The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[CommanderInTheRye]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

QBs who are presented as a run threat all get hurt.

 

Generally true. 

 

However, if memory serves (and I don't mind anyone correcting me if I'm wrong) prime Russell Wilson was a very notable exception. I don't recall young Russ missing significant time for running related injuries.

 

He was the best qb I've seen at gashing a defense for a big play, and if a defender got close to him, even if he could get another 5 or so yards, he'd gracefully slide before they had a chance to legally touch him.

 

The frustration of those defensive players who almost got him was beautiful to behold.

 

If Daniels could learn to approximate Wilson's level of control and restraint, when running, he would be a formidable weapon.

 

Edited April 2 by CommanderInTheRye

[Voice_of_Reason]

4 minutes ago, Dah-Dee said:

 

Jags: Dual threat QBs are fun!

 

VoR:

 

Literally zero dual threat QBs have ever won anything to this day. 
 

I guess that’s not exactly true. Lamar has 2 MVPs. 
 

Thats it.  Not one has won a SB. Only 1 has played in one, Hurts last year.  Unless you count McNabb.  But I don’t.  He was a pass-first Reid QB. 
 

This isn’t a “get off my lawn” thing.  This is a “you win in the NFL from the pocket for the last 50 years” thing.  It’s still true. Mahomes is first a pocket QB.  So are Herbert and Burrow.  And Purdy. And Tua. And Dak. And Kirk.  And Stafford.  And Goff.  
 

Josh Allen, he’s one you could point to as dual threat. Though I almost put him in his own category of “completely crazy”
 

The modern NFL is dominated by pass first QBs.  
 

Lamar is special.  Hurts is very good.  Murray exists.  Fields stinks.  That’s the list of dual threat QBs.  

[Jags]

9 minutes ago, Dah-Dee said:

Jags: Dual threat QBs are fun!

 

Right.  Fun.  I prefer the same kinds of QBs VOR does.  Guys like Marino and Roethlisberger who would find the 1 square foot of space inside the pocket, stand on it, and get the ball where they wanted it to go, no matter what chaos was going on around them.  But the duel threat guys are fun to watch.  Then we got one and he was an egomaniacal injury machine and now I have PTSD and pleasepleaseplease don't put me through that again... 

 

15 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I also really enjoyed Elway because while he could stand still and crush you with his arm, he was such a spectacular athlete he could do anything.

 

I see your Elway and raise you a Steve Young.

 

16 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

The guy who threw the absolute prettiest ball I’ve ever seen was Warren Moon.

 

Legend.  People don't talk about him enough.

[Voice_of_Reason]

Just now, CommanderInTheRye said:

 

Generally true. 

 

However, if memory serves (and I don't mind anyone correcting me if I'm wrong) prime Russell Wilson was a very notable exception. 

 

He was the best I've seen at ripping a defense for a big play and if a defender got close to him, even if he could get another 5 or so yards, he'd gracefully slide before they had a chance to legally touch him.

 

The frustration of those defensive players who almost got him was beautiful to behold.

 

If Daniels could learn to approximate Wilson's level control and restraint, when running, he would be a formidable weapon.

See, that’s a good point.  But Wilson, at least to me, was a pocket QB who scrambled a lot.  They called some, but not a ton, of designed QB runs.  He was primarily a very mobile pocket QB.  At least to my memory. 
 

And when he broke the picket he was primary looking to throw, then run.

 

Maybe not in year 1.  But shortly thereafter I always thought of him as a passer first who could run and make things happen, not a QB who you had as a huge part of the designed run game.  
 

But it’s possible my memory is off on that.  
 

 

[TheBigJourney]

3 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Murray exists.

 Murray is very good, I have no idea why some people don’t think so

[illone]

5 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Literally zero dual threat QBs have ever won anything to this day. 

 

Steve Young?

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 minute ago, Jags said:

I see your Elway and raise you a Steve Young.

Young was more mobile but had 3/4 of Elway arm talent.  He might have had the best arm in the history if the NFL.  
 

Every so often I’ll watch some 1980’s Elway highlights and the velocity and accuracy of peak Elway might never be matched.  
 

Marino came close. Mahomes has a cannon.  But Elway might be the best ever in that regard. 

3 minutes ago, TheBigJourney said:

 Murray is very good, I have no idea why some people don’t think so

Because he’s not really good?

[FootballZombie]

Pretty sure the year they won it all Russ had career highs in carries and yards. Like 800+ or something like that...

[CommanderInTheRye]

Just now, Voice_of_Reason said:

But it’s possible my memory is off on that.  

 

 

My recollection is you're right that he was primarily a scrambler looking to extend the play so he could pass.

 

However, he did run more than the avg. qb, but certainly not as much as say Lanar or Griffin.

 

So he's somewhere in between a running qb and a pure pocket passer.

 

So perhaps, this is the rare instance where we both are right and to a degree wrong. lol

 

I guess what I'm hoping is if we do draft Daniels that he adapts his go for broke (literally) running style otherwise we have a repeat of 2012.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 minute ago, illone said:

 

Steve Young?

Young was not a dual threat QB.  He was the epitome of a WCO drop back QB.  
 

He could just do Houdini acts better than just about anybody.  
 

But they rarely presented him as a run threat.  He could run but they were all

scrambles. 
 

Ironically, if he played today, some bozo OC would try to use his legs more and get him killed, instead of realizing he might be one of the single smartest QBs to ever play. 
 

I remember he said he was talking to Bill Walsh at one point and said, “I can’t see the guy because of the OL.”

 

And Walsh said “You just have to know where he’s going to be and throw it on time.”

 

And he did.  

4 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

Pretty sure the year they won it all Russ had career highs in carries and yards. Like 800+ or something like that...

Yeah but I think a lot of that was not on designed stuff.  Some was.  Also, that was REALLY early in his career.

 

However, I concede the point.  Wilson can be considered a dual threat QB, and has won 1 SB. Player in another.

 

Were now at 56-1.

 

I forgot Cam.  He played in one and lost and his career was like 5 years of good play.  

[Jags]

1 minute ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Young was more mobile but had 3/4 of Elway arm talent.

 

I think it's closer than that, but the one thing you can definitely say is that Elway did it without the tools that Young had around him.  Elway dragged that team to the playoffs and championship games by himself a lot of the time.  Thank God they finally put a real offense around him at the end.  Miami never did with Marino, who I think maybe had the best arm ever.  But to each his own.  

 

I like the warriors, and Young and Elway are definitely on that list.  Kelly comes to mind, McNabb had it for a while there...  Anyway, the type of guys you'd choose to start a game for you with your life on the line; the ones that leave it all on the field, 24/7.

 

Like receivers...  Moss might be the best pure specimen ever, but that dude took games off; delighted in not putting in the effort when he got pissed.  Screw that guy.  TO came with a lot of drama, too, but he brought it on gameday every time.  Rice.  Megatron.  Fitzgerald.  Monk, for that matter.  Gamers.

[jg77]

17 minutes ago, TheBigJourney said:

 Murray is very good, I have no idea why some people don’t think so

Underrated. I'd rather have Kyler than Bortles or Sam Darnold.

 

I'd rather have Lamar than Justin Herbert.

 

For all the talk that dual threat QBs don't win superbowls...well there isn't that many of them. If your name isn't Brady or Mahomes then ya most likely ain't winning a Superbowl anyway.

[mistertim]

27 minutes ago, CommanderInTheRye said:

My recollection is you're right that he was primarily a scrambler looking to extend the play so he could pass.

 

However, he did run more than the avg. qb, but certainly not as much as say Lanar or Griffin.

 

So he's somewhere in between a running qb and a pure pocket passer.

 

So perhaps, this is the rare instance where we both are right and to a degree wrong. lol

 

I guess what I'm hoping is if we do draft Daniels that he adapts his go for broke (literally) running style otherwise we have a repeat of 2012.

 

This is why I always differentiate between a "dual threat QB" and a "running QB". IMO guys like Wilson, Allen, Mahomes, etc. are dual threat QBs. Guys like Lamar, Richardson (though his NFL sample size is really small so far) and Cam are running QBs.

 

To me, dual threat QBs are passers first, scramblers second, runners third. Running  QBs are usually the opposite. When running QBs get their ability to run shut down or hampered by a good defense or defensive plan, they often become pretty ineffective because they're only mediocre pocket passers. Which is exactly what happened to Lamar in the championship game.

 

Can Daniels be a dual threat vs running QB in the NFL? I don't know. If he can, then I think he can be very good. But his issue there is the very high percentage of times that he pulls his eyes down and looks to run as soon as he gets pressured and/or breaks the pocket (often with guys open down the field).

 

If he can't change that instinct then IMO he'll end up as mostly a running QB and it will only be a matter of time before he gets injured and/or loses a couple steps naturally.

Edited April 2 by mistertim

[Myzhi-]

Patrick Mahomes is a dual threat QB coming out of high school and college.  Just because he doesn’t run as much doesn’t mean he isn’t.  

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

32 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Young was not a dual threat QB.  He was the epitome of a WCO drop back QB. 

Your conflating dual threat with run first. He was definitely a dual threat. A lot of the most successful quarterbacks in the league right now, I would classify as dual threats, but in the same sense that Drake Maye is a dual threat. Big guys with huge arms that can also run… That is the most common profile of the successful quarterbacks that you see in the NFL right now. That’s Drake Maye.

Edited April 2 by Sacks 'n' Stuff

[Llevron]

 

[The Consigliere]

6 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Do you know what the folks on that list all have in common?

 

Zero Superbowl appearances.  I could be wrong, but I don't think Cunningham or Vick ever got to a championship game.  Unless my memory is faulty, Lamar got to one, and lost.

 

This is the thing I keep harping on which is counter to the argument about dual-threat QBs: yes, they put defenses in a tough spot to defend them.  But the QBs who win championships control the game from inside the pocket and then have the ability to extend plays when necessary. Here are the list of SB winning QBs.  Find me ONE who was a dual threat QB. The answer is none.  What they all have is the ability to control the game from the pocket, move in the pocket when necessary, and some have a better ability to extend plays and get yards with their legs (Mahomes, Rodgers, Favre, Elway, Steve Young jump out as the QBs who were very athletic in extending plays and picking up yards when needed with their legs.)......

 

 

The media is fascinated with the dual threat QB.  I don't think the NFL is.  I could be wrong.  

 

Until proven otherwise, I still think you win from the pocket.  

I disagree. I think the league is quite interested. 

 

I also think the list isn't terribly helpful. There weren't dual threat QB's in this league during the super bowl era in any #'s worth mentioning until around 20 years ago. Fifty years ago it was Tarkington? Anyone else? Was Vince Evans a runner? I can't remember. In the eighties Cunningham stuck out because he was Cunningham, and there was Young too, but he was run last, in the nineties there weren't any that I can recall until McNair. Then Vick arrived in 2000, eventually Vince Young, RGIII etc. The running QB thing has only been a thing at more than what, 5-10% of the league's starters #'s over the last 15-20 years, mostly because the league perpetually tried to turn these guys into other positions. Charlie Ward gave up football because he wasn't going to be allowed to play QB, Terrelle Pryor, the same, Lamar was asked similar questions, over and over and over.

So w/regards to your premise, I think your right from the perspective of the past, but wrong in the present, and I think where your right is mostly confirmation bias. The league didn't want to use dual threat QB's as QB's, they wanted to convert them into other positions w/only rare exceptions and that preference basically meant there were next to zero running QB's for nearly 60% of the Super Bowl era. The problem is that in recent years, over and over and over again, you're seeing dual threat QB's in Super Bowls. Russell Wilson, Kap, Jalen Hurts, Lamar hasn't gotten there but he's gotten close repeatedly....if you look at the final fours which is my preference:

2023: 2 of 4 were mobile QB's

2022: 2 of 4 were mobile QB's

2021: 1 of 4 were mobile QB's

2020: 2 of 4 were mobile QB's (3 if you count Rodgers)

2019: 2 of 4

 

So I don't know, I find myself sort of half agreeing with you, because honestly, I dont care that Jayden can run, I care that Maye is plenty elusiveness, and Daniels is rail thin. But otoh, I don't agree w/the idea that the NFL is passing on these guys, the NFL is no longer interested.

 

This class every single one of the QB's is either mobile, or highly mobile or like Penix, a pocket guy with ridiculous speed if he wants to use it. In '23, Young was reasonably fast but didnt use it, while Richardson is absolutely a weapon. Howell, the only QB worth a ---- from '22, is definitely mobile, so was Pickett, who I always figured would be a bust (had a really famous fake kneel down run, In '21 every single one of the QB's that went off the board was mobile, and the top guys were all either mobile, or elite runners. In '20, I think Tua was mobile before the injuries, can't remember with Herbert, Burrow not really. 2019 Danny Dimes chief selling point was mobility, and Kyler, the #1 guy was elite. In '18, Baker, Josh Allen, and Lamar were all mobile. In '17 Mahomes and Watson and Trubisky were all mobile.

 

The League has moved from pure pocket guys to mobile QB's with at bare minimum, like young Joe Montana/Joe Theismann level ability and preferentially, more running skill than that. The days of the pocket guy, period, have been over for quite a while. I think the league wants both pieces, and honestly, I think they'd rather have a runner they can coach up on throwing like Hurts, than a pure pocket guy with stone feet that has no mobility. Definitely feel torn, I sorta half agree with you, but I find the reasoning faulty, and I also think the league is moving away from where you think it's sticking, and the answer is in the playoffs and the draft preferences with classes. More and more and more mobile to legit dual threat QB's at the top of classes, and heavy in day 1 picks. Suggests there's a new direction happening here and while there's still a place for Bledsoe's and Brady's, they aren't the preference as raw prospects anymore. 

[FootballZombie]

13 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

 

Dying after that one. lol

 

As a Zombie let it be known that I am a brain man.

[skinsfan66]

2 hours ago, jg77 said:

Daniels is going to be really good for us.  He reminds me of a taller Kyler Murray.

 

I don't see the Allen or Herbert comp for Maye.  He reminds me so much of Blake Bortles with that long windup.  I hope he ends up in a situation where he can sit at least a full year and sort out his mechanics.

I hope we can do a lot better than Kyler Murray?    

[skinsarethebest]

3 hours ago, SoCalSkins said:

I really want to do that for Daniels. I’m  a UCLA guy and hate all things USC but if we had somehow ended up with Caleb I would be all in with him. I am 100% on board with Maye and even if they get crazy and we end up with JJ or Penix or Nix I would be cheering those guys.
 

Daniels is going to take work for me. I really dislike the guy. I just see him as a guaranteed injury and bust waiting to happen and I don’t like his attitude or his mom throwing teammates under the bus. But I will give Peters and DQ the benefit of the doubt and suck it up reluctantly eventually before the season starts. 

Quite the opposite for me.  I find him likable for a simple reason: apparently he has a work ethic (and a hunger for film study) that rivals Brady….    That’s the kind of QB I want to build my team around.   Maye strikes me as more of the frat boy type who would prefer going to UNC basketball games than staying up late studying film in the film room.

[kingdaddy]

Randall Cunningham lost in the NFC Championship game on the infamous missed Gary Anderson FG at home in Minnesota which robbed us of what would've been a great SB between Elway and Randall. Randy Moss's rookie season, Minnesota broke the 83 Skins single season scoring record that year if I'm not mistaken. They choked at home or Randall might have a ring. 

Elway never won a ring until he got Terrell Davis and that awesome running game.....before that he was pretty much a one man show. Tremendous athlete, incredible arm strength and good runner. 

[mistertim]

8 minutes ago, skinsarethebest said:

Quite the opposite for me.  I find him likable for a simple reason: apparently he has a work ethic (and a hunger for film study) that rivals Brady….    That’s the kind of QB I want to build my team around.   Maye strikes me as more of the frat boy type who would prefer going to UNC basketball games than staying up late studying film in the film room.

 

This is either super lazy or super biased. Everything I've ever read about Maye says he's an extremely hard worker, film junkie, very smart. He and Daniels are basically equal on that front, from any sources you can find.

[zCommander]

4 hours ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

Correct. I am committing, right now, that I will allow each and every one of you to whack me in the balls with a car antenna as hard as you possibly can if we draft anyone besides Drake Maye at #2.

 

Hopefully you are no longer in need to father any children lol

[Dah-Dee]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

This isn’t a “get off my lawn” thing.  This is a “you win in the NFL from the pocket for the last 50 years” thing.  It’s still true. Mahomes is first a pocket QB.  So are Herbert and Burrow.  And Purdy. And Tua. And Dak. And Kirk.  And Stafford.  And Goff.  

 

1 hour ago, Jags said:

 

Right.  Fun.  I prefer the same kinds of QBs VOR does.  Guys like Marino and Roethlisberger who would find the 1 square foot of space inside the pocket, stand on it, and get the ball where they wanted it to go, no matter what chaos was going on around them.  But the duel threat guys are fun to watch.  Then we got one and he was an egomaniacal injury machine and now I have PTSD and pleasepleaseplease don't put me through that again... 

 

 

😋

 

I agree with you guys, want Maye and not Daniels. As I've said before in this thread, I love watching Daniels, he's super exciting, I just want to watch him... at a distance. Like in Minnesota. No fingernail-gnawing or teeth-gnashing waiting for a career-ending hit on another Commanders QB thank you very much.

 

Sorry for interrupting ur vry srs convo. 

Edited April 2 by Dah-Dee

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

3 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Hopefully you are no longer in need to father any children lol

Not worried. This is a no risk venture.