The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

41 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

If Ryan were a little younger I would be all in on him. I just don't want to put my future in a 37 year old. Also not sure he will be available.

 

With TH signed for next year, it would be ideal to bring in a young QB. 

 

Yeah everything being equal, i want a young QB too.  As for Matt Ryan, his age turns me off too.   But as a player, some I think underestimate him.  IMO he's an older Joe Burrow.  He's having a good year.  As a dude who panned the Alex Smith trade at the time because of his age matched to this roster -- I actually wouldn't pan this move albeit i wouldn't love it either.  The reason being Matt Ryan >> Alex Smith.   And the 2022 roster >> 2018 roster.  If he doesn't lose a step he'd be the most accomplished Qb we'd had under Dan.   That team is on his shoulders and has been for years.

 

My point is I don't see Ryan as the disaster as others do -- especially because I don't think he'd require a first round pick.  But i'd much rather go younger. 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Thinking Skins]

29 minutes ago, Redwards said:

If you're not concerned with these two individuals and their stunning lack of progress (that doesn't equate to being full-formed players) this year, then that's totally fine.  I have zero problem with that.  Good on you.  But I know a bunch of fans that indeed are concerned, and IMHO, rightly so about these two.  Jon Allen even acknowledged we have a lack of stars.  It's been that way for over 10 years.  I'm not seeing that changing much here under Ron and this FO so far.  This is a HUGE year for them.  Not sure how anyone can disagree with that statement.  If you do, cool.  That's awesome. 

 

 

I think that we're seeing the fundamental problem with a draft strategy we've had since probably the Gibbs 2 years. We draft for leadership and not playmaking. For years we've had guys playing LB who ran a MAX of 4.6 40s. Its like speed wasn't even on our radar. Same with the position of FS (aside from Taylor) where we were drafting for size and all these other things but never speed. Our CBs have been these guys who are big but never the 4.2 or 4.3 guys. We saw what we could get with a guy like Terry who is decent size wise but has amazing speed. We were told that Gibson has this 4.3 speed but its more like a 40 time speed, and not game speed. We had Guice who was getting big plays when he was healthy but then we noticed he had character problems. 

 

Yesterday I was screaming for big plays and Heinicke was trying to create them (some which he shouldn't have tried) but we don't really have big play guys. And thats hurting us. I think that in this offseason, I wouldn't be mad if we got a QB but I'd be more excited if we got somebody who could take a slant to the house or get 75 yards on a screen pass. Heck I even thought that Davis would be the guy who would make a play like the one Holcomb made. 

 

But in general we have done little to draft for speed and we need to focus on that, and I think if we do that (as well as getting pass catchers so Brown doesn't count) we can help whoever we bring in as QB. 

[method man]

35 minutes ago, Redwards said:

With respect, if you re-read my post, I didn't declare a verdict on how any player is going to turn out.  And what "hysteria" are you referring to?  All my thoughts are calculated before I type them.  It's not like I'm typing away in a panicked tornado all the while frothing at the mouth here.  Lol.  

 

For the record, I agree with you: you cannot in any way, shape or form figure out how a rookie is going to turn out.  I'm 46, have watched football my entire life, played the sport and coached it.  Believe me, no one understands the developmental process and the possibilities of it better than me.

 

But re-read the post.  With regard to Davis, did I actually say anything that isn't true right now?  No.  He stinks right now.  You forget he's on the field.  He's shown very little progress.  And that is deeply concerning.  For what he is at the moment and the sheer amount of rawness he possesses, there is no way he should have been taken in the first round unless he was being touted as some future HOF type player, which, if memory serves, he wasn't.  You do not take major project that high, especially when you are rebuilding and have myriad other quality options available.  He should have gone late 2nd or in the 3rd.  IF he ends up a perennial pro bowler, then that's wonderful.  I hope he does.  But for where we are in building and his lack of do pretty much anything of note on the field this late in his rookie year, it calls a lot into question.  

 

As far as Dyami Brown goes, he's got lightyears to go to justify his draft position.   Now, I played and coached WRs, and that is one position that can take the longest for a player to acclimate on the next level next to the QB position.   But where in my post did I declare him a bust or a "never-will-be"?  I didn't.   I said he is of no impact and you forget he's on the field.  And when the ball is thrown to him, 95% of the time it's very tight coverage.  He can't get separation even with his incredible speed.  He's small and can't get the free releases off the line like he need to.  For being a 3rd rounder and it being this late in the season, and with Curtis being hurt all year opening up a plethora of chances for him to grow his game this year, he's shown absolutely nothing.  I'm telling you right now, even with all the growth that can still happen, that's bad news for a WR that was drafted to be one of the main guys that takes the most pressure off of Terry.

 

If you're not concerned with these two individuals and their stunning lack of progress (that doesn't equate to being full-formed players) this year, then that's totally fine.  I have zero problem with that.  Good on you.  But I know a bunch of fans that indeed are concerned, and IMHO, rightly so about these two.  Jon Allen even acknowledged we have a lack of stars.  It's been that way for over 10 years.  I'm not seeing that changing much here under Ron and this FO so far.  This is a HUGE year for them.  Not sure how anyone can disagree with that statement.  If you do, cool.  That's awesome. 

 

 

 

At this point, it annoys me that Dyami is getting snaps above Milne. The only reason why is draft position. When Milne has been on the field, due to his superior route running, he has made an impact. Earlier on in the season, Dyami was also taking snaps away from Cam Sims, who is clearly the better player. 

[Catatonic]

I still think TH should go into next year's camp as the defacto starter.  There's nothing to lose by giving him a full camp and season as the starter.  And draft a QB in the way lower rounds as a backup.  I just don't see the benefit in drafting a QB in the first round for this team when they've proven over and over that they can't get that right.  

[Koolblue13]

3 minutes ago, method man said:

 

At this point, it annoys me that Dyami is getting snaps above Milne. The only reason why is draft position. When Milne has been on the field, due to his superior route running, he has made an impact. Earlier on in the season, Dyami was also taking snaps away from Cam Sims, who is clearly the better player. 

Milne is concussed I think.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Draft the best option in the first, grab the best from the senior bowl after that. Go after all the top FAs and throw money at whoever we can get. 

 

We need an entirely new QB room next year.

I've been a fan of Teddy since he was drafted, but not at that price. Wouldn't surprise me at all to see him on the team next year. 

 

Trubiski would be fine with me, as long as we're aggressive in the draft.

 

OL, RB, FS, LB in the draft too, but it's back to code red for the QB position. Good reminder what happens when you can't hide the hole at QB yesterday.

 

I don't know if Trubisky is an improvement over Taylor.  So he doesn't get me jazzed but I'll grant I haven't sat down and studied him yet.  I suspect when I do so, I'll have a hard opinion on him one way or another.   But if he's an addition to the draft as you express, i wouldn't mind it in theory for now. 

 

Teddy to me is a game manager, don't hate him, don't love him.   But considering Denver which has been almost as desperate as us at QB is ready to move on from him, makes me wonder.  ditto Carolina.  lol, it doesn't make me feel good that it looks like back to back teams can't wait to move on. 

 

I want a dude who I have confidence can win a playoff game.  Teddy doesn't strike me as that. 

 

As for the draft, I agree with those who say take it as it comes.  I disagree with those who seem to be predisposed to think that likely means bypassing a QB in the first.  I agree don't ever force a pick.  I am not worried though that Rivera does force a pick though.   I do think there is a good shot because of the quirky nature of the QBs in this draft one will fall to their pick or close enough to trade up without giving up the store. 

 

Having said that, I suspect they will go hard for a veteran QB.  My take on that point is kind of what some think about the market for QBs in the draft.  Some think the draft won't be favorable to them and they probably want a guy but will miss out.  I take that same thought and while I disagree about the draft -- I do think the same thing happens for a veteran QB.  I think they take a hard swing at a veteran QB and miss.  But will see. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

Agreed @Skinsinparadise. I think we swing hard at the best vets and miss. I don't want to lose draft capital for a QB over 30, either. Especially not over 35.

 

I'd be all in on Carr. I think this offense would be top 5 with him and we'd be a SB contender, especially with this defense.

 

If we could add Carr and Maye, Williams, or even Mathieu to this team, I think we can beat anyone and be good for the next 5 years+.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

11 minutes ago, Catatonic said:

I still think TH should go into next year's camp as the defacto starter.  There's nothing to lose by giving him a full camp and season as the starter.  And draft a QB in the way lower rounds as a backup.  I just don't see the benefit in drafting a QB in the first round for this team when they've proven over and over that they can't get that right.  

So this team should continue to roll with an undrafted and physically limted guy at QB, uncontested? And only draft a guy way late to be his backup, because this team has swung and missed on first rounders in the past?

 

[Koolblue13]

Reading about Carr, he swears he doesn't want to play for anyone else and would rather retire. He has one year left on his contract after 2021, so will probably extend it.

 

I don't think we have a shot at Wilson or Rodgers.

 

 

[Redwards]

17 minutes ago, Catatonic said:

I still think TH should go into next year's camp as the defacto starter.  There's nothing to lose by giving him a full camp and season as the starter.  And draft a QB in the way lower rounds as a backup.  I just don't see the benefit in drafting a QB in the first round for this team when they've proven over and over that they can't get that right.  

LOVE your profile pic!

 

"Alright: you die...she walks outta here with a severe limp."

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I expect the Raiders to extend/hang on to Carr.  If Rodgers or WIlson are on the move, it won't be to Washington.  While Ryan is a better QB than Alex Smith, he's still a freaking statue and as old as one too.  I have zero desire to give up any assets or pay Matt Ryan what he'll be expecting to get paid.  Trading assets and paying the large salary of Matt Ryan seems right up the Washington alley though.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I expect the Raiders to extend/hang on to Carr.  If Rodgers or WIlson are on the move, it won't be to Washington.  While Ryan is a better QB than Alex Smith, he's still a freaking statue and as old as one too.  I have zero desire to give up any assets or pay Matt Ryan what he'll be expecting to get paid.  Trading assets and paying the large salary of Matt Ryan seems right up the Washington alley though.

 

 

 

I get the point.  And I won't argue it hard because it will come off like i am advocating for it. I am neutral on it.  Wouldn't love it, wouldn't hate it, depending on the price. I'll just say IMO some underestimate what type of player Ryan is (not saying you) based on some of the comments I've read over time.  I felt the same way reading the comments about Stafford on the QB thread at the time.  They are apples to oranges QBs as to comparing them to each other but IMO both guys are bonafide improvements over ANY Qb we've had here.  i wouldn't see it as McNabb round 2, Brunelll or Alex.  

 

Better QB going to a better roster IMO then those other situations.  Having said that, this isn't the route i want to go.  I want to go young.  But if they do this my thought wouldn't be same old same old.   I think the context to it would be different.  But I get your point of it feeling like same old, same old. 

 

Maybe this is the better way for me to put it.  If we had a healthy roster and Ryan was our QB in the playoffs, my confidence level would be an all time high to win a playoff game under Dan.  If it were Ryan versus Dak, I wouldn't see it as a joke.  

 

But I'd much prefer someone like Carr or Wilson albeit I think its a fantasy.  In the draft, the dude I'd want is Corral.  but if they do this instead, I won't be having a fit unless they give a first rounder.

 

 

https://www.footballtakes.com/should-falcons-move-on-from-matt-ryan/

Ryan has shown that he can lead a well-equipped team to the playoffs and the Super Bowl. He has the unquestioned skills and leadership to win. He’s an MVP, a five-time pro-bowler, and has carried the Falcons to 6 playoff appearances in his 13 years at quarterback. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[method man]

I am taking Ryan if he is available and doesn't cost a first round pick. He has led this Falcons team to an impressive season without a starting quality wide receiver most of the season. 

[Conn]

I don’t think it’s even possible for the Falcons to trade Ryan this offseason, his cap hit is enormous. That’s a conversation I would like to see die a fiery death either way, though . He is not having a good year even considering that he’s missing Calvin Ridley—he still has Kyle Pitts, and Cordarelle Patterson is a more dangerous weapon this year than we have right now. And Ryan is averaging less than two total TD’s/game and over 1 turnover/game, again with better weapons than he’d have here. And he’s only getting older. He’s never been clutch despite the nickname, he MAYBE had a year or two as a top-5 QB when he had ridiculous HOF-level weapons but even then I don’t think he really was. He would be a classic Snyder mistake even if he could be traded for, a bigger name/reputation than talent. He’s obviously an upgrade in a vacuum but with the cost and the contract, no thanks.

 

Edit: And I get that nobody here is going crazy advocating hard for a Ryan trade, just posting my thoughts on the general idea. As for the Stafford thing (good situational comparison SIP even though I agree skill-set wise they’re very different), I fully advocated trading multiple 1’s for him and saw him as at least twice the addition that Ryan would be, in terms of talent and impact. He was worth it, Ryan imo isn’t. I agree that he’d be by far the best QB we’ve had under Snyder, I just don’t want to chain ourselves to him at this stage of his career—that’s a continuation of our QB purgatory imo given the percentage of the cap he’ll take up and the production we’d receive, assuming his body doesn’t break down at the worst possible time for us. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by ConnSKINS26

[Renegade7]

@Skinsinparadise i agree with your assessment of Heineke likely never being a 10-14 QB.  Same time i agree with others that his cap can be something like 14-18, which is perfectly fine for a bridge QB until we get our 10-14 guy.  At least fine enough that I dont want us to take whatever we can get out of desperation like some are suggesting, thats not doing our homework.

 

But I disagree on the talent level here.  The defense has improved, but Dallas jus showed they have more player makers on that side of the ball then we do.

 

Its the same thing on offense, we are bend but don't break on one side of the ball and barely getting by on the other.  I really like Gibson, but I'm leaning against him as RB1 until he fixes his fumbling issues.  Curtis Samuel is basically Paul Richardson 2.0 right now. Logan Thomas jus cant seem to stay healthy anymore.  And Scherff is likely gone after this season is over.

 

We are not on the same planet talent wise as Dallas on offense, jus look at their WR core.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Renegade7

[Catatonic]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

So this team should continue to roll with an undrafted and physically limted guy at QB, uncontested? And only draft a guy way late to be his backup, because this team has swung and missed on first rounders in the past?

 

 

Swung and missed on QB first rounders, yes.  TH has shown that he can get it done if he has the support around him.  All I'm saying is that drafting guys to put around him would be a better setup for the future, as opposed to drafting a QB which this team clearly has no idea how to do.  

[Warhead36]

I don't know if I can go into another season with such a physically limited QB. Its clearly hampering what we can do on offense. I'm fine with bringing Heinicke back as a backup, and if we draft someone and have Heinicke as the bridge/placeholder starter I'd be okay with that too, but we absolutely can not go into the season with no other legitimate QB option.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

On 12/12/2021 at 7:58 AM, goskins10 said:

 

Not sure why this is a discussion, but @Skinsinparadise is 100% correct. Mike and Mike and Mel Kiper both were talking about Jason Campbell and Clinton Portis being in the MVP discussion. And they were not the only ones. There was even talk of that very thing on this board at the time. It was short lived as was the teams success, but Jason Campbell's first half of 2008, he was considered in the discussion for NFL MVP. 

 

Here is the thread dedicated to the topic - the title says is all - and it is from 2008, not just recently: 

 

 

Here is a Bleacher Report article where the first sentence was Jason Campbell and a few others started the season looking like they were on the road to MVP glory. 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/87083-no-more-speculation-final-favorites-for-the-nfls-superlatives

 

Back to our current QB issue - as I said already, I like drafting a QB this year but unless Taylor totally falls apart down the stretch, let that person sit behind him with Kyle as the back-up, then in 2023 let them battle it out in camp. 

 

Today will go a long way as after two teams have put more men in the box and held us to 17 pts each, I would be shocked if dallas did not do the same thing, dare Taylor to beat them by taking away the run. Scott and Taylor need to show they can force the ball down field. Dallas has a better offense than Seattle or LV. It will take 24 to 28 pts at least to win I think. 

 

 

 

 

On 12/12/2021 at 7:35 AM, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I actually show you an article that flat out said it, and I am the one who is wrong?  I didn't write the article myself. And it wasn't the only mention of it.  I recall the talking heads discussing it at the time too.  I know you are wrong.  100%.

 

You are saying Portis and others got credit by some.  That's true.    But you are saying that negates that anyone said it about Campbell, too -- that part is 100% not true.  But I don't care enough to keep arguing it. 

 

Some talk in the media back then indeed existed, and yeah as I mentioned some fans, too, I recall some of the discussions.  Here's one of the comments from a fan in the WP article ironically about Campbell's release.  Yeah it feels crazy in retrospect.  Campbell wasn't good.  But yeah he did have a period, brief one where he was the toast by some in the media and some fans.  

 

 

 

Don't know what to tell you, I still think both of you are wrong.  Here's an article also from Bleacher Report, that goes into their mid-season awards.

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/76637

 

Ctrl-F, no mention of Jason Campbell.  Who did they have as their MVP favorite?  Clinton Portis.

 

https://www.dailyherald.com/sports/20081030/portis-atop-list-of-midseason-awards

Ctrl-F, no mention of Jason Campbell.  Who did they have as their MVP favorite?  Clinton Portis.  They also have a positive mention of Santana Moss.

 

 

Portis was on fire and trending up for a pace that could reach 2000 yards at the halfway point.  Campbell was averaging 219 passing yards and 1 TD a game.  For a full season, that's 3500 passing yards and 16 TD's.  In no world is that in MVP contention, even if he was also on pace for 0 interceptions.

 

From google, I'm also seeing some random SBNation articles mentioning Portis was the reason Campbell was playing well, less asked of him, etc etc.  There have always been Jason Campbell fans or apologists who think he got a raw deal and could have really developed.  I'm not one of them, but it's easy to see why.  He never complained, he seemed likeable, and he didn't fold after getting whalloped by a pass rusher.  But that has kind of lifted Campbell's accomplishments in their eyes over what he had done.

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

21 minutes ago, Catatonic said:

Swung and missed on QB first rounders, yes.  TH has shown that he can get it done if he has the support around him.  All I'm saying is that drafting guys to put around him would be a better setup for the future, as opposed to drafting a QB which this team clearly has no idea how to do.  

TH has shown he can do enough when we are capable of running the ball down the opposition's throat, which opens things up for him.  It's imperative that we impose our will in the run game with different looks to fool the opposing defenses and get him some playaction looks to create lanes for him.  He not only has a noodle arm but he's also really short.  God bless him, because he gets the most out of what he has physically but I'd cool my jets on building a team around the talents of Taylor Heineke.  The way we've won the last 4 weeks is not going to win you games week in and week out with any consistency in this league.  This is why I wasn't shocked to see us lose yesterday.  If we're lucky, we can do it enough to string enough wins together to eek out a wild card - but that's if we're lucky.  It's not a style I want to employ year to year moving forward.  What good are weapons if the QB is dropping balls in 30 yards down the field that look like a landing hot air balloon?

 

We absolutely need to draft a quarterback that has the ability to stretch the field.  When, who, etc. is all TBD - but I'm not about to just punt on drafting a QB because we've swung and missed before.

Edited December 13, 2021 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[CjSuAvE22]

 

6 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

 

We absolutely need to draft a quarterback that has the ability to stretch the field. 

100 percent, I don't care if we need to take a couple in the same draft but we need potential playmakers under center that can sling the ball, Heinicke has put lots of our receivers in harms way because he just can't sling the ball into them and his balls have to float in air to get to the targets, we need to draft qbs without the notion that "what if they fail". Good young QB talent is the way to building a team in this league.

Edited December 13, 2021 by CjSuAvE22

[Warhead36]

Yep. You can't be scared to take one because other guys failed. The Bengals drafted Akili Smith, didn't stop them from taking Carson Palmer and later Joe Burrow. The Chargers drafted Ryan Leaf, the biggest bust ever, and didn't stop them from taking Phillip Rivers and then Justin Herbert. And the list goes on and on.

 

You keep swinging until you hit on one.

[Chris 44]

2 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

 

 

Yesterday I was screaming for big plays and Heinicke was trying to create them (some which he shouldn't have tried) but we don't really have big play guys. And thats hurting us. I think that in this offseason, I wouldn't be mad if we got a QB but I'd be more excited if we got somebody who could take a slant to the house or get 75 yards on a screen pass. Heck I even thought that Davis would be the guy who would make a play like the one Holcomb made. 

 

I think Terry has that ability to take the slant and go 75 yards. I just think that he isnt given the opportunity, either by rolling coverage to him or the ball not hitting him in stride where he can take advantage of his speed.

[Renegade7]

2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Reading about Carr, he swears he doesn't want to play for anyone else and would rather retire. He has one year left on his contract after 2021, so will probably extend it.

 

I don't think we have a shot at Wilson or Rodgers.

 

 

I was suprised to wake up to this thread talking about Carr, he isn't going anywhere.

[mistertim]

29 minutes ago, Catatonic said:

 

Swung and missed on QB first rounders, yes.  TH has shown that he can get it done if he has the support around him.  All I'm saying is that drafting guys to put around him would be a better setup for the future, as opposed to drafting a QB which this team clearly has no idea how to do.  

 

TH has shown that he can get it done if everything else goes exactly as planned. If the defense plays really well, if the running game is successful, if the OL blocks well. If those things happen, then he's shown that he can be a reliable game manager and move the chains when necessary. But if one or two of those aren't there, we're in trouble.

 

If the defense doesn't show up, we're not built to win shootouts. If the running game doesn't materialize, Heinicke isn't a guy who has shown the ability to put the team on his back and win with his arm (see yesterday). If the OL doesn't block well, he definitely has the ability to scramble, but as we saw yesterday he seems to hold the ball way too long when pressured and he still seems hesitant about running nowadays for some reason.

 

Just because we missed on 1st round QBs in the past doesn't mean we should just throw our hands up and decide to start picking mid or late round guys. Non 1st round QBs have a far bigger "bust" rate than 1st rounders.

[Koolblue13]

4 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

I was suprised to wake up to this thread talking about Carr, he isn't going anywhere.

There isn't a lot of options outside of the draft.