The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, MartinC said:

I dont hate Kirk. Hes a good QB and seems a good person overall. Quirky - but a decent human being. 

 

My counter to this would be we would have won the same number of Super Bowls with Kirk as without him and we didn't have to pay $190M (that around what he earned from the Vikings) in that process. Allen botched the whole process not som much in not giving Kirk the guaranteed money the Vikes did but in not either tying him up earlier as a long term viable option on a much cheaper deal or getting full value for a good NFL starting QB in a trade. 

 

Getting value in a trade is likely how I would have tried to go so we had draft assets to try to get a QB who could potentially take us to the Super Bowl. We let Kirk go for a ham sandwich and then have been flailing at the QB spot ever since. Until (possibly) now - and even now that is more by luck than strategy. 

 

Yep, when I judge what happened, I don't look at it with the contract he got with Minny but in the context of them having opportunities to sign him for 24 and then 28 and then according to Jay, Shanny among others said they could have traded him for a first round pick and change. 

 

But with hindsight, I am glad they botched it all.  Seeing Bruce botch things in similar ways with Trent and then having an ex-agent say that's how Bruce also operated incompetely in Tampa added to the pile for his ouster.  Dan no longer having Bruce as a shield arguably helped big time.  So many things contributed to the demise of Dan where he had to sell and IMO them screwing the process up with Kirk, was one of the items among many in that pile. 

 

Now if they bounced back and found a franchise QB then they'd have had the last laugh.  But as it happens most of the time the player-coach leaving gets the last laugh. Even Norv had a better career elsewhere.  Marty had that big season in SD.  Brad Johnson won a SB.  Kyle Shanny is considered by many one of the best in the game.  Trent is with a great team.  On and on and on.  

Edited October 17, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

I don’t think there’s a ton of precedent for guys fixing the sack problem but going from 5 to 3 a game would help. 

[wit33]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The dude who botched his contract and according to Keim among others he didn't like -- Bruce Allen got fired in infamy.  This leam was dead last in QBR after he left, did not have a single winning season.  And the idea that he didn't want to be here while didn't seem cool back then and befuddled some of our fans -- really aged well when we learned he was far from alone on that front and dysfunction was much deeper than we even realized back then. 

 

Hopefully the karma has changed with Dan gone and Howell now starting.   If Howell ends up a more clutch version of Kirk, I'd dig that.  Who doesn't want an elite QB but they don't grow on trees.  this organization has struggled to find even good QBs, so if Howell ends up "just" good, I'd be happy with that.  You can win with good QB play as long as they aren't too expensive.

 

 

He didn't want to stay because he didn't have a fully guaranteed contract. Kirk would have had no problem quarterbacking for this franchise if he had been offered an elite-level contract at the time. Let's be clear, he's no martyr, just a 100% capitalist, lol.

[Conn]

I’m not really convinced that EB is doing anything special to assist in Howell’s development right now, I think Howell is just this guy and it’s the reps that will help him. I guess a ton of difficult passing play reps is what EB is giving Howell to learn from. But with no running game or easy dump offs most of the time, the more I see of this offense the less I feel Howell needs to be tied to it in the future to keep developing. Yes, 3 OC’s in 3 years is generally bad. But I don’t think anything special is generally happening here between EB and Howell, Howell’s successes aren’t being schemed for him—if anything the scheme may be making his life harder given our WR’s struggles breaking open, the lack of quick developing routes or RB dump-offs to combat pressure, etc. 

 

So yeah, the more I think about a new GM pairing someone like Ben Johnson with Howell the less I really care about any potential continuity with EB (which likely isn’t even possible anyways because I don’t see any evidence that he’s HC-worthy or likely to be compatible with the young forward-thinking GM type I expect Harris to covet). 

[dyst]

Why do people get so butt hurt when folks criticize Sam Howell for holding onto the ball too damn long. He DOES hold onto the ball too long, and the LINE does suck. Guess what, both can be true but you don’t hear people crying when the line is criticized. He’s young, he should hopefully improve, but god forbid he is criticized. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

 

 

He didn't want to stay because he didn't have a fully guaranteed contract. Kirk would have had no problem quarterbacking for this franchise if he had been offered an elite-level contract at the time. Let's be clear, he's no martyr, just a 100% capitalist, lol.

 

I know you'd weigh in.       You've liked Bruce, Jay and Ron and typically the status quo whatever it was at that given time but not Kirk, he was the exception.

 

In short, the dysfunction of this franchise was the kicker, icing on the cake according to those covering the team and who know Kirk.    Keim would say it was buffoonish stuff on display that keep bringing it home like they told him they'd send him a new offer this week and then they emailed him the EXACT same offer.  

 

Jay who you like, unless when he says things you don't want to hear, then you ignore him -- but I gather he would know better than most since he was around Kirk, said part of the reason why he wanted to trade Kirk was he was very easy for him to tell that Kirk wanted to leave but Bruce didn't buy Jay's take of that. 

 

But considering you didnt buy the idea that even in peak Dan dysfunction and his cheapiness got even more flagrant -- that none of that would be a deterrent for players wanting to play here.  I get why you think Kirk would have no reason at all either for why not to want to play here.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[wit33]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I know you'd weigh in.       You've liked Bruce, Jay and Ron and typically the status quo whatever it was at that given time but not Kirk, he was the exception.

 

Ninety-seven days ago, you were a fan of Ron, lol, and we both shared an appreciation for the Jays' offense. The folks who are critical of Ron might not be fully convinced you're on their side just yet, lol.

I also supported Bruce for getting the cap situation under control and putting an end to the practice of paying top dollars for underperforming players. My support largely stopped at that point. I openly voiced my criticism of the culture that Bruce oversaw, which is why I strongly supported Alex Smith and his Hall of Fame-worthy intangibles .

 

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

In short, the dysfunction of this franchise was the kicker, icing on the cake according to those covering the team and who know Kirk.    Keim would say it was buffoonish stuff on display that keep bringing it home like they told him they'd send him a new offer this week and then they emailed him the EXACT same offer.  
 

 

 

I have no disagreement these days regarding how they handled contract negotiations with Kirk. I'm not a fan of the team-building approach that involves overpaying mediocre quarterbacks, which is why I found myself aligning with Bruce and Dan. As for the way they conducted things behind the scenes, it's not a major concern. My fundamental disagreement was with paying Kirk and the overall concept of offering average quarterbacks elite-level contracts.

I found it somewhat absurd for Kirk to demand a guaranteed salary after only a strong half-season of football.

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Jay who you like, unless when he says things you don't want to hear, then you ignore him -- but I gather he ould know better than most since he was around Kirk, said part of the reason why he wanted to trade Kirk was he was very easy for him to tell that Kirk wanted to leave but Bruce didn't buy Jay's take of that. 
 

 

I love Jay as an analyst and believe he’s a future star in that space if someone would tap into that or he gives up idea of coaching in the NFL.

 

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

But considering you didnt buy the idea that even in peak Dan dysfunction and his cheapiness get even more flagrant -- that none of that would be a dettered for players wanting to play here.  I get why you think Kirk would have no reason either for why not to play here.

 

We have a distinct perspective on how player signings work in the NFL when it comes to playing for different franchises. 

Kirk's top priority was securing a guaranteed contract, and he would have considered any team, even staying with the poorly managed Washington franchise, to ensure that financial security. Guaranteed dollars were his top priority!

 

This isn't a critique of him, but it didn't align with what I wanted to support, which interestingly put me on the same side as Dan and Bruce, lol.

[Skinsinparadise]

31 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Ninety-seven days ago, you were a fan of Ron, lol, and we both shared an appreciation for the Jays' offense. The folks who are critical of Ron might not be fully convinced you're on their side just yet, lol.

 

 

97 days?  didn't know someone was keeping count.  Thanks for noticing. 

 

you make my point for me.  I am not on anyone's side aside from the team.  I don't care about Bruce, Jay, Shanny, Ron.  My loyalty isn't to them.  And if circumstances change, I change my mind.  And things changed with me with Ron.  I am not alone in this.  @Koolblue13 among others were in the tank for Ron but not after this off season.   I changed my mind on Shanny back in the day, too.  It's cool I think not to be a slave to a position.  Circumstances change.  New things are revealed.  Thoughts change.  It's OK. 

 

I was OK with Jay, didn't love him, didn't hate him.  I didn't think he was a good leader of men or for that matter a good head coach.  I said that in year 1 after he was here.  But at the same time I thought he was a nice guy and was given a bad hand.  And I didn't then and don't now think he's some sort of Village Idiot like some seem to think here.  He's smarter about football than anyone here IMO. 

 

But the bottom line is I am not married to a thought where I just ignore people who were in the middle of the action and know a lot more than me.  It's like someone who witnesses a traffic accident yet I just don't buy their account even though I wasn't even there.  You didn't believe Jay when he said they were offered a first for Kirk and I gather you don't believe him when he's said multiple times that he knew at the time that Kirk wanted to leave.  So if you think a coach who was in the actual battle doesn't know what took place as much as you do than how much do you actually believe in that person -- or how married are you to your preconceptions that its impossible for you to change your mind.

 

31 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

I also supported Bruce for getting the cap situation under control and putting an end to the practice of paying top dollars for underperforming players. My support largely stopped at that point. I openly voiced my criticism of the culture that Bruce oversaw, which is why I strongly supported Alex Smith and his Hall of Fame-worthy intangibles .

 

 

 

There were about 6-7 people that has Bruce's back for MANY years.  You were one of those people.  The criticism of the culture happened when all those stories happened via the WP (and all the Bruce backers bailed at that point) but in the heat of the battle you thought he was doing a decent job.

 

My point isn't to hit you for backing Bruce.  We all sometimes get things wrong.   I am just saying you mostly back the status quo whatever the status quo is.  Heck when so many of us were whining about this organization being toxic and as recent as a year ago and everything being equal FAs wouldn't want to come here with Dan at the helm -- one person was saying this isn't the case at all, that was you. 

 

So relevant to Kirk, I get why you would think there is no reason for him not want to play here.  Becauuse in real time your default position seems to be this is as fine of a place to play as any other team.  

 

You took it up a notch beyond the others who wanted to see Kirk go, you actually thought Bruce played the compensation for him perfectly.  

 

 

31 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Kirk's top priority was securing a guaranteed contract, and he would have considered any team, even staying with the poorly managed Washington franchise, to ensure that financial security. Guaranteed dollars were his top priority!

 

This isn't a critique of him, but it didn't align with what I wanted to support, which interestingly put me on the same side as Dan and Bruce, lol.

 

I got the vibe that they could have found a compromise on that but even if not -- Keim, M. Jones who covered the contract extensively and Jay who was actually present at the time, all believed that Kirk wanted to leave everything being equal.  He specifically didn't like Bruce and that feeling was mutual.  They all shared specific stories about it.  I am sure it was no accident that Kirk called Jay and then Dan when he left but not Bruce.  Maybe Keim, Jay and company are lying about all of that but I see no reason why they would. 

 

But again, water under the bridge.  It means nothing now since all the decision makers are gone.  It would have been weird if Ron successfully trade for Kirk the previous off season when according to Keim they kicked the tires on it with Minny but they didn't want to trade him.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Riggo-toni]

If we're going to rehash the reign of Brucifer, Prince of Dimness, let me kindly remind you all that when he was hired, I equated it to the Niners making Nolan their head coach only because his father had a celebrated history there - and that Brucifer had an even worse draft record in Tampa then Vinny Bugeyes.  People on this board were so elated (I suppose) to be rid of Sir Rot-o, that my thread was shredded by all the ESers.

 

I am bullish on Howell.  He definitely has the athleticism, accuracy and demeanor to be a franchise QB, but I think he needs a good mentor to encourage him to throw the ball away and develop a good mental timeclock.  Some of it too is if the game slows down enough for him to see his checkdowns in time. Everyone this year from the FO to the coaches to the players are getting evaluated for decisions coming when the regime changes at the end of the year.  

Edited October 17, 2023 by Riggo-toni

[Conn]

You’re re-writing history to a degree @wit33 — we could have signed him to a nice, but not record-breaking, contract in that first offseason but lowballed the hell out of him. He wasn’t demanding fully guaranteed money at that point in time. After that he was done even pretending to want to stay on a team ran by Bruce, but more importantly, after that came the Franchise Tags.

 

Once we franchised him, and made it clear we would do the same the following year as some sort of misguided bullying tactic, his agent was rightly able to point to the two fully-guaranteed years for over $50M or whatever it was he had upcoming, no matter what, and say “okay, well those numbers, fully guaranteed, are where negotiations now start”. 
 

In essence we created the “big guaranteed money only” monster in this case and that is what Kirk and his agent eventually finally took into FA with them. And the Vikings bit. 
 

But things didn’t start that way. We could have signed him to a normal upper middle class QB contract (not fully guaranteed) going into the final offseason of his rookie deal. Once he was lowballed and the franchise tags started the following offseason, he was always going to eventually be gone. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Conn

[NewCliche21]

Don't forget that the Osweiler signing totally ****ed up the QB market forever while this was going on.

[FootballZombie]

15 minutes ago, Riggo-toni said:

I am bullish on Howell.  He definitely has the athleticism, accuracy and demeanor to be a franchise QB, but I think he needs a good mentor to encourage him to throw the ball away and develop a good mental timeclock.  Some of it too is if the game slows down enough for him to see his checkdowns in time. Everyone this year from the FO to the coaches to the players are getting evaluated for decisions coming when the regime changes at the end of the year.  

 

He needs a coach that will help protect and teach him rather than burn the wicks at both ends and watch him die faster. I think its unlikely he gets the oppo to turn into much of anything if the gameplan hovers around "maximize the damage the kid takes".

 

I really hope we see greater effort to limit his abuse moving forward. There is some good stuff to mold with in there, but you cant do anything with a broken pot.

[Koolblue13]

55 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

Don't forget that the Osweiler signing totally ****ed up the QB market forever while this was going on.

What a weird piece of NFL history. Sorry you remember that. 

[MartinC]

Tracking rookie and fist year QBs. Howell looking very good versus the field right now.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/grading-nfls-next-generation-of-qbs-week-6-sam-howell-has-efficient-low-volume-performance-in-road-win/

 

[wit33]

1 hour ago, Conn said:

You’re re-writing history to a degree @wit33 — we could have signed him to a nice, but not record-breaking, contract in that first offseason but lowballed the hell out of him. He wasn’t demanding fully guaranteed money at that point in time. After that he was done even pretending to want to stay on a team ran by Bruce, but more importantly, after that came the Franchise Tags.

 

He was demanding a fully guaranteed contract right from the start, he shared this on radio station Minnesota years ago. Slight chance I’m misremembering, but remember hashing this out in the Kirk Cousins thread that was wildly entertaining that was mistakenly removed lol
 

I will attempt to dig it up.  

 

 

 

[Conn]

19 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

He was demanding a fully guaranteed contract right from the start, he shared this on radio station Minnesota years ago. Slight chance I’m misremembering, but remember hashing this out in the Kirk Cousins thread that was wildly entertaining that was mistakenly removed lol
 

I will attempt to dig it up.  

 

 

 

Not how I remember it—especially since the framework for the fully guaranteed contracts came from the Franchise Tags we ended up putting on him a year later. Maybe they’ve since retconned their side of the story to make them look like negotiating geniuses in hindsight, but a year before that first franchise tag it was widely reported that Bruce insulted the hell out of him with a terrible lowball offer when they could actually have gotten a 3-5 year deal done. The fully guaranteed stuff came later, after the Franchise Tags changed the whole game and gave them a new framework to operate from. 

[wit33]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

97 days?  didn't know someone was keeping count.  Thanks for noticing. 

 

you make my point for me.  I am not on anyone's side aside from the team.  I don't care about Bruce, Jay, Shanny, Ron.  My loyalty isn't to them.  And if circumstances change, I change my mind.  And things changed with me with Ron.  I am not alone in this.  @Koolblue13 among others were in the tank for Ron but not after this off season.   I changed my mind on Shanny back in the day, too.  It's cool I think not to be a slave to a position.  Circumstances change.  New things are revealed.  Thoughts change.  It's OK. 
 

 

 

Just to clarify, I have reservations about being overly optimistic regarding Ron. I was among the early critics, taking issue with his lackadaisical approach in the beginning, his ego in terms of public perception, and his messaging to the media.

I'm a strong advocate for continuity, believing that competence coupled with continuity in the NFL can elevate a team above the 15-20 others constantly churning and making changes year after year.

 

Compared to Jay, I find myself more optimistic about Ron. This is because I see him as a capable leader of both men and the team, resulting in minimal drama and good cohesion.

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I was OK with Jay, didn't love him, didn't hate him.  I didn't think he was a good leader of men or for that matter a good head coach.  I said that in year 1 after he was here.  But at the same time I thought he was a nice guy and was given a bad hand.  And I didn't then and don't now think he's some sort of Village Idiot like some seem to think here.  He's smarter about football than anyone here IMO. 
 

 

Agree 100% with all of this. 

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

But the bottom line is I am not married to a thought where I just ignore people who were in the middle of the action and know a lot more than me.  It's like someone who witnesses a traffic accident yet I just don't buy their account even though I wasn't even there.  You didn't believe Jay when he said they were offered a first for Kirk and I gather you don't believe him when he's said multiple times that he knew at the time that Kirk wanted to leave.  So if you think a coach who was in the actual battle doesn't know what took place as much as you do than how much do you actually believe in that person -- or how married are you to your preconceptions that its impossible for you to change your mind.

 

When Jay mentioned the possibility of multiple first-round picks and other selections, it gave the impression that he was merely speculating.

As it turns out, Shanny seemed more inclined to part with draft assets beyond just a 3rd round pick and a guaranteed contract. I must admit I was mistaken in my initial assessment. Though, John Lynch wasn’t signing off on anything crazy IMO

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

There were about 6-7 people that has Bruce's back for MANY years.  You were one of those people.  The criticism of the culture happened when all those stories happened via the WP (and all the Bruce backers bailed at that point) but in the heat of the battle you thought he was doing a decent job.

 

No, I consistently pointed out the poor culture from the very beginning and the potential negative impacts it could have on the organization. However, I firmly believed that a team can often overcome such challenges. This is precisely why I placed a high value on Alex Smith and, to a lesser extent, Peterson during their brief stints here. They brought an instant identity and a stronger team culture.

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

My point isn't to hit you for backing Bruce.  We all sometimes get things wrong.   I am just saying you mostly back the status quo whatever the status quo is.  Heck when so many of us were whining about this organization being toxic and as recent as a year ago and everything being equal FAs wouldn't want to come here with Dan at the helm -- one person was saying this isn't the case at all, that was you. 
 

Yeah, I believe that, for the most part, players prioritize securing their financial futures, and each offseason provides evidence of this.

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

So relevant to Kirk, I get why you would think there is no reason for him not want to play here.  Becauuse in real time your default position seems to be this is as fine of a place to play as any other team.  
 

No, any other team willing to offer him a historically large guaranteed contract.

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

You took it up a notch beyond the others who wanted to see Kirk go, you actually thought Bruce played the compensation for him perfectly.  
 

 

I argued and questioned at the time what the value should be for a full season of what some in this area were considering elite QB play. 

 

What, in your opinion, is the equivalent draft compensation for a full season of Kirk Cousins, especially considering the final game against the Giants with a chance at the playoffs?

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

I got the vibe that they could have found a compromise on that but even if not -- Keim, M. Jones who covered the contract extensively and Jay who was actually present at the time, all believed that Kirk wanted to leave everything being equal.  He specifically didn't like Bruce and that feeling was mutual.  They all shared specific stories about it.  I am sure it was no accident that Kirk called Jay and then Dan when he left but not Bruce.  Maybe Keim, Jay and company are lying about all of that but I see no reason why they would. 
 

Toward the end, there was no doubt that both parties were done with each other. The Vikings are soon to part ways with him.

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

But again, water under the bridge.  It means nothing now since all the decision makers are gone.  It would have been weird if Ron successfully trade for Kirk the previous off season when according to Keim they kicked the tires on it with Minny but they didn't want to trade him.

 

 

Yuck! Entitled quarterbacks in their 30s with families don’t sit well with me. I can’t wait for his next regime to deal with his demand for Tuesdays off.

Edited October 17, 2023 by wit33

[Skinsinparadise]

18 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Yeah, I believe that, for the most part, players prioritize securing their financial futures, and each offseason provides evidence of this.

 

 

Agree with this but money can often be similar in FA pursuits.  And what some agents of players specifically told Standig was everything being equal they would steer their players away from this team.  Shanny shared with a beat reporter that if he could avoid it he wouldn't even show a FA the facility, they'd take him right to dinner because they thought it would hurt their ability to sign that player.  Add that with Dan's toxic reputation and the history of losing with this franchise -- this wasn't a destination spot and some agents said indeed it did matter. 

 

Some said that there were QBs this team had interest in and they had no interest in coming here alas Stafford, Wilson, etc. 

 

 

18 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

 

I argued and questioned at the time what the value should be for a full season of what some in this area were considering elite QB play, and it turned out to be a 3rd round pick.

 

 

OK, that's cool, but you were alone with that thought.  Even the other Krik haters didn't agree with that.  And that was proven incorrect.  And you were very feisty about the point too, every time I'd bring it up, just one person, you, would feel compelled to scud missle that point each time. 

 

18 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Toward the end, there was no doubt that both parties were done with each other. The Vikings were soon to part ways with him.

 

 

 

Yep after 6 years, 2 big contracts, and him being 36 next season, its time for them to move on and rebuild.

 

18 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

 

 

Yuck! Entitled quarterbacks in their 30s with families don’t sit well with me. I can’t wait for his next regime to deal with his demand for Tuesdays off.

 

 

Kirk's work ethic is insane.  You could see that in the QB series for Netflix.  And thats his rep.  He probaby overprepares.  So I doubt Ron gave a rats behind about Tuesday off.  Most practices happen on Wednesday regardless.

 

Having said that I am glad that Minny turned Ron down.  I don't want a 35 or older QB.  It's part of the reason why I didn't want Alex either and he was even a little younger if I recall, 34.  Unless its an elite QB with insane good health habits like Tom Brady.,

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[wit33]

21 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree with this but money can often be similar in FA pursuits.  And what some agents of players specifically told Standig was everything being equal they would steer their players away from this team.  Shanny shared with a beat reporter that if he could avoid it he wouldn't even show a FA the facility, they'd take him right to dinner because they thought it would hurt their ability to sign that player.  Add that with Dan's toxic reputation and the history of losing with this franchise -- this wasn't a destination spot and some agents said indeed it did matter. 
 

 

Washington used to be a prime destination for free agents before Bruce's tenure. What am I missing? Same terrible facilities back then. 

Players had a strong fondness for Dan. Let's not confuse our fan perspective of him; Dan was known for his willingness to spend significant amounts of money on players.

 

 

21 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Some said that there were QBs this team had interest in and they had no interest in coming here alas Stafford, Wilson, etc. 

 

 

Washington wasn't the preferred choice over the Rams, but you win some and you lose some. Washington remained competitive throughout the process. Locations like Miami and Dallas may miss out on players, despite the lack of state taxes.

Ultimately, where an older QB has the best chance to win and maximize their earning potential is where they'll land.

 

21 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

OK, that's cool, but you were alone with that thought.  Even the other Krik haters didn't agree with that.  And that was proven incorrect.  And you were very feisty about the point too, every time I'd bring it up, just one person, you, would feel compelled to scud missle that point each

 

 

I'd love to hear Dan and Bruce's side of the story someday. The Shannys aren't exactly known for taking the high road. Mike has a history of playing the victim and shifting blame, both in Denver and Washington

 

21 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Yep after 6 years, 2 big contracts, and him being 36 next season, its time for them to move on and rebuild.

 

That sounds about right; he'll leave with over $150 million, while fans might feel like they've been shortchanged. Good for him. 

 

 

21 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

Kirk's work ethic is insane.  You could see that in the QB series for Netflix.  And thats his rep.  He probaby overprepares.  So I doubt Ron gave a rats behind about Tuesday off.  Most practices happen on Wednesday regardless.

He’s likely to shed that entitlement at his next destination, similar to what Russell is experiencing in Denver with Peyton. They’re cut from the same cloth.

 

21 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Having said that I am glad that Minny turned Ron down.  I don't want a 35 or older QB.  It's part of the reason why I didn't want Alex either and he was even a little younger if I recall, 34.  Unless its an elite QB with insane good health habits like Tom Brady.,

 

 

 

 

Why not? Kirk will be the same dude for another couple years. 

[FootballZombie]

22 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Washington used to be a prime destination for free agents before Bruce's tenure. What am I missing? Same terrible facilities back then. 

 

Even if it was because we were hanging onto the dregs of past glory, we were relevant. We had one of the biggest fan bases. We were one of the premier NFL franchises.

 

That pretty much fully evaporated in the Bruce era. We were scummy, unexciting and provided nothing in the way of player perks or riled up base.

[Skinsinparadise]

[DWinzit]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Dang, I feel like I've heard this about the OL someplace before 😊

[Skinsinparadise]

56 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Washington used to be a prime destination for free agents before Bruce's tenure. What am I missing? Same terrible facilities back then. 

 

 

What are you missing?  That the world doesn't stand in time.   Going back to that era -- its like saying AOL is a hot email vehicle, who says otherwise what am i missing?  

 

Yeah 15 years ago the facilities and Fedex wasn't nearly as passe as they are now in comparison.    They were closer to brand new back then and plenty of other teams have built new facilities and stadiums in that period to make Fedex to look a lot worse over time, ditto the facilities.

 

And as for Dan, he liked to sell in his younger years, he's learning and he's not the same.   Dan 15 years ago was seen as brash but still had some possibilities.   Dan at the end of his tenure was cemented as a big time sleazy loser and a dude who was cheap as to spending money on the extra things that so many other owners spend money on.  

 

It's like saying this dude is a D student but he's new so give him some time and he will elevate his game.  But then when you give them another 15 years of D performances, you know that's what this guy is indeed loser -- no ambiguity, its a cemented fact.  And that's before delving into all the sleaze stories that surfaced later in Dan's career but didn't exist in the Cerrato era or even in real time during the Bruce era.

 

56 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Ultimately, where an older QB has the best chance to win and maximize their earning potential is where they'll land.

 

 

OK, as to winning how would that apply here?

 

56 minutes ago, wit33 said:

He’s likely to shed that entitlement at his next destination, similar to what Russell is experiencing in Denver with Peyton. They’re cut from the same cloth.

 

 

Reading about them, they are two very different cats.    Both though introverts.

 

56 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

 

Why not? Kirk will be the same dude for another couple years. 

 

Because rebuilding teams don't do so around 36 year old QBs.  Yeah Tom Brady played forever put he's closer to an outlier versus the norm.  When you get past 35 plenty of QBs started losing it, see Eli, Dan Marino, Matt Ryan, etc. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

21 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I really don’t get this line of thinking. 
 

Are we basically saying that Sam is the most unlucky QB in recent NFL history because not only does he have the worst OL in the NFL but he also had the worst OL in college as well? To me, if a guy struggles at something in college and then gets in the league and does the same thing, I’m going to look at him as the common denominator. Some guys are just sack magnets. Sure you can hypothetically draft/acquire 5 studs and put them in front of him but if he can’t maneuver a pocket, will it matter? I really don’t know at this point. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

[Stone Cold]

I think by the time our new ol starts to gel will be just about the time young Sam has mastered the playbook & the game has slowed down.  Hopefully by then, our defense has improved as well

 

…new as in after this offseason 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Stone Cold