O-line.

[kingdaddy]

7 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

My biggest issue w/ evaluating Howell right now is that so much of his good has came from blowout situations.

 

I like this point and it's why I think we should just move on from RR and let EB run the show to finish the season. News flash, we aint winning the Super Bowl this season so lets find out what we have moving forward. Run the ball and challenge your defense to keep us in games while picking your spots with Sam. Brian Robinson should lead the league in carries moving forward and we should give Rodriguez carries to help him out...move on from Gibson as a runner. 

Play every game tight to the vest and bore the hell out of everyone like Atlanta is doing with Ridder. Challenge your defense and O-line to win games. Sam should not pass more than 25-30 times a game even if we're getting blown out.....this staff needs to get a plan and it shouldn't be winning at all costs at the expense of Sam's health.

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

49 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

thank you....it's why Ive said all season that the defense needs to help Sam out. Why is Purdy so good in SF? Great defense and good O-line.

Great weapons, great system and great coaching.

 

They are so impressive it’s sickening.

[Thinking Skins]

 

 

[Thinking Skins]

 

 

[Stihl89]

Sam right now has shown he belongs in the league. But imo not much beyond that. I think he’s looking like some where between Teddy and Tannehill. A player you don’t mind as your QB but feel like you’re limited. 
 

I find myself thinking it’s going to be hard for him to be an elite QB. It’s ok for now and you CAN win with those guys but it’s hard to consistently and near impossible once he gets paid because pretty much all QBs get paid at least decently. So pretty much purgatory and the worst place to be. 
 

I have to love a QB to want him and I don’t see myself doing that with Sam. Some of that is due to his circumstances unfortunately outside of his control. 

[method man]

Just now, Stihl89 said:

Sam right now has shown he belongs in the league. But imo not much beyond that. I think he’s looking like some where between Teddy and Tannehill. A player you don’t mind as your QB but feel like you’re limited. 
 

I find myself thinking it’s going to be hard for him to be an elite QB. It’s ok for now and you CAN win with those guys but it’s hard to consistently and near impossible once he gets paid because pretty much all QBs get paid at least decently. So pretty much purgatory and the worst place to be. 
 

I have to love a QB to want him and I don’t see myself doing that with Sam. Some of that is due to his circumstances unfortunately outside of his control. 

The lack of height and higher end athleticism definitely hurt his upside. You could win and win big with him if you are able to get more high end talent around him.

[MartinC]

8 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

That's true and I don't want to get into Kirk territory with him where everything is against prevent defense. It is nice to know that the moment is not too big for him and he can keep us competitive. But I would like to see our team play a whole game and either have the lead the whole game or at least go blow for blow with another team. 

We were blow for blow with the Eagles.

[Thinking Skins]

4 minutes ago, MartinC said:

We were blow for blow with the Eagles.

Exactly. I just want to see it more often. Game after game, week after week. 

[Stone Cold]

34 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

 

We perform better and he’s a story.  Wins bring attention.  And he is certainly performing in a manner worthy of national attention