The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Renegade7]

42 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

There isn't a lot of options outside of the draft.

 

Agreed, (mod edit political reference...dude...next time you get a break) level concerning. I dont believe we can veteran our way out of this one, the good ones aren't happening and the not good ones aren't worth it, I've given up on my Winston idea with his knee injury, for example.

 

Same time we are dropping like a lead ballon in the draft.  Its not a good spot to be in when talking about QB.  Which is why I really hope we do our homework and punt if we can't get the right guy.  Do not under any circumstance draft a QB in the first round jus to say we did.  

[mistertim]

I really think we need to just leave any QB who has a no-trade clause off the list entirely. Nobody wants to come here; we're definitely far from a destination spot. So Wilson and Watson are out. Rodgers technically doesn't have a no-trade clause but he's a dude who you know will try to make it as miserable as possible for everyone involved if they try to trade him to a team he doesn't want to go to. I agree with others that Carr probably isn't going anywhere. That only leaves a few guys, and all are "meh".

 

Ryan is a possibility, though I'm still a bit dubious that they'll try to get rid of him, because that's $40+ million dead cap hit; probably better to draft a guy and keep Ryan for another year or two as a bridge QB. Teddy B is the ultimate "meh" QB, so if we got him super cheap I suppose I wouldn't absolutely detest it...but if it's true that he'll be asking for $25 million per year then that's a hard hard pass. Trubisky has talent but has never shown himself to be anything more than a 15-20 range QB, which is exactly what we already have.

 

Mariota might be another possibility, though I'm wondering how much he'd ask for in FA if they do let him walk. He might also choose to go to a team where he's basically "the guy" instead of just a QB who has to compete for a job.

 

There's only so far we can kick a QB can down the road before drafting another one high.

[Koolblue13]

4 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Do not under any circumstance draft a QB in the first round jus to say we did.  

There is zero chance of this happening. None. Ron has proven that he sets limits to spending resources.

 

MartyCo has a good QB track record from what I understand. One of them does anyway.

 

I don't think our draft position will affect us grabbing a QB this year. There is a ton of high end talent at other positions and no sure fire top 10 QB.

[NoVaSkins21]

Yesterday proved how much how badly they need to address the QB position.  Heinicke doesn't have the necessary traits to be a franchise QB.  Rivera and Co. need a concrete plan about how to address this issue.  

[Renegade7]

14 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

There is zero chance of this happening. None. Ron has proven that he sets limits to spending resources.

 

MartyCo has a good QB track record from what I understand. One of them does anyway.

 

I don't think our draft position will affect us grabbing a QB this year. There is a ton of high end talent at other positions and no sure fire top 10 QB.

 

This is what I'm hoping for, that franchises don't get stupid and do what they did last year taking QBs with the first three picks in the draft because it was a need.

 

But I mean, what is these guys track record for QBs outside of Cam?  Its not like it matters because they will be making the decison no matter what, but a little context here would help me sleep at night.

 

I am absolutely nervous AF we will screw this up, I've seen nothing else since I've been following this team as a kid.

[goskins10]

54 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

 

Don't know what to tell you, I still think both of you are wrong.  Here's an article also from Bleacher Report, that goes into their mid-season awards.

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/76637

 

Ctrl-F, no mention of Jason Campbell.  Who did they have as their MVP favorite?  Clinton Portis.

 

https://www.dailyherald.com/sports/20081030/portis-atop-list-of-midseason-awards

Ctrl-F, no mention of Jason Campbell.  Who did they have as their MVP favorite?  Clinton Portis.  They also have a positive mention of Santana Moss.

 

 

Portis was on fire and trending up for a pace that could reach 2000 yards at the halfway point.  Campbell was averaging 219 passing yards and 1 TD a game.  For a full season, that's 3500 passing yards and 16 TD's.  In no world is that in MVP contention, even if he was also on pace for 0 interceptions.

 

From google, I'm also seeing some random SBNation articles mentioning Portis was the reason Campbell was playing well, less asked of him, etc etc.  There have always been Jason Campbell fans or apologists who think he got a raw deal and could have really developed.  I'm not one of them, but it's easy to see why.  He never complained, he seemed likeable, and he didn't fold after getting whalloped by a pass rusher.  But that has kind of lifted Campbell's accomplishments in their eyes over what he had done.

 

 

This is my last post on this as I honestly don't care that much and it's in danger of derailing the thread. Portis was ALSO part of the discussion but there was definitely discussion about Jason Campbell, especially after the Detroit game. He was on my fantasy team as a back-up, pissed a few guys off as I started him a few times and got good pts, again especially Detroit. There was legitimate discussions about him being in the MVP discussion along with quite a few other players. It quickly died out as they got destroyed by Pitt the next week and we know the rest of the story.

 

Two of us saw it, remember it, and provided validation, separate validation. Believe it or not, it's what happened. Again, I am done with this topic out of respect for the OP. If it's really important we can move it to another thread or DM. 

 

 

[Thinking Skins]

53 minutes ago, Chris 44 said:

I think Terry has that ability to take the slant and go 75 yards. I just think that he isnt given the opportunity, either by rolling coverage to him or the ball not hitting him in stride where he can take advantage of his speed.

Yeah but he and JDM are about the only ones. We need more big play guys. Thomas (and now Sims) are the only other guys we can go to with a Jump Ball. It means we are preparing for a certain  style of offense that isn't what TH plays. I think his best passes are to bigger bodied WRs who don't need the space and have a wider catch radius. So I think having a Harmon on the roster right now would really help with the drives, but we need more speed. Sucks to see Perriman have the game he had yesterday because we brought him in for a hot minute but he couldn't stay. But he has the type of speed we need on this offense and the size to make plays when he's not open. Unfortunately his hands are suspect. 

[88Comrade2000]

At best, Heini maybe gets you to 8-9/9-8. Maybe you get a wild card berth, maybe you don't. That is his ceiling. It's debatable whether he gets you to the ceiling. We will find out the next 4 weeks. Best case,  He's a bridge until you find the guy. He goes into 22 off-season as the starter but you look everywhere to find someone better.

[Jumbo]

@Renegade7

 

 

note my edit of your post above 

 

per topic: here's my prediction of what we will do:  we'll keep th on the roster, ron will want to keep kyle but will be convinced otherwise and we will sign a so-so/ok vet as a 'place=holder' yet again (not a ryan or wilson) and indeed also draft someone at qb though the round we do it is pretty much wide open 

 

why do i think this? partly because it falls under the 'what options will actually be available' umbrella and partly because it's the kind of half-assed 'don't make any major or bold moves under any condition' way this staff, like preceding staffs, handle most roster and especially qb situations sicne shanny took kirk in the 4th...why?...cuz they fear being harassed, undermined, or otherwise impeded (or even fired) by the volatile dumbass owner ala shanny and anyone not named gibbs previously, no manner what that owner tells them about 'how he'll be'...so it's keep it medium unless blind luck shines on some inevitably cautious move

 

 

know what rarely changes in human stuff? their patterns

 

(the above is more an emo-fed 'hot take' than anything else and since i do have them occasionally  i thought i'd post one 🙃)

[Chris 44]

9 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Yeah but he and JDM are about the only ones. We need more big play guys. Thomas (and now Sims) are the only other guys we can go to with a Jump Ball. It means we are preparing for a certain  style of offense that isn't what TH plays. I think his best passes are to bigger bodied WRs who don't need the space and have a wider catch radius. So I think having a Harmon on the roster right now would really help with the drives, but we need more speed. Sucks to see Perriman have the game he had yesterday because we brought him in for a hot minute but he couldn't stay. But he has the type of speed we need on this offense and the size to make plays when he's not open. Unfortunately his hands are suspect. 

I was hoping Samuel would help in the lack of speed department. Maybe he still will, possible that he isn't 100% yet. Not holding my breath at this point though.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

But in general we have done little to draft for speed and we need to focus on that, and I think if we do that (as well as getting pass catchers so Brown doesn't count) we can help whoever we bring in as QB. 

 

In the last draft, if i recall we were the top team as for taking high RAS guys, in fact it became somewhat of a joke.  Mega athletes.  Jamin was one of the fastest LBs.  Cosmi was one of the better athletes as a tackle -- borderline elite level athleticism.  Dyami is fast.  Forrest had one of the highest RAS scores.   Toney was one of the fastest edge rushers in the draft.  

 

In FA, Samuel is a 4.3 and change guy, ditto William Jackson.  they sign Reyes who if I recall had the highest RAS score of all time for a TE.

 

I recall even joking after the draft and FA for Rivera to consider me because I am fast.

 

So I think you got the point upside down unless you mean pre 2021?

Edited December 13, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

 

Don't know what to tell you, I still think both of you are wrong.  Here's an article also from Bleacher Report, that goes into their mid-season awards.

 

 

 

It was definitely a discussion point at the time.   We talked about it here.  It was talked about in the media.  I know I didn't imagine that I heard the discussion on talk radio.  It happened. It even happened as a retrospect topic multiple times years later where they went remember when?   

 

I know i didn't imagine the talk here.  It happened.  And the actual thread where it was discussed was actually posted to you to show you.  Another member recalled it too.  If that's not enough for you and you think that we are imaging something that never occured even with proof.  Cool.  You can either believe it or not.  You choose not to believe it.  That's fine.  We all got bigger fish to fry,  so its all cool.  😀

Edited December 13, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

26 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Yeah but he and JDM are about the only ones. We need more big play guys. Thomas (and now Sims) are the only other guys we can go to with a Jump Ball. It means we are preparing for a certain  style of offense that isn't what TH plays. I think his best passes are to bigger bodied WRs who don't need the space and have a wider catch radius. So I think having a Harmon on the roster right now would really help with the drives, but we need more speed. Sucks to see Perriman have the game he had yesterday because we brought him in for a hot minute but he couldn't stay. But he has the type of speed we need on this offense and the size to make plays when he's not open. Unfortunately his hands are suspect. 

We have a ****load of speed on offense. We just don't have a QB that can make an accurate pass to guys in stride. It's a major hole that needs to be filled. You don't go find guys to play to Heinickes weaknesses. That's a terrible idea. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Same time we are dropping like a lead ballon in the draft.  Its not a good spot to be in when talking about QB.  Which is why I really hope we do our homework and punt if we can't get the right guy.  Do not under any circumstance draft a QB in the first round jus to say we did.  

 

I think no chance Rivera just takes a QB just to say he took one.  But I've seen this point thrown so many times by different people in so many threads that I gather its a concern with some.  

 

Will see.  But I don't think Rivera or for that matter most GMs will roll like that.  I think people might think that's what he does if he takes a QB but i think that will be driven more by their own take on that QB than what the scouts think.

 

I think there is zero chance Rivera reaches for a QB.    But I do think there is a good chance that he will take a QB that some will think is a reach. 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

41 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

We have a ****load of speed on offense. We just don't have a QB that can make an accurate pass to guys in stride. It's a major hole that needs to be filled. You don't go find guys to play to Heinickes weaknesses. That's a terrible idea. 

Or stretch the field for big plays, aside from being able to plant, get everything behind it, heave it up there and pray our guy comes down with it.  I've been saying all season that our pass catchers have been getting a raw deal when referred to as "no weapons outside of Terry".  I've been watching guys make all types of plays for Taylor when he just flings it up there and they go get it.  That's not to say that Taylor has never thrown a nice pass with some mustard/touch on it - he has, it's just not common or expected.  I really think you were on to something about his arm getting a rest during the bye, because he had some zip the first few weeks but now we're back to beach balls.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

We are not on the same planet talent wise as Dallas on offense, jus look at their WR core.

 

If I recall I was making this exact point to you last night when you were putting the loss some on the coaches.   As I said then, yeah not just WRs but several spots Dallas were so loaded compared to us it was absurd.  Though some of that was about COVID-19-injuries.  I think Dallas has a good argument that if both teams are at full strength -- they got the better D line.  But you can argue that one either way.  but the bottom line is we aren't at full strength.  They are closer to full strength. 

 

I was listening to a Dallas beat guy on one of the podcasts talk about the game and said you guys are not just down some guys but you also lost them for the year -- they on the other hand really haven't lost any major player for the year and they are bringing back many of the guys they've missed recently for this game.  

 

If we are playing with a healthy Samuel, Logan Thomas, Chase Young, Montez Sweat, Cosmi, etc -- i don't think there is a hudge disparity in talent.  QB is the main difference.  But a depleted WFT roster versus a fully loaded Dallas team let alone with extra rest?  that's no competition. 

 

3 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

@Skinsinparadise i agree with your assessment of Heineke likely never being a 10-14 QB.  Same time i agree with others that his cap can be something like 14-18, which is perfectly fine for a bridge QB until we get our 10-14 guy.  At least fine enough that I dont want us to take whatever we can get out of desperation like some are suggesting, thats not doing our homework.

 

I think 14-18 type of QB is best case sceanrio as opposed to something to bank on it.  Will see how he finishes up.  

 

I think the take a Qb out of desperation isn't a point in play.   And maybe for me to talk about this more directly -- IMO the top 6 QBs in this draft, or so they are regarded by mock drafters, are all distinctly more talented than Taylor.   The odds that we have a shot at one of them at our pick IMO is close to 100%.  So count me out of the debate of it being some wild happenstance to have an opportunity to draft a dude that brings some intrigue.  Granted more talented versus better than Taylor are two different points.  For me, i am obsessed with hearing/reading about the intangibles of these guys.   

[Koolblue13]

Heinicke isn't even better (or worse) than Kyle Allen and yall think 14-18 range? You're bonkers. He's in the "we were desperate and someone had to do it guy with little upside" range. Is he really better than Tyrod Taylor or Goff?

[PartyPosse]

40 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Heinicke isn't even better (or worse) than Kyle Allen and yall think 14-18 range? You're bonkers. He's in the "we were desperate and someone had to do it guy with little upside" range. Is he really better than Tyrod Taylor or Goff?

If he can play his game then yes. But, like Alex Smith, if he’s asked to be someone he’s not then no.

[Renegade7]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

But a depleted WFT roster versus a fully loaded Dallas team let alone with extra rest?  that's no competition. 

 

We did talk about the talent disparity last night, and I still do not agree with the idea that we came out with the same effort from the players as Dallas did.  I saw game plan predicated on what had worked during the win streak, not a team that overmatched them talent wise.  In theory, the more talented team should always win, but we all know that isn't always the case.  ****, why bother playing if it was?

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think 14-18 type of QB is best case sceanrio as opposed to something to bank on it.  Will see how he finishes up.  

 

I think the take a Qb out of desperation isn't a point in play.   

 

 

I agree, im more responding to the different ways thats being posted, like you noted.

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

And maybe for me to talk about this more directly -- IMO the top 6 QBs in this draft, or so they are regarded by mock drafters, are all distinctly more talented than Taylor.   The odds that we have a shot at one of them at our pick IMO is close to 100%.  So count me out of the debate of it being some wild happenstance to have an opportunity to draft a dude that brings some intrigue.  Granted more talented versus better than Taylor are two different points.  For me, i am obsessed with hearing/reading about the intangibles of these guys.   

 

This is key to me, of course they will be more talented, but we have to make sure that actually translates to this level.  Its homework thats over my paygrade, and I have no choice but to trust the people in charge because I'm convinced they will draft a QB in the first round after this game now.  

 

There were some posters leaning towards the bridge plan with Taylor during the win streak, now some folks want Allen in after this lose.  Its too late now for Taylor, he could win the rest of the games this season and I'm not convinced he can win back fans that turned on him after yesterday. He played that bad at the absolute worst time to do it.

 

He made some shell-shocked indefensible throws, even if I want to keep him as a bridge, which I still do, I have to accept that he's going to have games like that until he doesn't every once in a while.  Losing four straight then winning four straight, no wonder folks want to replace him.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Renegade7

[Thinking Skins]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

In the last draft, if i recall we were the top team as for taking high RAS guys, in fact it became somewhat of a joke.  Mega athletes.  Jamin was one of the fastest LBs.  Cosmi was one of the better athletes as a tackle -- borderline elite level athleticism.  Dyami is fast.  Forrest had one of the highest RAS scores.   Toney was one of the fastest edge rushers in the draft.  

 

In FA, Samuel is a 4.3 and change guy, ditto William Jackson.  they sign Reyes who if I recall had the highest RAS score of all time for a TE.

 

I recall even joking after the draft and FA for Rivera to consider me because I am fast.

 

So I think you got the point upside down unless you mean pre 2021?

Yeah, I was talking about historically how we've brought in players. It's been this team leader team Captain type player more than the athlete. That's why I was so surprised by this past draft. We've brought in guys like Richardson and some others but that hasn't really been the bread and butter

[Voice_of_Reason]

4 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

Yeah but he and JDM are about the only ones. We need more big play guys. Thomas (and now Sims) are the only other guys we can go to with a Jump Ball. It means we are preparing for a certain  style of offense that isn't what TH plays. I think his best passes are to bigger bodied WRs who don't need the space and have a wider catch radius. So I think having a Harmon on the roster right now would really help with the drives, but we need more speed. Sucks to see Perriman have the game he had yesterday because we brought him in for a hot minute but he couldn't stay. But he has the type of speed we need on this offense and the size to make plays when he's not open. Unfortunately his hands are suspect. 

I'm going to to disagree with this and then caveat it:

 

If used correctly, and with a QB who could utilize it, we have a ton of speed and some really quality targets.  (The caveat is, when healthy.  Which is true for every team)

 

McLaurin is a top 10-15 receiver

Curtis Samuel is a legitimate WR/RB with a ton of speed.

Humphries is a really good slot-guy (who seems to have a really good relationship with TH)

Gibson has (or at least had) really good speed and can catch and run

McKissic also has good speed, and can catch and run.

Logan Thomas is a really good, big bodied TE who can catch

RSJ (pre-injury) was really playing extremely well. 

Carter has proved to be a suitable fill-in for Samuel, and is fast

DBrown is a rookie with upside and speed

Cam Sims can play a little bit

 

I'm not going to say this is the 00's Colts offense, the Chief's skill position guys, or the greatest show on turf Rams.  

 

But I really think this is not "the cupboard is entirely bare" situation.  There is enough talent in the skill position players listed above to have a good offense and a lot of success.

 

To emphasize the point, if you put this group in Green Bay with Aaron Rodgers and LaFleur, I would bet that they would be considered one of the best groups in the NFL.  (Again, health being the big question mark.)

 

But they aren't in Green Bay, they don't have Aaron Rodgers and they don't have LaFleur.  

 

I personally think TH is holding them back more than the other way around.

 

And I LIKE TH.  He's easy to root for, a good story, and I want him to succeed.  But you can try all you want, you just can't be an NFL QB if you don't have the arm talent to pull it off at a consistently high level.  And he doesn't.  

[fearlessNelms]

I think we'll sign someone like Trubisky. He's got starting experience with some success and he's still relatively young. He's on a one year deal with Buffalo, so we wouldn't have to give up assets to get him. This feels like the kind of move Rivera likes and a QB triad of Heinicke, Allen and Trubisky going into camp wouldn't be the worst thing in the world- at least in my opinion.

 

Not saying that I really like it or don't if it were to happen. However, I will say that I feel like there's still some untapped upside in Trubisky and I do think there's some potential for him to be a solid NFL starter. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, PartyPosse said:

If he can play his game then yes. But, like Alex Smith, if he’s asked to be someone he’s not then no.

"His" game is a formula that's not going to work enough of the time though.  We even saw this with Alex Smith at the helm here.  Generally, he's a better all around QB than Heineke and different style.  But we all knew that when the team had to actually score points to stay in a game, it wasn't going to happen with Smith, even when he was healthy. Your defense isn't always going to give up less than 17 and the running game isn't always going to click.  At some point, a QB has to be able to threaten teams deep and not put the ball up for grabs so often when they do.  If that's asking someone to be who they aren't, then we don't have a legit franchise QB.

Edited December 13, 2021 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[Skinsinparadise]

45 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

We did talk about the talent disparity last night, and I still do not agree with the idea that we came out with the same effort from the players as Dallas did. 

 

Agree Dallas came off fired up, at least their defense did.  But they had the world at their feet.  3 extra days rest and were at almost full 100% strength for a change.

 

If I got my three hungry tigers on the field at the same time -- Lawrence, Gregory and Parsons for the first time in eons.  And I am going against a RT who while is decent is nothing special and was whipped by Crosby a week ago and a 4th stringer center -- I think i'd be fired up, too.  And that would go double when the opposing QB starts 2 for 9 and starts giving the ball away and seems poised to either fumble the ball or throw a pick on 1 out of every 5 plays give or take.  Fortunately, as Rivera said, Dallas dropped some picks.    

 

Yeah Dallas looked pumped but I don't think was a coaching issue.    Considering they coughed up the ball 4 times, its amazing the score IMO ended close.  But anyway lets agree to disagree. 😀

 

45 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

This is key to me, of course they will be more talented, but we have to make sure that actually translates to this level. 

 

 

I hear you but as we know there is to no "make sure" thing as far as reality at QBs from the draft.  As we know the draft is a crap shoot and that goes triple for QB.  

 

I'll give two examples of what I mean by superior talent.  And I'll take what some view as the 5th and 6th best QBs in this draft let alone one of the top 4.

 

Desmond Ridder:  bigger dude, with a bigger arm and better mobility than Taylor.  Maybe it wouldn't be the case if Taylor ran more but he doesn't do it -- Ridder isn't shy about taking off.  Like Taylor, Ridder's accuracy is inconsistent.  Like Taylor, Ridder's decision making can be suspect.  Would I say Ridder > Heinicke?  Not sure.  But he definitely has more arm talent and mobiity.

 

Carson Strong.   Has a really strong arm, pun intended.  Throws a really good deep ball.  IMO at least on the college level he comes off more accurate than Taylor.   More consistent.  He can make those deep out throws that IMO Taylor can't.   Carson though's mobility reminds me of Matt Ryan.  He's not a statue but he's certainly not mobile either.

 

You got me if either guy is better than Heinicke but it doesn't sound crazy to me that they could be.   

 

45 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

There were some posters leaning towards the bridge plan with Taylor during the win streak, now some folks want Allen in after this lose.  Its too late now for Taylor, he could win the rest of the games this season and I'm not convinced he can win back fans that turned on him after yesterday. He played that bad at the absolute worst time to do it.

 

 

Yeah i know some felt that way about Taylor.  I was just explaining how I felt.  But judging by the roller coaster of the Heinicke thread which ranges at times from elation to dispair -- I bet if Heinicke comes back and plays well against Philly, we will have our share of people saying he's the guy.  Not me.  But others.  😀

 

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[PartyPosse]

19 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

"His" game is a formula that's not going to work enough of the time though.  We even saw this with Alex Smith at the helm here.  Generally, he's a better all around QB than Heineke and different style.  But we all knew that when the team had to actually score points to stay in a game, it wasn't going to happen with Smith, even when he was healthy. Your defense isn't always going to give up less than 17 and the running game isn't always going to click.  At some point, a QB has to be able to threaten teams deep and not put the ball up for grabs so often when they do.  If that's asking someone to be who they aren't, then we don't have a legit franchise QB.

He's the perfect QB when the defense is on (most of the time). He's not gonna win a SB, wont sniff a pro-bowl but with some more seasoning he can be the perfect QB for Turner's system. The biggest concern is fixing the OL right now because once that's done, the run game has more room and thats where we win.