The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[wit33]

As I give it more thought, I speculate Heineke is attempting to operate from the pocket in an attempt to better manage and not lose games for the team. This is a necessary step for a starting or great back up to make. Many will say it’s easy to not lose a game and Heineke is garbage, but clear growth in game management has taken place. No doubt, the run game is aiding him while he continues to work on developing game from within the pocket. 
 

My hope is he can discover a happy medium and become a dude who can manage a game from within the pocket and create/extend outside of it. To be clear, my frustration started last year relating to his unwillingness to run with the football dating back to midway last season. I’m not a Heineke apologist.

[88Comrade2000]

2 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

I agree. I’m personally in favour of starting over, top down. Who the Hell knows where the QB situation ends. I’d say high cost veteran is incoming.

Me too but that's likely not happening. If Bezos really wants the team, just blow Dan away. Overpay. The uncertainty will hurt us in the offseason.

[Going Commando]

If we want to talk about unsustainable styles of play, how about the Eagles?  It's not sustainable to never play from behind, and they are a team that can't come back from deficits because their QB isn't an accurate passer who can win against a defense sitting back in coverage, and they can't stop the run.  Even when they know it's coming like when they played against us, they can't stop it because they can't dominate the LoS on defense like that 2017 team could.

 

If you don't have to defend Hurts's running element because you've got a late lead on them, then they're not going to be hard to defend.  Double Brown and bump Smitty at the LoS and wait for Hurts to start spraying it.  And if you can put a big and disruptive IDL on Kelce, you're going to make him look old.

 

I hate it, but this is probably going to be a Cowboys vs Bills/Chiefs SB with hopefully the AFC team winning it.

[Zim489]

11 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

If we want to talk about unsustainable styles of play, how about the Eagles?  It's not sustainable to never play from behind, and they are a team that can't come back from deficits because their QB isn't an accurate passer who can win against a defense sitting back in coverage, and they can't stop the run.  Even when they know it's coming like when they played against us, they can't stop it because they can't dominate the LoS on defense like that 2017 team could.

This is exactly the issue with the Ravens have been. Their whole strategy is to force teams to panic in the second half time constraint against their great secondary. They control the clock and play the 11v11 game on offense with Lamar. Theyll grind out to a 2 score lead and it forces teams into the pass mode. But against the teams that can score and really dont care about the clock the games turn into the analytical process of Run Game efficiency vs Pass game efficiency where the pass game nearly always comes out on top. Lamar isnt the same type of passer as the other elite QBs like Patrick or Josh Allen. They simply cant win 28-28 or more type of games with regularity. Hurts and the eagles probably become the same thing.

[Ball Security]

14 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

If we want to talk about unsustainable styles of play, how about the Eagles?  It's not sustainable to never play from behind, and they are a team that can't come back from deficits because their QB isn't an accurate passer who can win against a defense sitting back in coverage, and they can't stop the run.  Even when they know it's coming like when they played against us, they can't stop it because they can't dominate the LoS on defense like that 2017 team could.

 

If you don't have to defend Hurts's running element because you've got a late lead on them, then they're not going to be hard to defend.  Double Brown and bump Smitty at the LoS and wait for Hurts to start spraying it.  And if you can put a big and disruptive IDL on Kelce, you're going to make him look old.

 

I hate it, but this is probably going to be a Cowboys vs Bills/Chiefs SB with hopefully the AFC team winning it.

The Eagles were down two scores in the fourth to Indy and won.  So it’s not like they can’t do it.

[Zim489]

3 minutes ago, Ball Security said:

Indy

Not a great baramoter 

[NoCalMike]

The way Rivera answers questions about the QB situation it seems like he is indirectly saying that now that Wentz is healthy, he wants him coached up and ready for the inevitable switch, but also feels that it is "right thing to do" in letting Heinicke keep starting until the team loses again.   

 

Now I think the Giants are a beatable opponent even with Heinicke at QB, but I also think that with Wentz healthy and on the sideline vs Howell, it is going to make Heinicke's leash a lot shorter, so maybe he throws a pick or the coaches just seem him missing too many opportunities out there, and because there is a legitimate option sitting there ready to come in, the switch could come at any time. 

 

The 49ers defense is going to be a tough task for any QB, especially with the current O-line, but I could also see Heinicke remaining the starter going into that game (assuming they beat the Giants this week) and Rivera letting Heinicke go out and have a rough half or even full game and using it as justification to put Wentz back in as the starter.

[Ball Security]

6 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

Not a great baramoter 

They are 2-1 in games where they’ve given up 28+ points, but go on about how Hurts can’t win those games.

[zCommander]

6 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

The way Rivera answers questions about the QB situation it seems like he is indirectly saying that now that Wentz is healthy, he wants him coached up and ready for the inevitable switch, but also feels that it is "right thing to do" in letting Heinicke keep starting until the team loses again.   

 

Now I think the Giants are a beatable opponent even with Heinicke at QB, but I also think that with Wentz healthy and on the sideline vs Howell, it is going to make Heinicke's leash a lot shorter, so maybe he throws a pick or the coaches just seem him missing too many opportunities out there, and because there is a legitimate option sitting there ready to come in, the switch could come at any time. 

 

The 49ers defense is going to be a tough task for any QB, especially with the current O-line, but I could also see Heinicke remaining the starter going into that game (assuming they beat the Giants this week) and Rivera letting Heinicke go out and have a rough half or even full game and using it as justification to put Wentz back in as the starter.

 

I would play it both way as well. Put Wentz in if TH struggles against the Giants and pull Wentz if he struggles against the Niners. Do whatever it takes to win and get into the playoffs. Who ever gives you the better chance to do so. If it takes both of them then I have no problem. My loyalties is to winning games right now and a playoff run. 

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by zCommander

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Hurts has progressed as a passer.  For example, when we played them the first time we had corners in his receivers pocket and he was placing the ball exactly where it needed to be.  
 

It is true that their DL isn’t what it once was, which can only help a plodding team hellbent on running the ball against them.  They definitely aren’t unstoppable as we showed, but even then - we were on the fortunate side to win that game.  Sure they want to play their game from ahead, who doesn’t? Of course they could come out of that first round bye cold and lay an egg.  Sure the Cowboys look damn good as well, but a McCarthy led team is always a team on the verge of laying an egg.

[DJHJR86]

11 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Sure the Cowboys look damn good as well, but a McCarthy led team is always a team on the verge of laying an egg.

 

Also a Dak led team are capable of laying an egg.

Edited December 14, 2022 by DJHJR86

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, Going Commando said:

If we want to talk about unsustainable styles of play, how about the Eagles?  It's not sustainable to never play from behind, and they are a team that can't come back from deficits because their QB isn't an accurate passer who can win against a defense sitting back in coverage, and they can't stop the run.  Even when they know it's coming like when they played against us, they can't stop it because they can't dominate the LoS on defense like that 2017 team could.

 

If you don't have to defend Hurts's running element because you've got a late lead on them, then they're not going to be hard to defend.  Double Brown and bump Smitty at the LoS and wait for Hurts to start spraying it.  And if you can put a big and disruptive IDL on Kelce, you're going to make him look old.

 

I hate it, but this is probably going to be a Cowboys vs Bills/Chiefs SB with hopefully the AFC team winning it.

Hurts has the best rating for a starting QB this season and only 3 ints. I think he'll be fine. You're still underestimating how good that team is.

[London Kev]

I've said before that I would like to see Wentz play again, just to be 100% sure that he's not the guy. He didn't look that good before the injury, but that could have been due to not being completely comfortable with the playbook. He's had plenty of study time lately and who knows, he might finally get it?

 

That being said, Heinicke has been getting it done lately (I'm not sure how, but he has) and I don't think we should pull him right now. There's not many games left so maybe Wentz won't get his chance unless Ron decides to put him in just for some red zone plays or something (very unlikely).

 

As much as I'd like to see what we have in Howell, I don't see him playing this year unless we are out of it and can treat game 17 like preseason.

[Zim489]

1 hour ago, Ball Security said:

They are 2-1 in games where they’ve given up 28+ points, but go on about how Hurts can’t win those games.

Not at all what I said 

[JSSkinz]

6 hours ago, HigSkin said:

Reference "will go from there" IMO Ron is being motivationally shrewd by not committing to Heinicke because Taylor plays better in an underdog role and not being a named starter.

He definitely plays better under pressure and being noncommittal creates that week to week pressure so there could be something to that.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[CommanderInTheRye]

This is why Wentz may be our best option if we intend to not only make the playoffs but do some damage when we get there...

 

  And this is why he may end up where he is now, on the bench, when the playoffs start...

 

 

 

 

A true quandary...

[redskinss]

The top play is something heinicke isn’t capable of doing.

The bottom one he has.

That's one of the biggest differences for me.

I'm no wentz apologist and if heinicke were playing good football instead of just somehow winning I wouldn't even be on the fence.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Get it to the playmakers sounds good and all, but he’s not accurate enough nor does he have the arm necessary to do that optimally.  Take the green grass in front you, dude.  

[Koolblue13]

12 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Get it to the playmakers sounds good and all, but he’s not accurate enough nor does he have the arm necessary to do that optimally.  Take the green grass in front you, dude.  

It kind of falls on deaf ears when his HC and OC have publicly begged him to run the ball and complained about him not doing it.

[NickyJ]

The coaches getting on hands and knees to beg Heinicke to freelance, Heinicke complementing an opponent's QB for freelancing, and Heinicke publicly refusing to freelance, is making me experience Kirk Cousins flashbacks. I don't like that. 🤢

[mistertim]

4 hours ago, wit33 said:

As I give it more thought, I speculate Heineke is attempting to operate from the pocket in an attempt to better manage and not lose games for the team. This is a necessary step for a starting or great back up to make. Many will say it’s easy to not lose a game and Heineke is garbage, but clear growth in game management has taken place. No doubt, the run game is aiding him while he continues to work on developing game from within the pocket. 
 

My hope is he can discover a happy medium and become a dude who can manage a game from within the pocket and create/extend outside of it. To be clear, my frustration started last year relating to his unwillingness to run with the football dating back to midway last season. I’m not a Heineke apologist.

 

I'm not sure why some people keep thinking of Heinicke in terms of evolving and changing his game. The dude is almost 30 years old and has been in the NFL since 2015. He is who he is. 

 

I'm not trying to beat you up about this specifically, but this sort of sentiment of "Heinicke's game is evolving" or things along those lines seem to make the rounds every so often. It was the same with the myth of him improving his arm strength over this past offseason, which clearly had basically no effect (just like it had non when Colt McCoy  supposedly did the same thing).

[El Mexican]

3 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

The way Rivera answers questions about the QB situation it seems like he is indirectly saying that now that Wentz is healthy, he wants him coached up and ready

 

He's the HC of the team. He needs to stay with that rhetoric bc he knows Wentz cannot lose his job due to injury.

 

So he has to give him at least one more shot.

 

But it's just that. Rhetoric. Baring a catastrophic next three games by TH, Wetnz will be out of this squad come next Spring.  

[mistertim]

4 minutes ago, El Mexican said:

 

He's the HC of the team. He needs to stay with that rhetoric bc he knows Wentz cannot lose his job due to injury.

 

So he has to give him at least one more shot.

 

But it's just that. Rhetoric. Baring a catastrophic next three games by TH, Wetnz will be out of this squad come next Spring.  

 

I doubt Heinicke needs three "catastrophic" outings to get yanked. He hasn't been playing that well in general so I'm guessing his leash is not especially long, unless the coaches truly don't think Wentz is capable of handing the ball off 40 times per game.

[goskins10]

15 minutes ago, El Mexican said:

 

He's the HC of the team. He needs to stay with that rhetoric bc he knows Wentz cannot lose his job due to injury.

 

So he has to give him at least one more shot.

 

But it's just that. Rhetoric. Baring a catastrophic next three games by TH, Wetnz will be out of this squad come next Spring.  

TH will not get 3 catastrophic games nor should he.  One loss and I believe he gets yanked.  I believe there was serious consideration after the tie.