The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[CjSuAvE22]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

Meh, Daniel Jones is an incredibly mediocre QB.

I’m sorry I have to stop you there …there are zero mediocre qbs that can win a playoff game with no receivers…. Furthermore it’s ok to be wrong on this topic because this franchise has had only one (maybe 2 for all you RG fans) decent starting qb in the past 30 years so I don’t blame you  you haven’t witnessed above average qb play and it’s ok…

[mistertim]

1 minute ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

I’m sorry I have to stop you there …there are zero mediocre qbs that can win a playoff game with no receivers…. Furthermore it’s ok to be wrong on this topic because this franchise has had only one (maybe 2 for all you RG fans) decent starting qb in the past 30 years so I don’t blame you  you haven’t witnessed above average qb play and it’s ok…

 

He's absolutely a mediocre QB. Mediocre QBs can win playoff games. Hell, they can even occasionally get to a SB. As I said, the only reason he's better this season is because the Giants know to limit his passing and use his legs more. Probably because he's been so turnover prone in the past.

 

After winning a playoff game if the Giants want to keep him, they'll have to shell out an enormous contract, which is glorious, because he's far from elite and not worth anywhere near what he'll probably get. Hopefully it will hamstring them for several years to come.

 

So you can try to "stop me" all you want, it's not going to change who he is as and has been as a QB since his college days.

[CjSuAvE22]

21 minutes ago, glongest said:

Kirk, I'll put you up some stats but I can't win you a big game, Cousins.  You have played all season, its fourth down, you need 8 yards to continue your drive in a playoff game on your home field in front of your home crowd, or you go home and you throw a 4 yard check down to a guy with a defender in his hip pocket. Really?  What an idiot.  

Still better than anything we’ve had since he’s left and guess what we’ve given up multiple draft picks signed ppl and still nothing nowhere near the level of cousins this cousins bashery had to stop…blame the clowns we had running this team for that matter, reality is cousins bet on himself and won….maybe we will find a qb in the next 30 years that can actually play the position on an nfl level.

[kingdaddy]

34 minutes ago, glongest said:

Kirk, I'll put you up some stats but I can't win you a big game, Cousins.  You have played all season, its fourth down, you need 8 yards to continue your drive in a playoff game on your home field in front of your home crowd, or you go home and you throw a 4 yard check down to a guy with a defender in his hip pocket. Really?  What an idiot.  

It's why we had to move on from him....he just finds ways to lose big games, especially at HOME!!!!!

He killed us in big December games at home.....

[Skinsinparadise]

12 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

He's absolutely a mediocre QB. Mediocre QBs can win playoff games. Hell, they can even occasionally get to a SB. As I said, the only reason he's better this season is because the Giants know to limit his passing and use his legs more. Probably because he's been so turnover prone in the past.

 

After winning a playoff game if the Giants want to keep him, they'll have to shell out an enormous contract, which is glorious, because he's far from elite and not worth anywhere near what he'll probably get. Hopefully it will hamstring them for several years to come.

 

So you can try to "stop me" all you want, it's not going to change who he is as and has been as a QB since his college days.

 

Agree. 

 

Mike White and Mac Jones came just short of putting up 400 yards on the Vikings defense which finished the season next to last.   Daniel Jones did to the Vikings what just about every other QB did to them especially in the 2nd half of the season save Heinicke who was awful against them.

 

Jones' performances makes me feel even a little better about Howell going forward.  Jones was better this year in a large part because he uses his legs.  And I'll give him that he has the guts to use his legs whenever its needed.  Sort of the same way Howell played in college. 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[zCommander]

3 hours ago, Captain James said:

How the eff do we not have a Daniel Jones or Brock Purdy? Capable QBs clearly don't need to be flashy or famous.

 

We could have seen if we had someone better than Prudy if Howell was put in after the bye-week. 

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by zCommander

[CjSuAvE22]

1 minute ago, kingdaddy said:

It's why we had to move on from him....he just finds ways to lose big games, especially at HOME!!!!!

He killed us in big December games at home.....

Yeah we are in an amazing position right now at qb….absolutely let cousins leave whil his lead back is rob Kelly and wr 1 and  2 are Josh docston and  Pryor and defense  is ranked in bottom 7 in the league but also have meaningful football in December….moving in from cousins was stupid especially not getting anything for him .

[RVAskins]

8 hours ago, CommanderCarson said:

Also, the 5th round pick thing is completely over blown

I agree completely. Plus, Washington has lots of history with later round QB's.

Joe Theismann was drafted in the 4th round and Mark Rypien in the 6th round. We were able to do pretty well with them. Brad Johnson was a 9th rounder who I think was very underrated with Washington.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

17 minutes ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

Yeah we are in an amazing position right now at qb….absolutely let cousins leave whil his lead back is rob Kelly and wr 1 and  2 are Josh docston and  Pryor and defense  is ranked in bottom 7 in the league but also have meaningful football in December….moving in from cousins was stupid especially not getting anything for him .

 

IMO it was beyond stupid to not either pay him the 24 million a year he wanted at the time or if not trade him for a first and change which SF was offering.  They screwed it up

 

But, we likely wouldn't IMO be where we are today with Bruce gone and Dan headed out the door if not for that along with a series of other mishaps.  So I have zero sour grapes about it now.    

 

The Kirk move alone didn't do it IMO but it was a big FO screw up in a mix of them.   Their offense has been "meh" to bad ever since.   Attendance sank.  Now we rank dead last in attendance.  That was a big mishap move by the FO and that was followed by wasted cap moves and draft picks.  Trent.  On and on.   Heck as much as people crap on Krik, most of us would still take his win in NO in the playoffs -- if this team did that it would be the greatest victory in Dan's reign of terror. 

 

IMO the series of mistakes that this FO compounded into making Bruce a punchline level joke whwere even Cerrato was seen as better -- where Bruce had to go.  And fellow owners see a sinking franchise both as to competence and sleaze .  

 

So I get the frustration but better days lie ahead IMO.  Dan leaving IMO will change everything. 

 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[The Rook]

Daniel Jones is unbeaten in the playoffs. 

 

Daniel Jones has a career record of 22-32-1 (counting today) 

 

Daniel Jones has a career record of 5-1-1 against Washington 

 

Daniel Jones played well today, but should send some of the big money he gets to Washington.

 

 

 

 

 

The Rook

[redskinss]

Why the hell are we still debating curt kussins?

[KillBill26]

23 minutes ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

Yeah we are in an amazing position right now at qb….absolutely let cousins leave whil his lead back is rob Kelly and wr 1 and  2 are Josh docston and  Pryor and defense  is ranked in bottom 7 in the league but also have meaningful football in December….moving in from cousins was stupid especially not getting anything for him .

Ah man I forgot about Fat Rob, pour out a little liquor for another Skins legend.

6 minutes ago, The Rook said:

 

Daniel Jones has a career record of 22-32-1 (counting today) 

 

Daniel Jones has a career record of 5-1-1 against Washington 

So if we sign him, his expected winning pct immediately is cut in half?

[CjSuAvE22]

 

10 minutes ago, redskinss said:

Why the hell are we still debating curt kussins?

simple, there’s nothing better to debate since him….meaning nobody had been close to his level, no matter how good the defense is we are left with the taste of what it could be had we still had cousins

Edited January 16, 2023 by CjSuAvE22

[zCommander]

13 minutes ago, redskinss said:

Why the hell are we still debating curt kussins?

 

Cause we still waiting to howell 

[Captain James]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

He's absolutely a mediocre QB. Mediocre QBs can win playoff games. Hell, they can even occasionally get to a SB. As I said, the only reason he's better this season is because the Giants know to limit his passing and use his legs more. Probably because he's been so turnover prone in the past.

 

After winning a playoff game if the Giants want to keep him, they'll have to shell out an enormous contract, which is glorious, because he's far from elite and not worth anywhere near what he'll probably get. Hopefully it will hamstring them for several years to come.

 

So you can try to "stop me" all you want, it's not going to change who he is as and has been as a QB since his college days.

I dunno man, Jones was making the throws he needed to today. Looked way more competent that anything we've had lately.

[redskinss]

Just now, Captain James said:

I dunno man, Jones was making the throws he needed to today. Looked way more competent that anything we've had lately.

He absolutely did, but when you're used to complete **** mediocre looks pretty damn good.

[mistertim]

28 minutes ago, Captain James said:

I dunno man, Jones was making the throws he needed to today. Looked way more competent that anything we've had lately.

 

That's not hard to do when what we've had lately is Heinicke and Wentz. Jones is a passable QB. He's a 15-20 range mediocre guy. And IMO that's all he'll ever be. But now that they've won a playoff game with him, he's going to have more bargaining chips for his contract. Which means the Giants may have to give him elite money if they want to keep him. Which would be hilarious and wonderful because it would tie up a bunch of cap space in a guy who's not a game changer.

[CapsSkins]

We should be rooting for the Giants next week against Philly so as to maximize Jones and Barkley’s leverage this offseason.

[mistertim]

What the Giants do have going for them is that they have a bunch of cap space. So they could likely pay Jones and Barkley elite money if they want. But then that would basically take up all of that free cap space. 

[Jericho]

16 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

OK, so your disagreemenrt with my point means to you this does not indicate that they are genuinely jazzed about Howell.

 

Then the heart of our disagreement is what makes Rivera tick?    For me I don't think there is any chance if Rivera thinks --  Howell?  He has no positive feel for how it will go?  But what the hell lets suck it up and see what happens?  For a dude who rhetoric wise and from what beat guys say is obsessed with QB1 and he believes that's the #1 thing that felled his tenure -- in turn, I seriously doubt he's not enthusiastic about riding with Howell, if that is what they indeed do.    And in turn pass on Carr, Jimmy G or whomever. 

 

Could Grant's sources be deceiving him because no way would they leak their overall intentions at that spot?  Grant doesn't report much but when he does he tends to be on the money.  So I am banking on it likely being correct.   But I'll give you that for me to 100% buy in that it's likely I need to hear it from Keim.    And I do think like anything in life if some unexpected happy circumstance develops to make a move, they'd consider, things change. 

 

But yeah I do think they are genuinely jazzed about Howell not just based on yesterday's reports but also insiders I trust who talked about it including Logan Paulsen.  I don't think thats off base.

 

 

 

And that's fine that you're buying into the Kool-aid they're peddling. That's your opinion, you're entitled to it. And I honestly have no idea whether or not Rivera & company are seriously jazzed about Howell or not. My basic point is that whether or not Rivera is jazzed about Howell, he and the team going to talk Howell up regardless. If they think he sucks, they'll still talk him up. If they think he's the next Tom Brady, they'll talk him up. So basically I treat all this talk as meaningless. It tells me nothing. Frankly, even if the team actually legit believed in Howell (and I don't know how anyone would know that), I don't exactly trust their QB evaluations as accurate anyway after the past 3 years.

 

On a personal level, I don't think Howell is the answer. But I also don't think the answer is likely out there either. So Howell is arguably the best of several bad options. And there's at least a slim possibility he's that lottery ticket that pays off. But the free agent market sucks. The trade market sucks. Any options there likely involve paying lots of money and/or picks for mediocre level production at best. You might be able to lure a perpetually injured Jimmy G with tons of money or trade a bunch of picks and pay a ton of money for a past his prime Carr that the Raiders are annually about to run out of town. But the question is why? And to what benefit? And the team is likely out of the running of any of the top QBs in this year's draft too. I'm fine running back Howell and signing a veteran for around $5 million or so. Hell, you might even find the next Case Keenum or Geno Smith in the flotsam and jetsam out there. Odds are it turns all Davis Mills on the team (i.e. turns out Howell wasn't really that good after all), but it's better than paying paying Jimmy G $25 million to play 5 games and get hurt. And again, maybe there's something there (though if there was, why couldn't Howell beat out Heinicke. That alone is pretty telling). If you're going to get poor production from the QB position, at least make it cheap and use that money elsewhere (say to resign Payne) on address other needs (like OL).

 

 

7 hours ago, stoshuaj said:

Because they have ta have ta tank into the top of the 1st round to be able to get a viable qb.  
**sarcasm intended**

 

 I mean that's literally how the Giant got Daniel Jones in the first place

[Darrell Green Fan]

LOL that someone is actually promoting Daniel Jones. He has shown who he is, we have a pretty good idea now. And yes mediocre is the description.  And yes it's great news that the Giants will now be forced to pay a huge part of their cap to a QB who needs a lot of help to succeed. Help they won't be able to pay due to his contract, help they obviously need to be a contender as they are clearly not one now. 

 

Howell may not be a typical 5th rounder, I do believe the comment that had they selected him in the 2nd we may have a different take. But he wasn't a 2nd rounder, he slipped to the 5th for a reason.  With that said going in with him as the starter while being able to sign other players is clearly a good move for the team going into next season.   

[Skinsinparadise]

7 hours ago, Jericho said:

 

 

And that's fine that you're buying into the Kool-aid they're peddling. 

 

I hear you.  But for example Logan Paulsen, the same dude who crapped on the Wentz deal when it was done and just said a few days ago that FAs don't want to play in Washington -- isn't a BSer, spread the Kool Aide type IMO.  If he says people he talks to in the building are high on Howell, I don't think he's making it up or people he talkls to that he trusts are Bsing him.  Paulsen's info is usually solid. 

 

7 hours ago, Jericho said:

 

 

If they think he sucks, they'll still talk him up. If they think he's the next Tom Brady, they'll talk him up.

 

Agree from the standpoint of publicly but that's not the issue in hand. 

 

Players just about always get pumped up publicly from their coaches, sure.  Public versus private is the distinction at hand.  But this is about what's being said around the building. 

 

This isn't the equivalent of Jay for example pumping up Haskins publicly at the time, but the stories about the whispers in the building is that Haskins (RIP) doesn't work very hard, their scouts graded him as a third rounder, etc.  This isn't Rovera pumping up Heinicke publicly but guys like Standig saying he hears they don't see him as a starter.  this isn't Mayhew leaving open the door that Wentz might be back, while Keim saying privately they are done with Wentz.   It's not positive publicly but prviately they are going "meh"

 

This is the opposite of that.  It's not negative whispers, these are positive whispers.  Another dude I always botch his name Willinghan I think his name is who covers the team, been to camp, etc, just also said he hears they privately are excited about Howell and liked how he handled himself in the building.

 

7 hours ago, Jericho said:

 

 

On a personal level, I don't think Howell is the answer. But I also don't think the answer is likely out there either. So Howell is arguably the best of several bad options. And there's at least a slim possibility he's that lottery ticket that pays off. But the free agent market sucks. The trade market sucks. Any options there likely involve paying lots of money and/or picks for mediocre level production at best.

 

It's always of course a risk with any young unproven QB, IMO you got to ensure there is veteran backup and I get the sense right now that is their plan.

 

My disclaimer for all of this as I mentioned in Keim.  If he goes privately they aren't into Howell, I'll buy that.  I've yet to hear him weigh in strongly on this.   But i'll sum it up that they weren't selling Heinicke is the answer behind the scenes last off season, actually they weren't selling it publicly either.

 

The options are really never hot in the veteran market, I can argue its better this year than last year. 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

Standig, interesting about Turner-Wentz. 

 

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Really solid post there @SkinsinparadiseI am convinced they will go with Howell as the starter and bring in a fairly cheap veteran as strictly a backup and mentor. And I do not believe it will be TH and I am not convinced is all that great as a backup as so many believe.  This will make next season much more interesting to watch.  

 

As for FAs not wanting to come here I totally believe that. But that was then, with a new owner I think a lot of that changes.  

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

Really solid post there @SkinsinparadiseI am convinced they will go with Howell as the starter and bring in a fairly cheap veteran as strictly a backup and mentor. And I do not believe it will be TH and I am not convinced is all that great as a backup as so many believe.  This will make next season much more interesting to watch.  

 

As for FAs not wanting to come here I totally believe that. But that was then, with a new owner I think a lot of that changes.  

 

Agree about FAs but Dan still might be the guy from the onset of FAs.

 

Things tend to get leaked.  If they privately thought "meh" about Howell, that's what we likely would have heard.  And again i'll wait for Keim on this but multiple sources saying the same thing which is they are privately jazzed, gets me jazzed a little too.

 

Seems a no brainer to me to run Howell and a veteran FA to push him like a Brissett or Dalton, etc.

 

Plus I doubt they have the purse strings at least at the start of FA anyway to spend big.  And i get maybe they know this and hence are running with Howell for that reason.   But to me if that was purely the case out of necessity, that would likely leak that too because it would help the coaches as far as spin -- hey we would love so and so but we are hamstrung. 

 

Something like hey they don't have the money to spend so they feel compelled to run with Howell out of necessity but privately they have deep concerns or something like that.  But yeah following the team and following these reporters over the years I take the "privately" this is what they are saying component seriously -- becuase privately what's being said usually isn't pollyana stuff, its often negative.

 

Seems like the rap right now is Howell and a veteran to push him.  It's early granted so who knows maybe it changes.  

Edited January 16, 2023 by Skinsinparadise