The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[VirginiaVibes]

8 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

Oooooo

 

Anybody see the story about Murray pulling himself from the playoff game.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/kyler-murray-pulled-himself-playoff-215826189.html

 

Yeah sorry I am not interested in him. I know he is young but he has issues going back to hia college days. The last thing this team needs is a QB that isn't or can't be a leader or points fingers when things go wrong. How a QB handles adversity is super important, especially to a franchise like this one. 

[Fan since a Fetus]

I see people talking about Dan picking our next head coach. I’m hoping that by the time we need another coach, which won’t be at least for 3 more years imo, Dan is canned and the Snyders become a footnote in washingtons history.

[Mrshadow008]

Saw someone propose on Twitter we trade 2022 1, 2022 2, 2023 1, 2023 2, Payne, and sweat and possibly another late round pick for Wilson. Would you do it? I say yes but I’m trying to get Bobby Wagner coming back as well. Then im immediately resigning Tim Settle. He’s played very well when given the opportunity. Then in fa im going and grabbing Gregory to replace sweats production and hurt Dallas. Then im drafting a WR in the third round of the draft as it’s a fairly deep class. curious if other would do it. 

[CapsSkins]

42 minutes ago, Mrshadow008 said:

Saw someone propose on Twitter we trade 2022 1, 2022 2, 2023 1, 2023 2, Payne, and sweat and possibly another late round pick for Wilson. Would you do it? I say yes but I’m trying to get Bobby Wagner coming back as well. Then im immediately resigning Tim Settle. He’s played very well when given the opportunity. Then in fa im going and grabbing Gregory to replace sweats production and hurt Dallas. Then im drafting a WR in the third round of the draft as it’s a fairly deep class. curious if other would do it. 

 

It's a tough pill to swallow, but if that offer would get Wilson guaranteed then yes I'd do it. A franchise QB under center and you will not miss the pieces that went the other way, I promise. You can sign or draft quality DL.

[wit33]

3 hours ago, Mrshadow008 said:

Saw someone propose on Twitter we trade 2022 1, 2022 2, 2023 1, 2023 2, Payne, and sweat and possibly another late round pick for Wilson. Would you do it? I say yes but I’m trying to get Bobby Wagner coming back as well. Then im immediately resigning Tim Settle. He’s played very well when given the opportunity. Then in fa im going and grabbing Gregory to replace sweats production and hurt Dallas. Then im drafting a WR in the third round of the draft as it’s a fairly deep class. curious if other would do it. 

Why would Russ want to come to a team he’s depleting of resources?

 

Russ and Seahawks will have to come to a middle ground on their own on what compensation will work. These kind of trades are bonkers and completely unprecedented, so no one knows what the value return will be for Washington. 
 

No clue, but my guess is Wagner and Wilson aren’t boys. 

[bowhunter]

5 hours ago, Mrshadow008 said:

Saw someone propose on Twitter we trade 2022 1, 2022 2, 2023 1, 2023 2, Payne, and sweat and possibly another late round pick for Wilson. Would you do it? I say yes but I’m trying to get Bobby Wagner coming back as well. Then im immediately resigning Tim Settle. He’s played very well when given the opportunity. Then in fa im going and grabbing Gregory to replace sweats production and hurt Dallas. Then im drafting a WR in the third round of the draft as it’s a fairly deep class. curious if other would do it. 

Nope, No way in Hell would I consider such a one-sided trade. Thats 4 premium picks AND 2 premium players taken off the field. That's like purposely playing with a Covid stricken team every single week. And then having neither the picks nor the cap room to replace them. It's ludicrous to think a team (any team) could win in that situation. RW still has losses in Seattle now on a team that hasn't given away the farm. Y'all need to think about that

[Redskins 2021]

6 hours ago, Mrshadow008 said:

Saw someone propose on Twitter we trade 2022 1, 2022 2, 2023 1, 2023 2, Payne, and sweat and possibly another late round pick for Wilson. Would you do it? I say yes but I’m trying to get Bobby Wagner coming back as well. Then im immediately resigning Tim Settle. He’s played very well when given the opportunity. Then in fa im going and grabbing Gregory to replace sweats production and hurt Dallas. Then im drafting a WR in the third round of the draft as it’s a fairly deep class. curious if other would do it. 

 I think it would be to much

[cakmoney61]

6 hours ago, Mrshadow008 said:

Saw someone propose on Twitter we trade 2022 1, 2022 2, 2023 1, 2023 2, Payne, and sweat and possibly another late round pick for Wilson. Would you do it? I say yes but I’m trying to get Bobby Wagner coming back as well. Then im immediately resigning Tim Settle. He’s played very well when given the opportunity. Then in fa im going and grabbing Gregory to replace sweats production and hurt Dallas. Then im drafting a WR in the third round of the draft as it’s a fairly deep class. curious if other would do it. 

In fact, you are suggesting four #1s and two #2s and possibly another late-round pick for 33-year-old Russell Wilson.  That's entirely too much.  That's the epitome of getting in a bidding war with yourself.  No other team would offer anything close to that package and neither will Washington.

[Skinsinparadise]

15 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

So, Zorn is a special case.  First, they wanted to hire Jim Fassel.  Fassel would not have been a big name, but he would fit into that "average" class of NFL coaches. The problem was, the fans revolved, and they heard it, and got cold feet.  And by that point, they had already hired Zorn as OC (at Fassel's recommendation) and had Greg Blache as DC, and a lot of the coaching staff was going to stick around from the Gibbs staff,

 

When they got cold feet with Fassel, they really had no good options.  Hindsight being 20/20, they really should have just hired Fassel, and hoped for the best.  

 

That really is the only completely bizarre Dan hire.  

 

 

Wasn't that the same cycle where Spags turned down the job or interview?  and decided he'd rather be the coordinator in NY?

[Skinsinparadise]

16 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Exactly.  

 

There are 2 things really working in Dan's favor if he has to find a new coach: (Assuming he doesn't get forced out)

 

1. This is still one of only 32 NFL Head Coaching jobs in the world.  And there is great demand for those jobs.  

2. Assuming all stays the same on the football front, he can point to however many years of Rivera where he did not interfere, and claim (probably truthfully) that he gave Ron every chance to succeed.  

 

Now, will that be enough?  Who knows.

 

Working against him are an ever growing reputation of mis-handling of every possible situation you can imagine, the workplace misconduct scandal, the fan revolt over the new branding, inadequate team facilities, the worst stadium experience in the NFL in the worst stadium in the NFL, and a dwindling fan base that is in open revolt over the owner.

 

The more the suck continues, and the longer the story lingers, the harder it's going to attract top-end talent, in any facet of the organization.

 

I mean, it could happen.  But the longer this stuff drags on, the less and less likely it is...

 

The differeces to me in that context would be pretty dramatic.  It was bad before but its would be amped up to comical proportions 

 

A. If Dan fired Rivera.  Rivera is one of the more liked coaches in the NFL and VERY connected around the league.  It would add a pretty big network trashing Dan coupled with the Shanny network among others.  Heck even Kyle Shanny said something to the effect that he's OK with the current regime, since Ron is a class act, etc.  So basically it would destroy the artificial bounce Dan got from an association with Ron and worse yet it would turn the worm the other way.

 

B.  The narrative of the workplace culture and Dan's own part in it wasn't part of the narrative when Ron was hired. Now you got that in the backdrop.

 

C.  You would have a longer track record of Dan will never change.  The stadium and facilities looking even worse compared to the rest of the NFL.

 

D.  The most declining NFL stadium attendance and TV ratings declining too.  Feels much more like a dying organization now than it did years ago.

 

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

The narrative that you can't win giving up major assets for a QB. Or hey maybe you can but not that in combination with a high cap hit.  Not true.  If you pick the right spots.  I don't believe in many theories in a vaccum.  Part of why I wanted Stafford was that he was clutch.  He's not an elite QB but he's very good and guys like him don't hit the trade market very often.   Sometimes I'd hate the idea of making a major move like that but sometimes I'd love it.  My point is I am not stuck (in my my mind you are limting yourself) by a theory that I'll live and die with no matter who hits the market and what the context is.  Context is king IMO.   And Sean McVay likes to say his motto is to attack success. 

 

The whole stay cool. Stay medium.  Go cheap, etc.  That works in a certain context no doubt. Especially if you tank and end up with the top pick in the draft with a loaded QB class.  But if you are a 9-8 type team, it might backfire.  You likely have to trade up to get one of those "can't miss" guys.  And if you trade a lot of capital and miss, you are in trouble ala 2012 -- also most teams don't trade away the can't miss prospects ala the Bengals turned down the Dolphins offer of three first round picks to get to Burrow.   So your desire can be through the roof but if a team doesn't want to trade the perceived top QB prospect in the draft they simply won't. 

 

Feels like the debate I watched months ago when a value stock picker touted the previous year Intel over Nvidia and admitted they were wrong. They explained Intel was the more "prudent" move, lower PE, lower risk, etc.  They took a bet with a guy who pushed Nvidia in contrast.  Nvidia with the the higher PE ratio by a mile, more of a momentum stock, sexy kind of stock with a high beta.  Prudent tends to sound wiser at the time -- its sounds more adult, chilled, less rash, etc.  But the things is the higher risk moves can indeed work and when they do, check out the Rams.

 

 

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/agents-take-the-definitive-super-bowl-2022-tale-of-the-financial-tape-for-bengals-vs-rams/

 The Rams have $44.7 million of the cap devoted to quarterback between Goff's dead money and Stafford's actual cap number.

 

 

https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/lists/matthew-stafford-super-bowl-lvi-rams-bengals/?taid=6209cec900a90b000136079e&utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=trueanthem&utm_source=twitter

 

In the postseason, when the lights were brightest, Stafford was nearly off the charts:

Edited February 14, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Califan007 The Constipated]

7 hours ago, Fan since a Fetus said:

I see people talking about Dan picking our next head coach. I’m hoping that by the time we need another coach, which won’t be at least for 3 more years imo, Dan is canned and the Snyders become a footnote in washingtons history.

 

When reading this post I had to look at the thread title again to make sure I clicked on the correct one lol..

[Mrshadow008]

5 hours ago, wit33 said:

Why would Russ want to come to a team he’s depleting of resources?

 

Russ and Seahawks will have to come to a middle ground on their own on what compensation will work. These kind of trades are bonkers and completely unprecedented, so no one knows what the value return will be for Washington. 
 

No clue, but my guess is Wagner and Wilson aren’t boys. 

It’s not so much they are boys as much as rumors have been that Wagner wants out as well. Our other biggest need outside of qb is mlb. If we are giving up 1st round picks it makes it harder to draft one and the fa market is very weak at that position. 

[Skinsinparadise]

If we get Jimmy G, top 10?  😀

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The narrative that you can't win giving up major assets for a QB. Or hey maybe you can but not that in combination with a high cap hit.  Not true.  If you pick the right spots.  I don't believe in many theories in a vaccum.  

Totally agree.  The Rams and Broncos are examples of "attacking success" and both got SBs out of it.  Manning was way past his prime, but the Broncos team that won the SB was L-0-A-D-E-D elsewhere, especially on defense.  And they were mostly FAs. 

 

The common denominator is if you use all of your assets, draft picks, players and cap, aggressively, AND you are right, you can have huge success.  But you have to be right, otherwise it's going to be painful, because you won't have the assets to re-build.  

 

The Rams haven't picked in the first round since they selected Goff with the #1 overall in 2016.  And I don't think they will again until 2024.  They've traded picks and signed FAs at an alarming rate.  And it paid off.

 

What Danny did in 2000 was the predecessor to this philosophy.  The problem was, he chose poorly.  (insert knight from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade here).  Being aggressive is fine.  But he went out and signed the 1995 pro-bowl team in 2000.  That's an oops.  

 

Other teams have tried to do it also, and have failed.  

 

But if you're smart about it, and you have a plan, it CAN work.  

 

The Rams will, eventually, have to pay the piper, because you can't keep putting cap hits off indefinitely.  But at this point, it's worth it.  They have a SB. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The whole stay cool. Stay medium.  Go cheap, etc.  That works in a certain context no doubt. Especially if you tank and end up with the top pick in the draft with a loaded QB class.  But if you are a 9-8 type team, it might backfire.  You likely have to trade up to get one of those "can't miss" guys.  And if you trade a lot of capital and miss, you are in trouble ala 2012 -- also most teams don't trade away the can't miss prospects ala the Bengals turned down the Dolphins offer of three first round picks to get to Burrow.   So your desire can be through the roof but if a team doesn't want to trade the perceived top QB prospect in the draft they simply won't. 

The "build through the draft" methodology still works to an extent.  The problem is, you have to REALLY hit on your draft picks, and they have to produce REALLY quickly.  Or else you have to pay them big money, and all of a sudden, you're a middling team trying to figure out who to pay, who not to, etc.

 

The Bengals really caught lightening in a bottle with Burrow and Chase, and a few others.  And good for them.  And for the next few years, they are going to be in great shape.

 

But I actually think, in today's NFL, that way is harder.  You have to kindof get really lucky to have the guys there when you need them and have the picks to get them, and then you just can't miss on any of them.

 

There are risks no matter what, and there's no one right way to do it.  At the moment, I feel like "attacking success" and going all in is the way to go for our team.  Unfortunately, I don't think there is going to be a dance partner.  It's like I really wanted to go to prom with one of the cheerleaders in HS (one in particular, who will remain nameless), but I was nowhere near good looking or popular enough to pry her away from her football captain boyfriend with the big chin.  

  

[KDawg]

There are many ways to skin a cat.

 

The Rams became a destination that became more desirable after they got Stafford.

 

Beckham wouldn't be there if Goff was the QB. Miller may not be, either. There was recruiting done to get those guys there (and also trades that were valuable to their teams)

 

QB makes a place a destination. They used all those assets to get guys like Ramsey there to get Stafford there, too.

 

To get a QB you have to have pieces. And it sounds strange but we may have a lot of those in place but we're missing a few. But it's close and a QB who likes Rivera could be swayed.

 

But there's a lot that goes into this stuff. 

[Warhead36]

You still need to build the foundation of your team via the draft. Its impossible to have 22 high priced FA starters. You need some quality players on rookie contracts to round out your roster.

 

People talk about the Rams and their trading of picks for vets, but they also drafted Donald, Kupp, Jefferson, Higbee, Akers etc. They started trading picks for established stars once they were already a championship team and just needed a piece or two to get over the edge.

[Est.1974]

God I hope some credible links starts coming through this week on QBs. 

[No Nonsense]

I’d keep an eye on the Murray/Arizona situation. I don’t agree with Stephen A very often, but he’s right on this one. Now that Murray is due to get paid, they’re putting out that he has “maturity issues” all of a sudden. This is after Murray stopped following the Cardinals. 
 

He’s only 24, I’d welcome a trade for Murray. 
 

 

[Burgold]

What is the first date moves are allowed to be made? When teams can talk to players or other teams?

[D’Pablo]

I would rather draft a QB in the first round over the next three years than send those picks over to a team for a past-their-prime QB in their 30’s. The Rams had years of success before selling the farm for their QB. We’re not there yet.

[Est.1974]

3 minutes ago, Burgold said:

What is the first date moves are allowed to be made? When teams can talk to players or other teams?

We agreed a trade in principle for Alex Smith in the January. So in theory if it’s a contract player through 2022, like Wilson or Jimmy G for example, that trade can be agreed now ‘in principle’.
 

Free agents, won’t hear that until the middle of March.

[Est.1974]

35 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

You still need to build the foundation of your team via the draft. Its impossible to have 22 high priced FA starters. You need some quality players on rookie contracts to round out your roster.

 

People talk about the Rams and their trading of picks for vets, but they also drafted Donald, Kupp, Jefferson, Higbee, Akers etc. They started trading picks for established stars once they were already a championship team and just needed a piece or two to get over the edge.

We have drafted a significant portion of our current ‘key’ starters. We need a QB at all draft capital costs now.

[Riggo#44]

[Burgold]

20 minutes ago, D’Pablo said:

I would rather draft a QB in the first round over the next three years than send those picks over to a team for a past-their-prime QB in their 30’s. The Rams had years of success before selling the farm for their QB. We’re not there yet.

This is closer to where I stand with one caveat. If you think you can get an elite QB that will improve your team in a major way then it's worth a role of the dice. The difficulty is figuring out what a major way means. For example, Minnesota's statistics improved a lot with Cousins at QB, but as a team they have done worse. Alex Smith increased our wins, but injury and his ceiling made our limit a one and done with him. Therefore, neither of these would be the QBs I think are worth trading major assets. I don't think Tribusky, Marriota, or Jimmy G. immediately bumps us up to being a contender. I think they get us up to the Alex Smith/Mark Brunnell level of competitiveness. 

 

Now, if you could trade for Aaron Rodgers, you'd imagine that the offense would jump up several levels. If the D straightened out we might even be able to go from 7-10 to a Championship game. Likewise, you would imagine Russell Wilson would elevate this team considerably.

 

But if you can't get that I'd rather roll the dice on the draft until we strike gold. We saw this very year that a back up like Hienike was good enough to get us to the playoffs (that is, if we hadn't lost 1/2 the team to COVID, had major injuries taking away most of our weapons. ) Therefore, we don't need to trade up just to get up to the last wild card spot. The only reason to trade up is if you think that player is a difference maker that can get you all the way to the Lombardi.