The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Koolblue13]

Seeing Jones and Hurts that far up the list makes me wonder if they'll stick with them longer. It's really Hurts first year and both teams can make plenty of excuses. 

 

People worry about the DC market for a young struggling QB, but yall got nothing on Philly or NYC.

[RandyHolt]

QB desperation is setting in - its amazing what a few INTs noodle arm throws and losses can do, coupled with kicking the can down the road on drafting a QB. I wish we could have heard the bid/ask on Tribs.   I am not sure what I would offer, maybe a 3rd if we weren't so inept and it would be a late 3rd but it will be closer to an early 3rd of course. The Foles Experience coupled with a modern day OC (who doesn't have his 1000 page playbook for a different style QB) showed you can get to the big dance with a vet.  I know we have higher aspirations than a Foles and a better long term solution but that is more laughable at this point. We may be lucky to have a franchise at this rate of chaos crimes and dysfunction. Our best hope there is to blend in with the NFL old boys club assuming the Wilkinson report ends up exposing more indiscretions from other teams e.g. Grudenisms and takes some heat off of Mr. Richardhead. 

 

Ron has to draft a QB with our top pick next year, and not drool over some athletic kid. And stop drafting quantity over quality and watering down talent. We have no 5th next year because we really wanted Cheeseman or Bradley-King / Shaka Toney - basically free agents.

 

Ron wanted to lose. The best way to lose is with a young QB learning hard lessons, not asking JDR to play soft zone at crunch time / never blitz.

 

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by RandyHolt

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Seeing Jones and Hurts that far up the list makes me wonder if they'll stick with them longer. It's really Hurts first year and both teams can make plenty of excuses. 

 

People worry about the DC market for a young struggling QB, but yall got nothing on Philly or NYC.

 

Vibe I get reading NY media is they might stick with Jones.    I've read enough about Howie Roseman to be confident that he believes that an organization lives and dies with a QB.  So I think they will be in the mix.  The other one that believes the same according to reports is David Tepper, Carolina, so I expect them in the mix.  Also I've read multiple times that Sean Payton doesn't believe that Winston is the guy, so I gather they might be aggressive, too.

 

It's going to be a wild off season for QBs all around the league.

 

I listened to a Keim podcast this morning with he and Finlay among other things talking QBs.  Both guessed they draft a QB high and sign a QB like Mariota or Trubisky.  

Edited November 3, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

Looking at Fields, holy cow. I know they lost but I watched a little on Sunday and just put the game on game pass to watch in the background…

 

The play calling without Nagy made him look like the guy I loved coming out into the draft. Rolled him out, used his legs, mixed concepts.

 

No coincidence he looked better with Nagy sidelined due to Covid.

[RandyHolt]

15 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Looking at Fields, holy cow. I know they lost but I watched a little on Sunday and just put the game on game pass to watch in the background…

 

The play calling without Nagy made him look like the guy I loved coming out into the draft. Rolled him out, used his legs, mixed concepts.

 

No coincidence he looked better with Nagy sidelined due to Covid.

 

Yep good stuff KDawg. I have long thought OCs often stifle QBs development far more than we ever hear discussed (close to never). OCs traditionally tote their playbook from city to city leaving a wake of failed QBs in their wake, yet never stopped to consider their playbook/playcalling is what made the QB fail.

 

Last on display here, watching a mobile Heiny sitting in the pocket on 8 straight plays at the end of game, behind the most decimated OL i can recall.

 

Meanwhile, Heiny's play in those last 2 series probably spurred looking at Tribs, with no one giving those ****ty play calls by Scott Turner a 2nd thought.  Coaches are largely above scrutiny.

Edited November 3, 2021 by RandyHolt

[Koolblue13]

34 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Looking at Fields, holy cow. I know they lost but I watched a little on Sunday and just put the game on game pass to watch in the background…

 

The play calling without Nagy made him look like the guy I loved coming out into the draft. Rolled him out, used his legs, mixed concepts.

 

No coincidence he looked better with Nagy sidelined due to Covid.

Kind of a selling point for Trubisky too.

46 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Vibe I get reading NY media is they might stick with Jones.    I've read enough about Howie Roseman to be confident that he believes that an organization lives and dies with a QB.  So I think they will be in the mix.  The other one that believes the same according to reports is David Tepper, Carolina, so I expect them in the mix.  Also I've read multiple times that Sean Payton doesn't believe that Winston is the guy, so I gather they might be aggressive, too.

 

It's going to be a wild off season for QBs all around the league.

 

I listened to a Keim podcast this morning with he and Finlay among other things talking QBs.  Both guessed they draft a QB high and sign a QB like Mariota or Trubisky.  

Thats my guess. Top second tier FA (I don't think we're in the running for the top 3) and the first rounder. I really don't think Dan and the fans will show any patience otherwise. This buys him his contract length at least.

 

I have a sneaking feeling Rodgers becomes a Saint. Great fan base, great coach, same division as Tom Brady which I think he'd enjoy. It's a team that is a QB away for sure.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

 

Meanwhile, Heiny's play in those last 2 series probably spurred looking at Tribs, with no one giving those ****ty play calls by Scott Turner a 2nd thought.  Coaches are largely above scrutiny.

Nobody knows Heineke better than Scott Turner.  The entire reason he even has a job in the pros because of Scott Turner.  I’m pretty sure that if there was ever anyone capable of making TH appear like a competent pro QB, it’s Scott Turner.

 

Coaches are largely above scrutiny???

🤯

 

I mean, that’s pretty much all every fan, media member, and analyst does.

 

I’d place a large wager that if we were to go back in time and look at threads from Sean McVays time here, we would find you and many others ragging on him for “not calling plays to x strengths”, running too much, running too little, being too vanilla, being predictable, and the list goes on——every time we lost a game.

 

The most prevalent thing going on ES is scrutinizing and second guessing the coaches. That goes for literally every single coach and OC to have ever been employed here.

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

 

 

Ron wanted to lose. The best way to lose is with a young QB learning hard lessons, not asking JDR to play soft zone at crunch time / never blitz.

 

 

 

they blitz at one of the highest rates in the league.  You continue to say they hardly ever do it.  I presume you don't mean that literally?  I am gathering you want them to blitz the most in the league instead of the third most?  Buddy Ryan style?

 

Not everyone considers blitz = success.  Usually the better defenses don't have to send 5 guys and more to get pressure so they can keep more back to defend the pass.  4 of the 5 top pass defenses have one of the lowest blitz rates in the league including the Bills with some saying they might be the best defense in the league.

 

https://www.raidersbeat.com/lowest-blitz-percentage-in-the-nfl-belongs-to-the-raiders-and-so-far-its-working/

Lowest Blitz Percentage In The NFL Belongs To The Raiders (And So Far It’s Working)

6 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Kind of a selling point for Trubisky too.

Thats my guess. Top second tier FA (I don't think we're in the running for the top 3) and the first rounder. I really don't think Dan and the fans will show any patience otherwise. This buys him his contract length at least.

 

I have a sneaking feeling Rodgers becomes a Saint. Great fan base, great coach, same division as Tom Brady which I think he'd enjoy. It's a team that is a QB away for sure.

 

I don't disagree about Rodgers and the Saints.  I threw that out here on this same thread weeks back.   As I said then I can see a marriage of personalities.  They are both great in their own way and also arrogant as heck.

 

I am not high on Trubisky.  But will see how it all unfolds.  😀

Edited November 3, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[mistertim]

5 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

 

Yep good stuff KDawg. I have long thought OCs often stifle QBs development far more than we ever hear discussed (close to never). OCs traditionally tote their playbook from city to city leaving a wake of failed QBs in their wake, yet never stopped to consider their playbook/playcalling is what made the QB fail.

 

Last on display here, watching a mobile Heiny sitting in the pocket on 8 straight plays at the end of game, behind the most decimated OL i can recall.

 

Meanwhile, Heiny's play in those last 2 series probably spurred looking at Tribs, with no one giving those ****ty play calls by Scott Turner a 2nd thought.  Coaches are largely above scrutiny.

 

Are there any excuses for Heinicke that haven't be trotted out yet?

 

"It's the OL. They suck."    Yes we have injuries on our OL, yet they still are rated by PFF and PFN as a top 10 unit. They're one of the few bright spots on the team.

 

"It's Scott Turner. He sucks"    Week after week we see example after example of plays where receivers are getting very open but Heinicke either doesn't seem them or can't get them the ball.

 

What's next? The announcers are putting voodoo curses on him before the games? The water boys are giving him gatorade spiked with laxatives? The refs are giving him left handed footballs?

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Are there any excuses for Heinicke that haven't be trotted out yet?

 

"It's the OL. They suck."    Yes we have injuries on our OL, yet they still are rated by PFF and PFN as a top 10 unit. They're one of the few bright spots on the team.

 

"It's Scott Turner. He sucks"    Week after week we see example after example of plays where receivers are getting very open but Heinicke either doesn't seem them or can't get them the ball.

 

What's next? The announcers are putting voodoo curses on him before the games? The water boys are giving him gatorade spiked with laxatives? The refs are giving him left handed footballs?

Heinicke can be playing poorly and the OC can be putting him in bad positions.

 

I think Turner has overall done well. But he has moments where I'm not sure what he's trying to accomplish.

[mistertim]

19 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Heinicke can be playing poorly and the OC can be putting him in bad positions.

 

I think Turner has overall done well. But he has moments where I'm not sure what he's trying to accomplish.

 

Yeah I wasn't intending my post to sound like Turner is blameless. He definitely has his faults. But I also do think he may get a bit too bad of a rap because of the limitations we have at QB. He does have some occasional head scratchers, but he also does have a fair amount of plays where he seems to scheme guys open pretty well but we can't get the ball there.

[SoCalSkins]

14 hours ago, abdcskins said:

Trying to think of options if we don't draft a QB.  Are Sam Darnold and Jared Goff completely written off as busts yet?  Goff turned 27 two weeks ago and Darnold is 24.  I realize their bodies of work aren't exactly glimmering, but they have shown glimpses.  Goff led the Rams to the Super Bowl a couple of years ago.  I have watched Tua Tagovailoa play a couple of times and I wouldn't go anywhere near that guy, he sort of sucks.  I'd rather have Goff, Darnold, or even Trubisky over him.

 

It's sad, but the cupboard for good NFL quarterbacks is pretty bare.  The more I think about it the more I think drafting a QB is our only option. 

Goff has never won a game without McVay. 0-15.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

Yeah I wasn't intending my post to sound like Turner is blameless. He definitely has his faults. But I also do think he may get a bit too bad of a rap because of the limitations we have at QB. He does have some occasional head scratchers, but he also does have a fair amount of plays where he seems to scheme guys open pretty well but we can't get the ball there.

 

Also, as I said in the Heinicke thread and posted many of those quotes.  Both Rivera and Turner have said they don't think he's running enough and moving enough out of the pocket.  The whole narrative that the coaches are telling Heinicke to stay in the pocket seems wildly off.  I posted a ton of comments especially from Rivera about it. 

[Redskins Reparations]

 

[wit33]

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Also, as I said in the Heinicke thread and posted many of those quotes.  Both Rivera and Turner have said they don't think he's running enough and moving enough out of the pocket.  The whole narrative that the coaches are telling Heinicke to stay in the pocket seems wildly off.  I posted a ton of comments especially from Rivera about it. 

Initially I assumed it was the coaches for most part, now I lean towards both Heineke and coaches playing a role in Heineke being inconsistent with his willingness to run. The narrative during the off season was Heineke needed to protect himself better and prove he could stay on the field. Is that the coaches saying to it run? No, but my assumption is that the coaches believed him running and taking unnecessary hits/going all out every play were of primary concern. 
 

Also, if they believe that then why no QB run designer stuff in the game plans or ROs?? 
 

From the moment Heineke stored on the field I thought the mentality should’ve been to maximize the dude and scrap for every win using every ounce of his abilities, but they have seemed to settle for mediocre/safe route.

 

My hope was a Doug Flutie in 1999 with the Bills type season and approach. Didn’t end well for Flutie but they scraped out a playoff season. Man, Flutie watching today’s NFL must think to himself what could’ve been. He was dynamic. 

[Skinsinparadise]

25 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Initially I assumed it was the coaches for most part, now I lean towards both Heineke and coaches playing a role in Heineke being inconsistent with his willingness to run. The narrative during the off season was Heineke needed to protect himself better and prove he could stay on the field. Is that the coaches saying to it run? No, but my assumption is that the coaches believed him running and taking unnecessary hits/going all out every play were of primary concern. 

 

I don't think its too complicated.  It's clear that the coaches are the ones pushing him to slide (Russell Wilson style) versus take body hits on the move (RG3) style.  But I've heard Ron enough and to a lesser extent Turner (but he did say it in one interview) to know that they are outright frustrated that he isn't running enough to know that's Taylor doing it.

 

Ron though defended him in one interview saying he thought Taylor was hesitant in a game maybe because the defense had a spy to try to keep him in the pocket.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

We’re gonna have to get our hands on one of these babies.

[RandyHolt]

20 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Nobody knows Heineke better than Scott Turner.  The entire reason he even has a job in the pros because of Scott Turner.  I’m pretty sure that if there was ever anyone capable of making TH appear like a competent pro QB, it’s Scott Turner.

 

Coaches are largely above scrutiny???

🤯

 

I mean, that’s pretty much all every fan, media member, and analyst does.

 

I’d place a large wager that if we were to go back in time and look at threads from Sean McVays time here, we would find you and many others ragging on him for “not calling plays to x strengths”, running too much, running too little, being too vanilla, being predictable, and the list goes on——every time we lost a game.

 

The most prevalent thing going on ES is scrutinizing and second guessing the coaches. That goes for literally every single coach and OC to have ever been employed here.

Fair enough and I do think I point the finger at coaching more than most. But QBs notoriously take then fall when they fail. I can't recall an OC ever taking full blame for a top college QB failing in the pros.

 

Maybe its the owners that don't hold coaches responsible enough, but are in a tough spot as coaches need time, and the owner is not the expert in the room.

Edited November 4, 2021 by RandyHolt

[Skinsinparadise]

20 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

I can't recall an OC ever taking full blame for a top college QB failing in the pros.

 

 

I read a great book from Bruce Arians about QBs who fail and succeed in the pros.  His point echoes much of what Gibbs among other coaches have said.   Succeeding in the NFL is hard for a QB for multiple reasons but a key reason is work ethic-committment. 

 

They go don't sleep on the Qbs work ethic and committment to the craft as reasons for success and failure.   A good Qb typically cannot be denied.  Eventually they tend to succeed.  

 

I doubt there are many college Qbs who failed in the pros where the OC deserves full blame for their failures.  Most QBs have a 2nd chance.  If Jason Campbell fails here maybe the Raiders can fix him or the Browns.  Or take Gabbert, he's had plenty of shots.  So many were blaming Gase for Darnold's lack of success, saying hey Carolina's offensive guru will fix him, well so far he hasn't fixed him. 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[RandyHolt]

I seem to recall fan consensus being that Patrick Ramsey got tossed to the wolves aka no pass pro yet forced to stand in the pocket.  Became deer in the headlights and just froze and got run over proper 3 times in a row until the coach yanked him in a daze.

 

Maybe it was Heath Shuler....

Edited November 4, 2021 by RandyHolt

[Renegade7]

ARod caught covid and wasn't vaccinated.  Scratch that bamma off the list, I dont care why hes not vaccinated, we jus went through that crap this offseason even after Rivera survived cancer in 2020.

[mistertim]

51 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

ARod caught covid and wasn't vaccinated.  Scratch that bamma off the list, I dont care why hes not vaccinated, we jus went through that crap this offseason even after Rivera survived cancer in 2020.

 

The ****stick also straight up lied and tried to make it sound like he was vaccinated. When he was asked in a presser in the offseason he said he was "immunized" but apparently he had gotten some bull**** ass "homeopathic" treatment and not a real vaccine. He then proceeded to do all sorts of things without a mask, even though he was required to wear one if he hadn't been vaccinated due to the NFL's COVID policies.

 

I wasn't all that interested in him before, because I think that while he's clearly an amazing QB he's just a complete ass-clown as a person. But this goes beyond ass-clownery and into dangerous lying asshole who doesn't give a **** about anyone but himself territory.

[tomwvr]

On 11/3/2021 at 9:38 AM, RandyHolt said:

 

Yep good stuff KDawg. I have long thought OCs often stifle QBs development far more than we ever hear discussed (close to never). OCs traditionally tote their playbook from city to city leaving a wake of failed QBs in their wake, yet never stopped to consider their playbook/playcalling is what made the QB fail.

 

Last on display here, watching a mobile Heiny sitting in the pocket on 8 straight plays at the end of game, behind the most decimated OL i can recall.

 

Meanwhile, Heiny's play in those last 2 series probably spurred looking at Tribs, with no one giving those ****ty play calls by Scott Turner a 2nd thought.  Coaches are largely above scrutiny.

I was calling for them to move TH in the pocket or roll him out all game. They did very little with that portion of the game plan to help him.

[Koolblue13]

3 minutes ago, tomwvr said:

I was calling for them to move TH in the pocket or roll him out all game. They did very little with that portion of the game plan to help him.

Because he can't throw an accurate pass longer than 5 yards unless he can stop, plant his feet and then throw. You take that away when you roll him out, which is why when we do do that, the receiver is generally only a few yards north of him. Like the 4rth down play last week that Simmons blew up from the deep middle of the field. 

 

I have a hard time thinking Turner is holding Heinicke back.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, Koolblue13 said:

Because he can't throw an accurate pass longer than 5 yards unless he can stop, plant his feet and then throw. You take that away when you roll him out, which is why when we do do that, the receiver is generally only a few yards north of him. Like the 4rth down play last week that Simmons blew up from the deep middle of the field. 

 

I have a hard time thinking Turner is holding Heinicke back.

I agree with the entire post, but in regards to the bolded part:

 

Who in the NFL knows TH better than Scott Turner?  He's the entire reason TH is here to begin with.  It's like some folks here believe that Scott Turner is deliberately setting him up to fail, as if that makes sense.