The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Conn]

I think Rivera retiring or moving into a figurehead FO role is plausible, but he’ll get another year before that happens. There will be nobody to fire him this offseason, the sale won’t be done in time for a full GM/HC search and Snyder won’t be doing it. 

[Warhead36]

1 minute ago, Conn said:

I think Rivera retiring or moving into a figurehead FO role is plausible, but he’ll get another year before that happens. There will be nobody to fire him this offseason, the sale won’t be done in time for a full GM/HC search and Snyder won’t be doing it. 

If we make the playoffs there is no chance a new owner gets rid of him.

[skinny21]

Comparing the Week 1-13 you posted, to this one from weeks 1-9, it’s interesting to see our luck regarding dropped interceptions and passes dropped by opponents have dropped pretty drastically these last 4 games. My theory is it has to do with our opponents - 3 of our last 4 have poor (or injured) secondaries, and questionable receivers/qbs.  Of course, we were throwing a lot more early on (this past game notwithstanding).

 

Sidenote, I had to chuckle that you posted the “Week 1-13 luck” graphic, yet you comment on the tweet with a question as to why Heinicke’s dropped interception luck is so low.  Don’t get me wrong, it’s a fair question, it’s just funny to tout it and question it in (essentially) the same breath.  Did you get a response BTW?

[Zim489]

6 minutes ago, Conn said:

I think Rivera retiring or moving into a figurehead FO role is plausible, but he’ll get another year before that happens. There will be nobody to fire him this offseason, the sale won’t be done in time for a full GM/HC search and Snyder won’t be doing it. 

I wouldnt hate him in a Presidential role of football ops but it would be required that he remove the entirety of the FO. Hire a legitimate top tier GM to run things in a modern way. Not this 2002 crap that ron has us on. 

5 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Comparing the Week 1-13 you posted, to this one from weeks 1-9, it’s interesting to see our luck regarding dropped interceptions and passes dropped by opponents have dropped pretty drastically these last 4 games. My theory is it has to do with our opponents - 3 of our last 4 have poor (or injured) secondaries, and questionable receivers/qbs.  Of course, we were throwing a lot more early on (this past game notwithstanding).

 

Sidenote, I had to chuckle that you posted the “Week 1-13 luck” graphic, yet you comment on the tweet with a question as to why Heinicke’s dropped interception luck is so low.  Don’t get me wrong, it’s a fair question, it’s just funny to tout it and question it in (essentially) the same breath.  Did you get a response BTW?

Havent gotten the response yet but its odd that the INT rate is low. I know the fumble statistics are 100% correct because thats easily quantifiable. Maybe they dont count the second drop on the final drive as a drop when it bounced around 3 times. Not sure. But a non practice squad DB picks that off. 

[Conn]

4 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

I wouldnt hate him in a Presidential role of football ops but it would be required that he remove the entirety of the FO. Hire a legitimate top tier GM to run things in a modern way. Not this 2002 crap that ron has us on. 

 

Yeah I could see him in sort of a current Bruce Arians role, whatever the hell that is. I don’t think he does much but offer his input on the gameplan. But more of a Football Ambassador during the ownership transition years type of role. With an autonomous GM hiring a HC on the actual football side of the building.

 

Probably not something that happens regardless but he’s the type of guy with the type of reputation that I could see the new owner wanting to keep around in that sort of public-facing advisory role. 

Edited December 7, 2022 by Conn

[CommDownMan]

2 hours ago, LD0506 said:

Ole Moxie got y'all in a frenzy

 

I just wonder what the hell happened to TH's legs? I've seen several instances where he might have broke and run for a first down and didn't. Is he being coached not to? 

 

Howell could be an interesting option, the kid's a gamer, might have some moxie in him but you'd have to build a team and a plan around that, and just IMO it kinda feels like Turner has this great plan that players have to adapt to rather than building your plan to make best use of the available skillset on your roster.

 

But i leave it to all you mavens to figure it out, I do enjoy listening in

 

I wonder this as well.  The below is the first image that generally comes into my mind of Heinicke is the one below.  It seemed to be trained out of him year 2.  We've had talk that the coaching staff isn't always good at using a players strengths and at times I wonder if it's been drilled so much TH is hesitant.  IDK what it is, but he seems different to my untrained eye.

 

 

For those saying he's the weirdest QB ever, I always she the arguments on here like a reverse bell curve.  Most QBs people can mostly agree on talent level with strengths and weaknesses and move the top of the curve to a range of abilities.

 

TH the more one group heaps praise, the other side seems to hate more.  When the other side hates more, the lovers heap praise.  It's fascinating, because the likely case in this scenario is probably at the bottom of the curve.  

 

[Zim489]

5 minutes ago, Conn said:

 

Yeah I could see him in sort of a current Bruce Arians role, whatever the hell that is. I don’t think he does much but offer his input on the gameplan. But more of a Football Ambassador during the ownership transition years type of role. With an autonomous GM hiring a HC on the actual football side of the building.

 

Probably not something that happens regardless but he’s the type of guy with the type of reputation that I could see the new owner wanting to keep around in that sort of public-facing advisory role. 

And personally at this point in his career it would be his best fit. I think most would agree that hes at best extremely mid as a HC with probably archaic views on general overview on football.

[mistertim]

21 minutes ago, CommDownMan said:

 

I wonder this as well.  The below is the first image that generally comes into my mind of Heinicke is the one below.  It seemed to be trained out of him year 2.  We've had talk that the coaching staff isn't always good at using a players strengths and at times I wonder if it's been drilled so much TH is hesitant.  IDK what it is, but he seems different to my untrained eye.

 

 

It wasn't "trained out of him", he stopped doing it on his own. The coaches wanted TH to run and use his legs more and said so publicly last season. He just doesn't really do it. I assume he's concerned about getting hurt now perhaps.

[FootballZombie]

27 minutes ago, CommDownMan said:

For those saying he's the weirdest QB ever, I always she the arguments on here like a reverse bell curve.  Most QBs people can mostly agree on talent level with strengths and weaknesses and move the top of the curve to a range of abilities.

 

I don't see the argument as weird at all.

 

Dude is flaming garbage, but peeps get attached to their QBs.

This case of fawning is just instance 1,739.

 

We know dang well some fans will accept anything, even QB play that does not even qualify as bad.

[NoCalMike]

I am thinking the coaches are viewing the Heinicke vs Wentz QB situation more due to the state of the O-line.  I have to believe if the O-line was better, like even middle of the pack in the NFL then Wentz would be starting once he is healthy.  Heinicke's play has just been too mediocre to justify keeping him in there.  

 

The bigger question is do the coaches still see value in bringing back Wentz for a season or two while revamping the O-line, if they feel Howell needs more time to develop behind the scenes. 

Edited December 7, 2022 by NoCalMike

[JSSkinz]

I've watched lots of Richardson this year because my wife went to Jean Shorts University.

 

He's athletic but he makes poor throws, bad accuracy, and doesn't seem to have situational awareness and smarts when it comes to his football IQ. I watched him throw the ball away on fourth down and it was the last drive of the game.

 

He's definitely athletic but Florida QBs always scare me.

Edited December 7, 2022 by JSSkinz

[Skinsinparadise]

https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2023/insider/story/_/id/35180611/2023-nfl-draft-big-questions-kiper-mcshay-miller-reid-preview-top-prospects-qb-class-intriguing-teams-risers

Which teams likely picking in the top 10 could go with a QB?

Miller: The Texans, Panthers, Lions and Colts all feel like locks to strongly consider quarterbacks via the draft. Then the Seahawks -- who have Denver's selection -- could look that way, depending on what they decide with Geno Smith after his huge season. The Falcons could also go back to the QB well, despite drafting Desmond Ridder on Day 2 in April. And there's always a wild card in the mix -- keep an eye on the Cardinals and Raiders.

 

I recently talked with a general manager who expects a third of the league to make a change or key addition at quarterback during the offseason.

 

What are you hearing about how the NFL sees Levis?

Miller: NFL evaluators love the traits here. After all, toolsy quarterbacks such as Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen and Justin Herbert are among the elites in the game, and every team wants to find the next future star. Levis has arm talent that puts him in that group and the physical traits to run around -- or over -- defenders.

Scouts I've talked to love Levis' traits and believe his pre-draft interviews will convince teams that he's a future franchise quarterback , despite the decision-making issues that must improve. A big test awaits with Iowa in the TransPerfect Music City Bowl, if he opts to play after deciding to enter the draft.

---

OK, and where is the recently injured Hendon Hooker in all of this? Will the Tennessee QB's stock drop?

McShay: I still see Hooker as the QB4 in the class. The 6-foot-4 senior suffered a torn ACL in his left knee in November, and while the injury will certainly impact his draft stock, I don't think we will see a severe drop. Hooker was a Day 2 prospect for me even before the injury, and I still think that's when he will get drafted -- just a little bit later on Friday night than previously thought. Hooker reads the field really well, has a nice smooth delivery and knows how to layer the ball to receivers to set up yards after the catch. He only threw two interceptions this year while piling up 3,135 yards and 27 TD passes.

 

Who are the other signal-callers to know?

Kiper: How much space do I have here? It's a really fun group, even though Michael Penix Jr. -- who was my QB4 -- is returning to Washington for another season.

Max Duggan (TCU) and Bo Nix (Oregon) are two of the most improved signal-callers in the country, and I could see teams taking chances on them early on Day 3. Jake Haener (Fresno State), who completed a whopping 72.6% of his passes this season, wears No. 9 and looks a little bit like Drew Brees when he's dicing up defenses from the pocket. Jaren Hall (BYU) has thrown 51 touchdown passes and just 11 picks over the last two seasons. And Jayden Daniels (LSU) is a dual-threat quarterback who has taken a step forward as a thrower since transferring from Arizona State.

One more to watch on Day 3: Tyson Bagent, a 6-foot-3 passer from Division II Shepherd, where he just set the record for most career touchdown passes in any college division. He can spin it.

---

Who's the wild-card QB in this class?

Reid: This is an easy one. Florida's Anthony Richardson struggled in his only season as a full-time starter, but the potential is off the charts. At 6-4 and 232 pounds, he has a powerful arm to complement his ability as a runner, but he's still very raw and inconsistent. Richardson -- who recently declared for the draft -- completed just 53.8% of his throws this season, while posting 26 total touchdowns (17 passing, nine rushing) and nine interceptions.

He'll be the ultimate project prospect. But while he is still developing a lot of the key ingredients it takes to be successful at the next level, there's no questioning his traits and upside. His accuracy, decision-making and consistency have to get better, and a good landing spot is vital for long-term success.

 

Which other teams could be intriguing in Round 1?

Reid: Commanders. Taylor Heinicke has provided a jolt of energy to the team, but how does Washington view him long-term? The Commanders have already turned the page from Carson Wentz, and now they could be an interesting team to watch in the QB hunt. Would they try to move up for a passer? Or could they get lucky and land a signal-caller in the middle of Round 1, where they are currently projected to pick?

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Captain James]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The wildcard for most college QBs among other thing is can they read defenses and learn the pro scheme fast. I don't know about that as to Haener.  But I do know talent wise he looks like an upgraded version of Taylor.  And for those that love Taylor's style of play -- this IMO is the current college version of it.  Mobility in the pocket, tough, gritty, playmaker, moxie on steroids.  I talked about him a lot in the QB thread last year but alas he decided not to come out in that draft. 

 

Aren't these also some of what is said about Howell, whom is already on the roster? (I'm not a big college guy)

[Conn]

8 minutes ago, Captain James said:

Aren't these also some of what is said about Howell, whom is already on the roster? (I'm not a big college guy)

Some similarities, although other than height Howell has top tier NFL tools from his arm to his legs. Well, calling his legs top tier is exaggerating but they are an asset. 
 

But multiple swings are always better than one swing. 

Edited December 7, 2022 by Conn

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, Captain James said:

Aren't these also some of what is said about Howell, whom is already on the roster? (I'm not a big college guy)

 

Moxie-scrappiness style yes but going back to another point I made in this thread.  I like to throw multiple darts at the Qb spot and see what sticks, Eagles style, especially when we are talking about non first round QBs. 

Edited December 7, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Zim489]

13 minutes ago, Captain James said:

Aren't these also some of what is said about Howell, whom is already on the roster? (I'm not a big college guy)

And yet Howell dropped to the 5th. Richardson won’t 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

33 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

One more to watch on Day 3: Tyson Bagent, a 6-foot-3 passer from Division II Shepherd, where he just set the record for most career touchdown passes in any college division. He can spin it.

I promise if Tyson somehow ends up on this squad, not to become like those dudes who followed Alex Smith here, or the ODU alums that followed Heinicke.

 

Shepherd is 20 mins from my house, used to spend a lot of time out there and have been out to watch since he’s been playing for them.  His dad used to lifeguard at my neighborhood pool and he’s a famous arm wrestler.  Great kid, had opportunity to go to WVU but opted to stick with Shepherd.  He’s up for the Harlon Hill (D2 POTY) Award again after winning last season.

[wit33]

 

2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I literally said to my son last night that he’s the strangest QB we’ve ever had and perhaps the strangest QB to ever play.  Generally backups have sort of a baseline of mediocrity that they consistently play with.  Not too up, not too down.  Heinicke though generally looks like he doesn’t belong and plays like it the majority of the time, but also has the ability at times to be an elite playmaker.  

The “not too up or down” part he seems to have achieved in my view. I believe this has been priority number for him over last two seasons and why he’s made it direct focus to remain in the pocket for the most part in games. Avoid the backbreaking mistakes that lead to a potential benching and out of the league. 
 

His game management has improved, but his inaccuracy and sometimes getting fooled by a defense still creeps up. This is true to varying levels for all middling to mediocre QBs. I’d say he’s become a below average game manager working to become average. 

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Emotionally its a weird ride.  We all watch a lot of NFL and don't see QBs miss throws the way Taylor does routinely.  His accuracy is just wild.  i am used to seeing that with some rifle arm QBs but seeing from a soft thrower like Taylor who doesn't stretch the field is really weird.  So i am often cursing at him while watching some of these errant throws that don't plague most of the rest of the NFL QBs.  But then when the chips are down when they need a big drive at the end he's one of my favorite QBs in the league.

 

From my eye, it seems his accuracy has improved from wildly inaccurate to sometimes lol From my view his angles often get impacted and negatively affect his throws—this still means his inaccurate. I thought the Logan Thomas throw was a prime example, I don’t think he just missed it, the pocket collapsed a bit and he had to try and get it over the pass rusher. 
 

His accuracy is below average, I’m not debating this lol I believe he’s gotten better, due to working to remain in the pocket and throw from ideal positions more often. 

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The key though is obviously the defense and the running game has to take the lead of the dance to give Taylor those moments.  I think we are likely screwed in a shoot out against a hot QB -- Taylor got outdueled in the 4th quarter by Kirk but Kirk is a good QB.  But Taylor against Daniel Jones, Mariota, Davis Mills -- my money is on Taylor in those tight spots.   Can he do it against a good QB, probably, but I don't think its slam dunk.  but I feel great when it against name that mediocre QB. 

Out-dueled Jalen Hurts using this logic  half way joking. Wish we got the opportunity to see Heineke have a shot at a game winning drive against Vikings. 

 

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

Stay away from the super raw project types like Richardson. Other than Josh Allen they pretty much universally flame out. 

 

Nooo… this is all wrong. Take the risk on these guys. At a minimum, they will provide a franchise an elite run game/identity while the franchise hopes and prays he continues to develop other areas of his game. 
 

I like the idea of adding a talent such as Richardson, retaining Heineke, and signing a veteran/retain Wentz at a very reduced cost. 

 

46 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Josh Allen is far from the only freaky tool QB that has worked out in the NFL.  lol, i recall mentioning Mahomes on the draft thread at the time (and no I wasn't pushing him but was doing a soft sell) and recall the push back there after saying he's got insane talent but he's raw.  And then all the goofing came next about you think Mahomes is "raw" -- raw doesn't even explain how raw he is.  Lamar Jackson was bashed by some.    Hurts considered by some just a dude who can run but not much of a passer.   Freaks with mobiity have a chance. 

 

As the PFF guys among others say swing for the fences at QB and if you miss try again.

 

Hit and miss throughout the draft at QB, more miss than hit.  but for me its shy away from 2nd tier type QBs with little mobiity in the first round -- say no to Christian Ponder, Josh Rosen, Haskins, Campbell, etc

 

 

 

Yes to all this! Keep swinging! 

 

Im at the pliant to take a swing at a supremely dual threat guy, pocket/extender (Howell type), and the best veteran on the market at a great cost. Dip your foot in as many areas as possible. 
 

Not sure where Ron’s at these days in terms of how to win on offense. It seemed he was headed in direction of needing to have an elite pass game, straying away from his previous models in Carolina. Maybe the resurgence of the run game this year in the NFL will lead to him returning to a Cam Newton type model. Your thoughts on where Ron’s at these days in terms of being a run lead offense (obviously this year they’re just surviving the circumstances)?
 

 

[Conn]

2 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

And yet Howell dropped to the 5th. Richardson won’t 

He was responding to a point about Haener, but yeah Richardson is gonna go 1st round due to his tools most likely. Of course people thought that about Malik Willis too. 

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, Conn said:

He was responding to a point about Haener, but yeah Richardson is gonna go 1st round due to his tools most likely. Of course people thought that about Malik Willis too. 

 

That's what makes me think anything is possible when it comes to Richardson.  Some talked about Willis even going top 5 and yet he fell well beyond that.

[NickyJ]

Richardson being raw and inaccurate but having physical tools and catapulting into the first round after a single year screams Haskins to me.

[Skinsinparadise]

31 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

His accuracy is below average, I’m not debating this lol I believe he’s gotten better, due to working to remain in the pocket and throw from ideal positions more often. 

 

 

 

IMO his accuracy hasn't improved but I do think he's improved as a game manager. 

 

31 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Out-dueled Jalen Hurts using this logic  half way joking. Wish we got the opportunity to see Heineke have a shot at a game winning drive against Vikings. 

 

 

Out-dueled by keeping him off the field -- he had the ball many more times than Hurts.  But I do think that's the forumla to win.

 

31 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Wish we got the opportunity to see Heineke have a shot at a game winning drive against Vikings. 

 

 

I don't give him a pass for that one considering it was Taylor 4th quarter pick that changed the momentum of that game.

 

31 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Yes to all this! Keep swinging! 

 

Im at the pliant to take a swing at a supremely dual threat guy, pocket/extender (Howell type), and the best veteran on the market at a great cost. Dip your foot in as many areas as possible. 
 

Not sure where Ron’s at these days in terms of how to win on offense. It seemed he was headed in direction of needing to have an elite pass game, straying away from his previous models in Carolina. Maybe the resurgence of the run game this year in the NFL will lead to him returning to a Cam Newton type model. Your thoughts on where Ron’s at these days in terms of being a run lead offense (obviously this year they’re just surviving the circumstances)?
 

 

 

I know Ron loves mobility.  He's talked about how hard that is to defend.

 

Some give a hard time to Ron for basically not solving the same puzzle that has thwarted arguably every coach we've had post Gibbs 1.    Shanny maybe came close to solving it but that's about it.  

 

I don't think its easy to solve.  It's like telling some dude who has never had much beyond basic grade $15 wine to go get the finest champagne as if its easy where if there is a will there is way, etc.

 

Personally, I think its really hard.  Scouts have said its really hard.  Your best shot is increasing the odds by throwing more (not just one every few years) darts at the dart board.   and I'd rather bet on high upside with mobility everything being equal.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

Richardson being raw and inaccurate but having physical tools and catapulting into the first round after a single year screams Haskins to me.

 

Coming from one of Haskins' most loud critics before that draft -- Haskins' mediocre mobility was one of the reasons why I wasn't high on him.  Apples to oranges as far as tools.

 

Why Florida's Anthony Richardson is college football's fastest-rising quarterback

“You have to account for the QB in the run game every single down,” Whittingham said the Monday before Saturday’s game. “The guy reportedly has 4.3 speed. At that size, it’s incredible. It’s Cam Newton-ish type of numbers with his physical stature and his ability to run. That’s something that the defensive staff is well aware of and that’s gotta be taken into account in virtually everything you do.

“The quarterback is outstanding. I know there’s not a big body of work, but some people are projecting him as a top-10 pick this coming draft. He’s obviously got a ton of ability. A big kid. 6-4, 240-pounds, and really fast. He’s going to be a handful for us.”

Whittingham said pretty much the same thing after the game. And he was able to confirm Richardson’s track speed.

“He ran for over 100 yards and there were some damaging runs in the first half and the touchdown run in the second. He is going to get his. The guy is like 6’4″ and 240 and runs like a 4.3, so there is no way to keep him bottled up. He did the damage at key points and times in the game and he is a terrific player.”

Richardson had already shown enough running ability to be on any opposing coach’s radar. But it was the ways in which he got things done in the passing game that could have Richardson rocketing up everybody’s boards.

 

https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/lists/anthony-richardson-florida-gators-2023-nfl-draft/

 

[Warhead36]

9 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

Richardson being raw and inaccurate but having physical tools and catapulting into the first round after a single year screams Haskins to me.

Haskins had a strong arm but that's it. He had 0 mobility or athleticism whatsoever.

[fearlessNelms]

Tom Brady was a 6th round pick and threw 3 passes for 1 completion as a rookie in 2000. He took over as the starter early in 2001 after Bledsoe was injured and the rest is history. Sam Howell was a 5th round pick who is more than likely not going to see the field as a rookie- big deal. By no stretch am I saying that Howell is going to be Tom Brady or even close. I'm just saying that by him not playing as a rookie is not going to make me think he stinks and that he doesn't have a future as at least a solid starter in the NFL.