The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[samy316]

15 minutes ago, Gurgeh said:

Playing behind a bad line has ruined the career of better prospects than Sam Howell.

 

Good teams put their players in a position to succeed, but this year we seem to have done the opposite for our QBs. If Sam does work out, it won't be because of the staff, it will be despite them.

 

 

 

Quoted for emphasis.  This team did so little to help Howell, in an area that's crucial to his development into a legit starting QB.  Yes we have the pass catchers around him, but his protection is most important.  How can we get those highlight throws to Terry and Jahan, when Howell will be running for his life as soon as the ball is snapped?  Any success Howell has this season will be as a result of overcoming obstacles around him, NOT due to being put in a difficult position to be successful by his HC and FO.

[skinny21]

27 minutes ago, Gurgeh said:

Playing behind a bad line has ruined the career of better prospects than Sam Howell.

 

Good teams put their players in a position to succeed, but this year we seem to have done the opposite for our QBs. If Sam does work out, it won't be because of the staff, it will be despite them.

 

 

While I tend to agree, especially w/ regard to the makeup of the oline - a huge piece in terms of supporting any qb, let alone an inexperienced one - there are multiple details relating to EB that I believe can directly help Howell.  

Having multiple options when put under pressure, harping on the details so everyone is on the same page, stopping play to clean up mistakes, not believing in putting qbs in a box in terms of play style, heavy use of motions/RPOs/screens to assist the oline and make the D hesitate, utilizing shorter routes to allow Howell to get the ball out quickly (and give our weapons a better chance at YAC), and using option routes to help create quick separation by the pass catchers.

 

And of course, while I’m critical about how they addressed the line, shoring up/adding to an already stout D, along with the added focus on turnovers would help any qb.  I mean, it’s certainly further down the list (in my book) than pass pro, and I highly doubt they had Howell in mind much when they drafted Forbes and Quan… but it’s something. 

 

Now don’t get me wrong, I still think this oline could (and very likely will) be an anchor around Howell’s neck, and I’m not making the “EB will be able to overcome/hide the presumed oline deficiencies” argument.  I just think that EB (as part of the staff/hired by the staff) is showing some things that can help Howell find some success.  

[Conn]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

We can say media and fan perception doesn’t matter. These are professional athletes. But that’s not true anymore. These guys aren’t the same as they were 20 years ago. They are more in tune with their mental health and feelings. That’s not a bad thing. But it certainly adds layers.

 

When you are supported you are more likely to be successful. When you are not supported or constantly criticized you are less likely to achieve results needed.

 

Sure, there are more polarizing cases of players who have done fine. But all in all support leads to development. Organizational, media and fans play a role. 
 

Wentz is the latest example of going from fully supported to not and at the same time going from NFL MVP caliber seasons to… well… ya. Now, there are other factors there for him as well. But the point remains. 
 

Jumping to conclusions on Howell before a preseason game is played is silly. Id say that about any rookie/semi rookie QB out there. Ridder, Purdy, Love, etc. 

 

Let’s see what happens in games before we worry too much. And in our case: it’s not like Brissett is a great option for a QB to elevate. Brissett’s value is that he is a pro and can keep a franchise afloat. He isn’t going to come in and change the tides.

I understand what you’re saying, I just have a tough time getting onboard. Yeah, these guys are online and on social media 24/7. But with the proliferation of fantasy football, daily fantasy sports betting, props gambling, etc. the best players get as much hate and criticism as the worst players! Mahomes is probably the most hated-on player on social media, Brady before him (though he’s older, he wasn’t paying attention to that ****). I just don’t buy that players can differentiate from the tidal wave of national social media hate they couldn’t control regardless, that they absolutely have to ignore—hate from pissed off gamblers and fantasy bettors and opposing fans and trolls—and the local actual fans expressing doubt and such on the same social media sites, forums, etc. Obviously regardless of who is “right” about this, it’s not a measurable phenomenon, so there’s no way to quantify it or track it—it’s more academic.
 

But I don’t see how online fan sentiment can realistically effect a player’s development beyond individual cases of (understandable) mental health struggles from living in the spotlight that would happen with or without local fan support, given the global and trollish nature of the internet. Almost anyone with any sort of profile and online presence has too many haters to parse which are fans and which are rival fans, fantasy analysts, gamblers, etc. The noise can get to guys, but I don’t think someone who was going to succeed, somehow doesn’t because some fans are skeptical of their skill-set or whatever. 

[KDawg]

39 minutes ago, Conn said:

I understand what you’re saying, I just have a tough time getting onboard. Yeah, these guys are online and on social media 24/7. But with the proliferation of fantasy football, daily fantasy sports betting, props gambling, etc. the best players get as much hate and criticism as the worst players! Mahomes is probably the most hated-on player on social media, Brady before him (though he’s older, he wasn’t paying attention to that ****). I just don’t buy that players can differentiate from the tidal wave of national social media hate they couldn’t control regardless, that they absolutely have to ignore—hate from pissed off gamblers and fantasy bettors and opposing fans and trolls—and the local actual fans expressing doubt and such on the same social media sites, forums, etc. Obviously regardless of who is “right” about this, it’s not a measurable phenomenon, so there’s no way to quantify it or track it—it’s more academic.
 

But I don’t see how online fan sentiment can realistically effect a player’s development beyond individual cases of (understandable) mental health struggles from living in the spotlight that would happen with or without local fan support, given the global and trollish nature of the internet. Almost anyone with any sort of profile and online presence has too many haters to parse which are fans and which are rival fans, fantasy analysts, gamblers, etc. The noise can get to guys, but I don’t think someone who was going to succeed, somehow doesn’t because some fans are skeptical of their skill-set or whatever. 

 

The point that the best players get more hate than the worst isn't lost on me...

 

But they also get more love. Exponentially. 

 

Further, it's not so much academic as you think. I've been on the field with high level athletes and coaches and had conversations with them.

 

They hear it and it effects them. When the media asks, though, they'll say they need to focus on them and block out the noise.

[Koolblue13]

This talk reminds me of when skinsforlyfe and I won the best buy dream seats and were right behind the eagles bench. Made John Runyn laugh and DJax flipped us off. It was awesome.

[Conn]

44 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

The point that the best players get more hate than the worst isn't lost on me...

 

But they also get more love. Exponentially. 

 

Further, it's not so much academic as you think. I've been on the field with high level athletes and coaches and had conversations with them.

 

They hear it and it effects them. When the media asks, though, they'll say they need to focus on them and block out the noise.

Makes sense to me. I think ability to handle outside noise is just part of a player’s makeup though. It’s more important now than ever, obviously, for the reasons you’ve talked about. But I don’t think guys who otherwise would develop into good players are busting out of the league because of the noise. And if they are, that was just an intangible that was impossible to measure in the evaluation of the player. Mental skill-set being as important as physical skill-set, sometimes you miss. So I think you’re right that it effects players, but I believe that I’m right that it’s not something that fans can really effect that much, because the player’s ability to handle noise is part of the player in the first place. Some environments are more nurturing than others, and stability in organizations can create that. But for instance I don’t believe that a soft guy like Matt Jones hears the noise online about his fumbling problem and falls out of the league because of it—I think that hole in his skillset, that lack of mental toughness and resilience is already baked into the player. We just don’t know it. He was never going to be a good player and the fans didn’t change that. 

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

I think that Sam’s play on the field will speak for itself (eventually), but it’s the way he plays the game that will endear him to the fanbase.

 

This kid is an absolute warrior. That trait will show up whether he’s struggling or not. 

[Koolblue13]

6 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

I think that Sam’s play on the field will speak for itself (eventually), but it’s the way he plays the game that will endear him to the fanbase.

 

This kid is an absolute warrior. That trait will show up whether he’s struggling or not. 

Completely agree. Highs and Lows are sure to come, but Howell has no quit in him.

[Voice_of_Reason]

On 8/2/2023 at 12:16 AM, Mr. Sinister said:

He's going to struggle. No doubt in my mind. Most good qb's do, early on. The thing for me, will be if the staff/ownership, and fanbase to a far lesser extent, show patience, while it's very likely that every other QB in the division will be throwing darts

Eh, he might, he might not.

 

There are 2 things about the Andy Reid offense:

 

1. It's wordy as hell.  

2. If you grasp it, then it's EXTREMELY QB friendly.  Tons of short passes, movement, switches, etc.  which makes the offense less predictable.  

 

Something Warren Sharp pointed out: the Chiefs threw the most (or second most, I don't remember) number of passes at or behind the LOS, and had a very good average yards per play doing so.  He said that while Howell isn't Mahomes, the difference between the two throwing the ball maybe 10 yards really shouldn't be THAT great.  

 

If the OL does what they want it to do, which is be able to get out and run, and they can get the ball out of Howell's hands quickly, he might not struggle that much.  

 

If they ask him to take a 5 or 7 step drop, read a defense and then throw, he'll struggle more.

 

I think EB is the perfect OC to work this through with a young QB.  Great system.  As long as the players can understand all the verbiage, because it's the wordiest system in the NFL, according to several people.  

[kfrankie]

5 hours ago, Gurgeh said:

Playing behind a bad line has ruined the career of better prospects than Sam Howell.

 

Good teams put their players in a position to succeed, but this year we seem to have done the opposite for our QBs. If Sam does work out, it won't be because of the staff, it will be despite them.

 

 

 

The Commanders O-line has the aggression part of it down, although sometimes misdirected. Just has a few small things it needs to work on.....

[Voice_of_Reason]

7 hours ago, MartinC said:

To be fair to Turner he was badly hamstrung by what he had at the QB position. But 100% agree that the bar has been set very low for EB to clear to be an improvement.

I defended Turner more than most.

 

But at the end of the day, he failed at one thing more than anything else: he didn't adapt and try and do ANYTHING different other than run the ball more to protect a (very) bad QB and a (very) bad OL.  Like, High School coaches can come up with things to do that can cover a weakness.  Scott didn't even really try.  They just kept trotting out the same stuff, it didn't work, so they ran more, which didn't work, and then they ran some more, which didn't work, and then they prayed the back judge would knock a couple defenders over so they could get a moxie magic play at the end on pure luck.

 

Use hurry-up.  REDACTED's best quality was he knew the system.  Ok, use that.  Go hurry up.  Move the pocket.  Present the QB as a run threat.  Literally do ANYTHING except the same thing, which is all he did.

 

That's what doomed him in the end.  

7 minutes ago, kfrankie said:

 

The Commanders O-line has the aggression part of it down, although sometimes misdirected. Just has a few small things it needs to work on.....

You realize this was last year and there are 4 new starters on the OL, right?

[kfrankie]

9 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I defended Turner more than most.

 

But at the end of the day, he failed at one thing more than anything else: he didn't adapt and try and do ANYTHING different other than run the ball more to protect a (very) bad QB and a (very) bad OL.  Like, High School coaches can come up with things to do that can cover a weakness.  Scott didn't even really try.  They just kept trotting out the same stuff, it didn't work, so they ran more, which didn't work, and then they ran some more, which didn't work, and then they prayed the back judge would knock a couple defenders over so they could get a moxie magic play at the end on pure luck.

 

Use hurry-up.  REDACTED's best quality was he knew the system.  Ok, use that.  Go hurry up.  Move the pocket.  Present the QB as a run threat.  Literally do ANYTHING except the same thing, which is all he did.

 

That's what doomed him in the end.  

You realize this was last year and there are 4 new starters on the OL, right?

 

Yes, it was last year.  Unfortunately I don't have any footage from this season yet, but I will post as soon as I get the tape.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

[Chris 44]

19 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I'm thinking he's already won the job.....its keeping it that will be the trick.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, kfrankie said:

 

Yes, it was last year.  Unfortunately I don't have any footage from this season yet, but I will post as soon as I get the tape.

Why are you already assuming it will be as bad? 4 new starters, new OC and new online coach and new QB.  
 

What makes you so confident they will truly stink?

 

Also, I’m not sure if you realize games haven’t started yet….

Edited August 3, 2023 by Voice_of_Reason

[Darrell Green Fan]

9 hours ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

16 teams interviewed him and passed on him.  That's a red flag inasmuch as it was a red flag that Wentz was on his 3rd team in three years.  The other huge red flag is how terrible the only offense he was solely in control of looked when he was Colorado's offensive coordinator.  The reason you didn't hear the same amount of criticism on the hiring of EB is because the national media has been pounding the table for this guy to get a head coaching job for the last 4 years or so whereas Wentz was the punching bag for a lot of the national media.

 

 

 

 

 

16 teams passed him over for head coach right?  That's not the same as 16 teams passing him over for OC.  When he was hired I heard all sorts of praise from the national guys.  

[DJHJR86]

14 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

16 teams passed him over for head coach right?  That's not the same as 16 teams passing him over for OC.  When he was hired I heard all sorts of praise from the national guys.  

 

No one interviewed him to be OC except for Washington.  Ryan Poles, the guy who was with Kansas City from 2009-2021, was hired to be Chicago's general manager in 2022.  Guess who he didn't even bother to interview?  

[Koolblue13]

14 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

16 teams passed him over for head coach right?  That's not the same as 16 teams passing him over for OC.  When he was hired I heard all sorts of praise from the national guys.  

He was only interviewed by 15 teams. The Broncos I believe passed on him twice. 

[Going Commando]

32 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

No one interviewed him to be OC except for Washington.  Ryan Poles, the guy who was with Kansas City from 2009-2021, was hired to be Chicago's general manager in 2022.  Guess who he didn't even bother to interview?  

 

No one else even got the chance to interview him.  The Titans were interested, but moved on when they figured out that Ron, Bieniemy, and Reid had some kind of a handshake deal for Bieniemy to come here after the season.  Bieniemy interviewed here and got the job days after the SB.  You can't have that rapid of a timeline unless the parties involved have worked it out some time during the season.  My guess is that Bieniemy started to set this up when he didn't sign a contract extension with KC.  I think he wanted to be here, and we were lucky that Ron had pull with Andy Reid and had an OC opening at the right time.

 

Bieniemy is a rockstar assistant coach.  Of all the big time offensive assistants we've had come through on a head coaching track, Bieniemy is perhaps the most obvious future head coach of the bunch.  My question isn't so much whether he'll eventually move on from us to take a promotion, but when.  I'm hoping he'll be here for two seasons, because that second season could be the one where the stars align for us.

[DJHJR86]

59 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

Bieniemy is a rockstar assistant coach.  Of all the big time offensive assistants we've had come through on a head coaching track, Bieniemy is perhaps the most obvious future head coach of the bunch.  My question isn't so much whether he'll eventually move on from us to take a promotion, but when.  I'm hoping he'll be here for two seasons, because that second season could be the one where the stars align for us.

 

Bieniemy was such a hot commodity that the Titans and Ravens hired offensive coordinators before they had the chance to interview him.  Both teams requested interviews but then hired coordinators before he became available.  One would think that if he was a "rockstar", they would've waited before interviewing him.  And if it was indeed a wink wink nudge nudge between Rivera and Reid...that should be yet another huge red flag.  He's not an obvious future head coach, or else 16 teams wouldn't have passed on him, including the Colts from earlier this year.  

[DJHJR86]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

He was only interviewed by 15 teams. The Broncos I believe passed on him twice. 

 

Yeah, that was my mistake.  It was 16 interviews with 15 teams.  And Benjamin Allbright, who I believe is very plugged in to the Denver area, has been adamant that they would never hire him there, largely because of his past at Colorado.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bieniemy does not excite me in the least.  Which circles back to Howell.  I worry that he's going to hurt his development.  Or, if he turns out to be a total bust as an offensive coordinator, this could ruin Howell's chances as a starter moving forward.  

 

[Chump Bailey]

Well, that was depressing to read. ^

Edited August 4, 2023 by Chump Bailey

[Skinsinparadise]

Poles who worked with him in KC, after getting the GM gig with the Bears didn't even interview Bieniemy.

 

I am jazzed about seeing what Bieiniemy does as an offensive coordinator but I have some pause about him being the next HC -- I don't know one way or another but its tough for me to throw out the dynamic about his background coupled with him being turned down for so many jobs.

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/chiefs/news/chicago-bears-hire-kc-chiefs-ryan-poles-as-new-general-manager#gid=ci02982fc770002790&pid=usatsi_2243011_168390306_lowres

With Matt Nagy no longer in the picture, Chicago is still on the aforementioned hunt for a new head coach. Chiefs offensive coordinator Eric Bieniemy has had several interviews with teams for their open head coaching vacancies over the past two years, although no team has made the move to hire him yet. The connection with Poles is legitimate and now that the new Bears general manager has a say in the hiring process, expect the buzz surrounding potential interest in Bieniemy to only grow louder — even with the Caldwell development taking center stage for the time being.

[redskinss]

11 minutes ago, Chump Bailey said:

Well, that was depressing to read. ^

Hope is a dangerous thing.

Hope can drive a man insane.

It's got no use as a commanders fan.

You better get used to that idea.

[KDawg]

Let’s see how this season goes before we even begin to worry about EB as HC, shall we?